Hey guys and gals,

I'm setting my car up for street/racing use and i'm not sure about the spring rates and sway bar combo's on the rear.

andyrew, i think, has 180lb springs and no swaybar. he gets around the AX track pretty well. but isn't 180 a bit stiff for street or is it OK with the added V8 weight?

i know going too spring stiff will make streetability low.

keeping stock springs but going large on a sway bar will keep her flat on the ground and retain some spring for streets.

i was thinking of installing adjustable perchs to maintain ride height and keeping stock springs. then getting a rear sway bar and calling it good.


thoughts?

roger

Hi,
I have 180 lbs in the back and they are fine for a 1.7 on the street.

I would say get the adjustable perches like Aaron did, and then it seems that changing spring rates is alot cheaper....they are a standard spring size that Aaron said are available at most racer places.

Try different sizes before you do the rear sway bar...

On a stock 4 cylinder a rear sway bar tends to make the rear a bit to squirrley....but with the added weight of the v8, I would say you might need it..

Rich

For the street, 180 is about equivilant to 140 on a 4 car... Its a good ride.

You need to have good shocks though. Thats what gives you ride quality.

Do NOT keep the stock springs.

I ran a the stiffest stock springs they made (110 I believe) and had to really raise the rear.

I hated the handling. There was more push in that thing then anyone can imagine.

I would either run 180's with no sway bar (better for tracksion)

or 165 progressives and a rear bar you can disconnect. (connect it for the autox and disconnect it for track...)

But you would have to run a pretty stock front setup. maybe a stock sway bar..

Roger, the 180s are a bit light for a track car, but not bad for a dual purpose car. My wifes 350 has 180s and is used primarily for the street with twice a year autocross for fun for her. My V8 car with cage is used about 75% for track and 25% on the street. It now has coilover 250s in the back with 21mm torsions in the front and is just right for the track, but a bit too stiff for the road. My thoughts are 200 lb coilovers (like from Coleman) should work well for a true dual purpose car. (my 2 cents) DLee

Hi Roger,

FWIW, Renegade recommends 21mm T-Bars and 200lbs rear springs, although that sounds like push to me. I have a set of the 200lbs RH springs for JLO when I finish the conversion, but I also have 180's if I think its too stiff.

Rod Simpson likes 165 progressives for street and 180's for a dual purpose car (street/AX).

Just a data point for you.

Thanks,

Bill P.

alright.

let me throw some more data into the mix.

the car just got the 911 front end with stock sway bar.

tires are 8" front and 10" rear.

the car will end up getting camber toe-in adjustments for AX and
switched back to general driving alignment apris (after) racing.

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 2 2006, 12:05 PM)

Hi, I have 180 lbs in the back and they are fine for a 1.7 on the street. I would say get the adjustable perches like Aaron did, and then it seems that changing spring rates is alot cheaper....they are a standard spring size that Aaron said are available at most racer places. Try different sizes before you do the rear sway bar... On a stock 4 cylinder a rear sway bar tends to make the rear a bit to squirrley....but with the added weight of the v8, I would say you might need it.. Rich

fwiw.... im running 22mm tbars and 225's now.....

the 'G spot' setup on the 4 banger was
19mm bars, 140 springs 24mm sway, stopck rear bar....

got a little mo betta with 180's in the rear....

a v8 is what extra 200 lbs????


just experiment.... springs are cheap

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jan 2 2006, 12:15 PM)

Hi Roger, FWIW, Renegade recommends 21mm T-Bars and 200lbs rear springs, although that sounds like push to me. I have a set of the 200lbs RH springs for JLO when I finish the conversion, but I also have 180's if I think its too stiff. Rod Simpson likes 165 progressives for street and 180's for a dual purpose car (street/AX). Just a data point for you. Thanks, Bill P.

just an FYI,

i appreciate your opinions as i know there are many of you who have a fair amount of road racing/AX experience and know what i mean when i say "streetable racing".

is there a specification for "relaxed length" or inner/outer diameter when shopping for these springs? never purchased springs for a 914 before...

sounds like 180 to 200lb springs. no swaybar. or progressive 180's and maybe a stock swaybar????

Go for the adjustable perch kit for the rear, if you do the rear springs are only about $60 per pair and the sky is the limit (they come in 5lb increments) for what weights to get.

On my cars with either Koni's or Bil's I have used Eibach 10 x 2.5 (L x I.D.) springs on the rear.

Bill P.

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Jan 2 2006, 12:32 PM)

Go for the adjustable perch kit for the rear, if you do the rear springs are only about $60 per pair and the sky is the limit (they come in 5lb increments) for what weights to get.

$60 a pair????

Where???

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Jan 2 2006, 12:36 PM)

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Jan 2 2006, 12:32 PM) Go for the adjustable perch kit for the rear, if you do the rear springs are only about $60 per pair and the sky is the limit (they come in 5lb increments) for what weights to get. $60 a pair???? Where???

you NEED threaded perches to utilize a 2.5" ID spring....


hit up ebay for 2.5 ID spring....

i got my 8" afco's for 30 a pair shipped... 225lb rate...

AA

Hey
I've been running 180# springs on my V8 car for a few years. Its a bit bumpy, even with the V8.
Mark

Stock springs and perches. I have a set of 180's I may try. But I think. Sway bars would be enough. No sag or excessive bounce.

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 2 2006, 01:40 PM)

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Jan 2 2006, 12:36 PM) QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Jan 2 2006, 12:32 PM) Go for the adjustable perch kit for the rear, if you do the rear springs are only about $60 per pair and the sky is the limit (they come in 5lb increments) for what weights to get. $60 a pair???? Where??? you NEED threaded perches to utilize a 2.5" ID spring.... hit up ebay for 2.5 ID spring.... i got my 8" afco's for 30 a pair shipped... 225lb rate... AA

OK,

anyone have rear springs with around 180/200lb spring rate
that they want to get rid of cheap?????

also i am in the market for adjustable perches.... but need to measure shocks first....

aaron,
are your 225lb springs tolerable on the street???

Rich it was a handful at the wcc track, wasnt it? Whomever drove it (I remember you didnt..) wasnt cornering as well as mine was.. but I do know. it was a BLAST chasing your car around!

Most fun I had all day was that half of a lap!!

(still remember it)


Rogger, get the threaded perches from Coleman. Also their springs are 50 a piece, any rate. If your going with a sway bar on the rear.. and you dont want alot..
Although I rather think that running 165 progressives on the street would be a very nice ride. then hook up the sway bar for autox if you need the rear to rotate (truse me... you will want it).

Andrew

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 2 2006, 01:52 PM)

Stock springs and perches. I have a set of 180's I may try. But I think. Sway bars would be enough. No sag or excessive bounce.

Rick,

how's the handling of the alien?

it just seems that my rear is sagging a bit...

my rear shocks are in fair/good condition.

i don't mind going stiffer springs, but if i can have a smoother ride and just put a sway bar on, then that would be best for what i'm looking for.

didn't mueller put up something on how to make home made adjustables?? (now i need to do a search....
)

I have a -4 with 250lb rear springs (22mm torsion and 22 swaybar up front). On AZ roads it is great, on the jacked up socal freeways it got tiring pretty quickly.

Over two years ago Brad suggested nothing less than 225 lbs springs when he worked on my car. He said the 180's I bought from Weltmeister 20 years ago were fully collapsed and to get a set from Renegade. Scott @ Renegade said "his" springs were actually 190 lbs. but would work fine and to tell Brad the were 200s. They list 200 lbs on their site so maybe they changed and BJ can confirm that. They are mounted on Bilstein adjs perches not threaded collars. He recommended the largest front bar I can get which is why I went 22mm. No rear bar recommended...

on Simpson site:

QUOTE

$ 78.00 -  Rear Springs: 914 145 lbs. per inch progressive rate rear springs (180 lbs. per square inch when completely compressed).

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Jan 2 2006, 02:57 PM)

I have a -4 with 250lb rear springs (22mm torsion and 22 swaybar up front). On AZ roads it is great, on the jacked up socal freeways it got tiring pretty quickly.

i have 22's ans 225's.....
havent driven it yet.....

180's were fine on the street.... very nice ride...not too stiff...but stiff enough.


BTW- you cant (to my knowledge) put threaded collars on BOGE shocks....they dont have the circlip engagement like koni's/bills

felix,

as much as i'd love to go 225lb springs, this will be a street car also.

i'm experiencing full compression on my stock springs right now. talk about rattling your teeth.....


i have a thing for gas cartridges and infinite adjustability....

looks like i'll have to spend a few C notes and "spring" for the koni adjustables, threaded perches, and some 180's.

so last question for this thread....

should i go to parts pricer???? ebay????

do you need them to be adjustable?

im more than content with my bills....

shox.com for the shocks or pelican....

colemaracing.com for the threaded perches (get OD of shocks so you get the right collar kit...)

EBAY for the springs

gl on ebay for the springs...

I do it every day.... lol

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Jan 2 2006, 06:12 PM)

gl on ebay for the springs... I do it every day.... lol

i payed 34 bucks shipped for a pair of new ones....

guessed you missed that pair

Roger,

Great job on the new calendar! I bought FIVE..... I drive my car 85% on the track and about 15% on the street. Following please find my specs: 400 pound springs are a little rough around town, but I sure like them on the track!

Dan

1970 Factory 914-6, 3.6 993 Engine, 50MM PMO Webers, Electromotive Twin Plug Crank Fire, Aasse RSR Valve Springs with Titanium Retainers, WEB Euro Spec Grind Camshafts, PatrickMotorsports 1 3/4" Jet Coated Racing Headers with PatrickMotorsports Silencers, 901 Converted Side Shift Transmission with Factory 904 Main Shaft and Short Gears, Billet Aluminum Intermediate Plate, 225MM PatrickMotorsports Racing Clutch, PatrickMotorsports RSR Billet Aluminum Flywheel, Quaiffe LSD with Billet Side Plate, PatrickMotorsports Solid Transmission Mounts, Tilton Transmission Pump System with HD Fluidyne Oil Cooler, B&B 930 Front Mounted Engine Oil Cooler with Thermostat, 911 Front Suspension with Aluminum Cross Brace, Porsche Twin Turbo Brakes and Rotors Front and Rear, Pagid Racing Pads, 23MM Gun Drilled Front Torsion Bars, 930 Turbo Tie Rods, Charley Front Sway Bar, Porsche Factory Rear Sway Bar, RSR Threaded Front Bilstein Struts and Sport Valved Shocks, Eibach 400lb Rear Coilovers, Racers Group Adjustable Monoball Upper Strut Mounts, Poly-Graphite Suspension Bushings, 23MM Master Cylinder, 17 X 9 & 17 X 10 Kinesis Polished 3 Pc. Wheels, 914-6GT Chassis Stiffening Kit, 914-6GT Boxed Rear Suspension, RennShift Performance Shifter with Steve's Custom Fab Linkage, Full Chrome-Moly Cage, Porsche Factory GT Flares Butt Welded, 5Five5 Composite Front and Rear Hoods and Bumpers. Terazoom Quick Release Steering Hub. MOMO Prototipo Steering Wheel, MOMO Competizione Shift Knob, MOMO Composite Racing Seats, SPA Fire Suppression System, Patrick Motorsports 914 Fuel Safe Fuel Cell, Boman Graphics, built by Steve Aven Orange, CA

QUOTE (xitspd @ Jan 2 2006, 06:26 PM)

Roger, Great job on the new calendar! I bought FIVE..... I drive my car 85% on the track and about 15% on the street. Following please find my specs: 400 pound springs are a little rough around town, but I sure like them on the track! Dan

geez dan,

you've got yourself a virtual smorgasbord of stuff on that ride.

and excellent taste in calendars i might add.

a little stiff for a street car but i bet she's hell on wheels a laguna seca.

got a few koni sports w/adjustable perch's laying around the shop ya' need to get rid of???


best regards,
roger

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Jan 2 2006, 01:29 PM)

Rich it was a handful at the wcc track, wasnt it? Whomever drove it (I remember you didnt..) wasnt cornering as well as mine was.. but I do know. it was a BLAST chasing your car around! Most fun I had all day was that half of a lap!! (still remember it) Rogger, get the threaded perches from Coleman. Also their springs are 50 a piece, any rate. If your going with a sway bar on the rear.. and you dont want alot.. Although I rather think that running 165 progressives on the street would be a very nice ride. then hook up the sway bar for autox if you need the rear to rotate (truse me... you will want it). Andrew

Ed Marrow (ejm) drove it around. He said he didn't want to break it. I didn't care. I trust him. The car is a handful.

When I drove it 90% of the handling was the driver. I'm a work-a-holic. I don't do AX's or track days. On my time off I like to build things. I'm more of a builder than a driver. Chris Julian and I were talking about that at the track. He rarely gets a chance to drive his car, much less track the beast.

To give you an idea about how long I have been building and changing my car, I purchased the tires in 1993... So I was driving on old hard tires, with no sway bars, and stock springs. One good thing is I had the torque to throttle steer the car when I got sideways on that left hair pin type turn... 914RS was riding with me. I think I made him Nervous...

The idea behind my build is to end up with a car that is close to what MY IDEA of a V8 914 would have been, if Porshe built it in the 70's. So I've limited my parts purchases by default. But I'm sure without a dout it will only get better. Not the best it could be but better.

I'm lacking the details like sway bars, stiffer springs, and torsion bars, but their coming. I don't want to over kill the springs before I add the bars. So I hope to get to that this winter. My point is that if you just drive the car the stock 4 parts will work.

If your a serious Track guy or AX'er I'd say go Dan's direction. I'll never have the time or the weather to spend any real time tuning my chassis or suspension. So my goal is to improve my handling a little each year.