is one type of helmet truly safer than the other, or is it just a matter of preference?

I wanna hear this too.

After you have seen a sway bar arm come off in a race and bury itself in the front hood of the car behind or parts fly at a driver on impact with safety railing.....I'll take the full face w/shield and that's exactly what I own................

QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:28 AM)

After you have seen a sway bar arm come off in a race and bury itself in the front hood of the car behind or parts fly at a driver on impact with safety railing.....I'll take the full face w/shield and that's exactly what I own................

Is that why your face is so ugly?







For auto cross I have an open face helmet. When/if I start going to the track, I'll get the real thing.

QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:28 AM)

After you have seen a sway bar arm come off in a race and bury itself in the front hood of the car behind or parts fly at a driver on impact with safety railing.....I'll take the full face w/shield and that's exactly what I own................

but i've seen your mug, there's always room for improvement

seriously, thanks for the reply, never thought about road debris as a hazard

An open face is probably adequate in most cases. I always use a full-face, but primarily because my helmets do multiple duty (kart, AX, bike), and I'd only wear a full face on a kart or a bike. For an AX only helmet where you have a 5/6 point harness and a windshield in front of you, an open face should be fine. Even the Dakar guys are mostly using open face helmets, and they're bouncing around and rolling all over the place...

If you only want to buy ONE helmet, though, a full face is safer and more versatile.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 12 2006, 11:35 AM)

An open face is probably adequate in most cases. I always use a full-face, but primarily because my helmets do multiple duty (kart, AX, bike), and I'd only wear a full face on a kart or a bike. For an AX only helmet where you have a 5/6 point harness and a windshield in front of you, an open face should be fine. Even the Dakar guys are mostly using open face helmets, and they're bouncing around and rolling all over the place... If you only want to buy ONE helmet, though, a full face is safer and more versatile.

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 11:18 AM)

is one type of helmet truly safer than the other, or is it just a matter of preference?

At the speeds you'll be going, no need for a helmet. Sorry, couldn't resist.

And what rating for A/X?

QUOTE (MW 914 @ Jan 12 2006, 11:38 AM)

At the speeds you'll be going, no need for a helmet.  Sorry, couldn't resist.

coming from the guy with a monster 1.8 liter engine and shifting problems..............

not to mention fake fuchs and a little wee-wee(so i've heard)

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 11:41 AM)

coming from the guy with a monster 1.8 liter engine and shifting problems..............   not to mention fake fuchs and a little wee-wee(so i've heard)

Yeah but I lightened the car up with the bumper swap AND the fake plastic wheel center caps so my my 1.8 is faster than most. Oh yeah, my car is yellow too!

no comment on the shifting and small er.....nevermind.

QUOTE (Headrage @ Jan 12 2006, 12:39 PM)

And what rating for A/X?

Snell 2005, either auto or motorcyle in Region 15 of the PCA, POA or whatever the hell they call it.

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 12 2006, 12:30 PM)

Is that why your face is so ugly?

Since you spend all of your time with your head stuck up your ass, I'm not really sure what you are commenting on!




NEXT

For autox, it's not that important. But if you're gonna take it to the track? My favorite saying from Bell many years ago was this:

"If you have a $10 head, get a $10 helmet."

If and when you make an off-course excursion at the track the chances are very high that it will kick up a lot of debris. That debris -will- get in the car, and hit you in the face if you're not wearing a shield. Then, there's the more serious issue if you actually -hit- something.

I would much rather have a full face helmet onmy head if I ever actually have to USE it.

Even at an autox, a spin will kick up a lot of dust, and in an open car, that dust and dirt will find your face with considerable ease...

Have worn a full face for years, and will continue to do so at any track events. I think I'll be getting an open face though for autox...

-Josh2

QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:45 AM)

Snell 2005, either auto or motorcyle in Region 15 of the PCA, POA or whatever the hell they call it.

Does it matter if it's M or SA?

For SCCA events it needs to be SA. I vote full face with sheild if you ever plan on doing any sort of DE or track stuff. I mainly AX now, but went with full face w/shield because I know I will do track stuff some time.

If you plan on any time on the track, be sure to get a SA rated helmet, not M rated. SA2005 just came out, so SA2000 helmets are getting sold cheap. They will still be good cert wise for 5 years, and i replace helmets that often anyways

QUOTE (Headrage @ Jan 12 2006, 12:02 PM)

QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:45 AM) Snell 2005, either auto or motorcyle in Region 15 of the PCA, POA or whatever the hell they call it. Does it matter if it's M or SA?

M is motorcycle
SA is auto

the biggest difference is in the fire resistant liner.
most club racing events require SA ratings, but check with your local PCA to see what is required for DE events.

locally, we need to have a snell 2000 and M rated helmets are ok for DE events.

QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:48 AM)

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 12 2006, 12:30 PM) Is that why your face is so ugly? Since you spend all of your time with your head stuck up your ass, I'm not really sure what you are commenting on! NEXT

PCA requires 'SA' ratings. I do believe that NASA and BMWCCA also require 'SA' for DE events.

PCA rules vary from zone to zone, possibly from region to region. Evidently in Indy you need SA for track events. In N. Cal, you can use an M-rated helmet for DE and time trials. As I recall, NASA allowed M-rated helmets on the Big Track, though very possibly not for wheel-to-wheel stuff.

Just about everyone allows M-rated helmets for autoX. I use an open-face helmet, because it's a lot less hassle to deal with (glasses, etc.) than a full-face one. I do realize that there is extra risk in this, but I am fine with accepting that risk.

I wouldn't bother getting a full-face helmet without a face shield. You can always flip it up if you need to!

If I were more serious about getting on track, I would probably find myself an SA-rated full-face helmet. With shield. (Bonus: I could use it at the Kart track, too!)

--DD

QUOTE (jhadler @ Jan 12 2006, 11:48 AM)

"If you have a $10 head, get a $10 helmet."

Could not have said it better. ..

My advise:

Get the best full face helmet with a shield that you can afford.

I use a Bell Dominator which costs around $1,000.00 it is carbon-kevlar constructed = light as hell. It has a SA200 rating and is lined with nomex (fire retardent material).

Legs, arms, ribs, etc... break and are fixable. Heads on the other hand tend to be a little more delicate. DO NOT SKIMP ON YOUR HELMET!

I have a full face and wouldn't do it any other way. I have the Bell model that has a larger eye port. I wear glasses, so there is some hassle with that, but in general it is not a problem. I have removed the visor for now, but may put it back on later.

When autocrossing, I am so focused on driving that I don't even notice I have a helmet on. So I don't know what an open faced model would do for me. I get more distracted by something loose rolling around in the car than anything else.

Sometimes I wonder if Snell is under some level of pressure to keep giving open face helmets the same ratings as closed. I beleive that Snell generally makes changes (tougher) to how they test helmets and at some point I can see open face helmets just not making the cut. Or the standard just has a loophole that allows openface to not be tested in some ways (such as a potential chin or face impact test).

i think everyone has said why they would choose full face, but i haven't seen anyone say why they would choose and open face helmet ?

The $10 head, $10 helmet line wasn't true then, and isn't true today.

Beyond a certain price point, you're no longer paying for more protection by spending more money. You're paying for more comfort, less weight, and bling. That price point can be startlingly low. In some tests, done to to show the actual G loads applied to the skull in a set impact, a plain HJC helmet retailing at under $200 was out-performing helmets costing well over $500 retail.

The motorcycle press has covered this fairly extensively over the last couple of years. There's quite a bit of controversy over the current standards, with Snell getting slammed by some of the researchers that have been working on the subject for decades. The EU standards are now such that they're incompatible with the Snell standards and, by some measures, the EU standards are safer.

Web Bike World is one such site that's covered this, citing a pair of articles in Motorcyclist, all of which read like they were written by grownups.

Buy a $1000 helmet if it makes you feel good, but don't try to convince others that it provides any more protection that a $200 helmet, because chances are better than even it doesn't. It's lighter, and no doubt more comfortable, but not spending the $1K isn't necessarily "skimping" on safety.

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 04:31 PM)

i think everyone has said why they would choose full face, but i haven't seen anyone say why they would choose and open face helmet ?

Your glasses don't fog up or get broken as you try to slip them on after donning the helmet.

They're slightly easier to put on/take off, with or without glasses.

They're generally cheaper.

lighter can be much safer regarding neck/whiplash injuries than a heavier one.

one more question....................

without a roll cage, would an M rated helmet be good enough?

no, IMHO, it's not...don't skimp on the noggin'

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 04:37 PM)

one more question.................... without a roll cage, would an M rated helmet be good enough?

The biggest difference is Fire resistance. SA helmets are all Nomex lined, and M helmets are not. for AX it will be fine, but Most DE's require SA helmets for liability reasons.

Trying to save 50 bucks now will cost you 500 shortly

Do it right, or do it twice

BJH

I don't see why anyone would buy anything other than a closed with a visor. You can flip it up, so that a nobrainer. If your first thought is I'm just going to auto-x, well I've seen some wicked stuff happen at auto-xs, plus what if you want to go carting with your friends, you want to wear somebody elses stinking lice infested POS. What if you decide in a year you want to do a DE or go to a school? But this is just my opinion. I also don't drive in any competition without a HANS, but that is another discussion.

T.C.

Also, IMHO the only reason Dale Earnhart died is because he was wearing an open face.

T.C.

My new lid. Bell GTX 2005 factory Black $475 w/ chin spoiler and rear diffuser - Wine Country Motorsports, Good prices, Great service, on both coasts.

T.C.

OK, someone wanted to know why anyone would bother with an open-face helmet at all. I'll put my foot into that bear trap...

First, note that I do not advocate anyone specifically getting an open-face helmet. I will merely relate my own personal reasons for using one.

As I said, I believe that the risks are higher when wearing my open-face helmet. However, as a lifelong wearer of glasses, I found the hassle factor of dealing with a full-face helmet at autoXes to be very high. It doesn't help that I've got a really huge head (hat size == 7 7/8 or 8). My glasses tend to be very difficult to fit onto my face through the eyeport of a full-face helmet. I damaged the temple of one pair of glasses trying to slide them past the inner padding of one (loaner) full-face, and was not happy about that. When I tried on full-face helmets, I found my glasses reacting similarly to the ones that were damaged.

I also wear earrings. Full-face helmets do not "pull open" as far as open-face ones can around the ears when putting them on. I leave it to your imagination what may have happened to me on this point...

I find open-face helmets to generally be lighter and more comfortable than full-face ones.

They are almost always cheaper.


Now, all that said--if my seat belts release upon an impact, I will wind up needing surgery to reconstruct what's left of my face, and to remove the steering wheel from it. If the belts stretch too much, likewise. If I wind up going through a large cloud of dirt/sand/dust/debris while on track (or rapidly leaving it, much more likely! ) I have much better odds of getting something in my eyes which could cause me serious short-term (or long-term) problems. My chin is one of the primary impact points if anything goes seriously wrong. The risk of all of this is significantly higher on the Big Track than at an autoX.

I feel that I understand these risks, and I feel that the other factors mentioned outweigh them in my particular case. If you choose to get an open-face helmet, you need to understand the risks as well.

--DD

Dave, I can understand the glasses excuse. As far as earrings, I would suggest wearing a balaclava. I wear one no matter what I'm doing and been laughed at, but it's better that ripping my ears off getting my helmets off (especially a Biaffe I had years ago) plus the balaclava holds most of the sweat off my head. I can wash the balaclavas and my helmet is fresher.

T.C.

QUOTE (carr914 @ Jan 12 2006, 05:08 PM)

Also, IMHO the only reason Dale Earnhart died is because he was wearing an open face. T.C.

That's a very controversial statement, and I don't believe it's entirely true. Earnhardt's belts failed because they were installed improperly (a fact that was pointed out to the team more than once by the manufacturer), this allowed him to move forward far more than he would have had his belts worked as designed, so his head and neck were subjected to substantially higher forces than they would have been.

I'm not trying to advocate wearing a cheap open face helmet, but there's no need to inflate or distort facts to fit opinions.

Is an full face helmet safer than an open face helmet? Very probably, in most cases.
Is a lighter helmet safer than a heavier helmet? Maybe.
Is carbon/kevlar helmet safer than a polycarbonate helmet? Not always, no.

For AX, quite frankly, I think a helmet AT ALL is generally overkill, and that you need to wear one is an insurance issue, not an actual safety issue. Accidents are very rare in AX, though they do happen (and yes, I've heard the stories). I'd say you'd a LOT more likely to have a crash driving to or from the event than you are at the event, and I doubt if many of us regularly wear helmets in cars on the street.

Certainly, if AX is your primary goal, then an cheap open face helmet is perfectly acceptable. If you later decide to do a track event or the like later, one of the low-end full face SA-rated Bells will only set you back $300-400 at one of the discounters.

QUOTE (carr914 @ Jan 12 2006, 05:08 PM)

Also, IMHO the only reason Dale Earnhart died is because he was wearing an open face. T.C.

He was Dale you guys.....


He refused to wear a HANS....


No harm no foul...

QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Jan 12 2006, 05:22 PM)

OK, someone wanted to know why anyone would bother with an open-face helmet at all. I'll put my foot into that bear trap... First, note that I do not advocate anyone specifically getting an open-face helmet. I will merely relate my own personal reasons for using one.

spoken like someone married to a lawyer.......

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 12:11 PM)

QUOTE (Headrage @ Jan 12 2006, 12:02 PM) QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:45 AM) Snell 2005, either auto or motorcyle in Region 15 of the PCA, POA or whatever the hell they call it. Does it matter if it's M or SA? M is motorcycle SA is auto the biggest difference is in the fire resistant liner. most club racing events require SA ratings, but check with your local PCA to see what is required for DE events. locally, we need to have a snell 2000 and M rated helmets are ok for DE events.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I believe SA is made for the 'big hit' collision with the roll cage/car interior and M is for the multiple bumps and abasions more common in M/C crashes.

I know my SA is Kevlar/Fiberglass blend and the M's are not. Anyone know for sure?

i think it is the other way around howard. the M is for the big hit and skid on the pavement and the SA is for the multiple whiplash hits on the cage. or so i've been told...................

i'll look it up.

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 06:59 PM)

i think it is the other way around howard. the M is for the big hit and skid on the pavement and the SA is for the multiple whiplash hits on the cage. or so i've been told................... i'll look it up.

Yes, that is correct. M is for Motorcycle. If you get in one crash, its spent. SA is for cars. You can bang on the roll cage for a while before an SA goes bad.

I have to admit, I have missed posting on this site over the past few weeks...

Hi everybody!

I have to say that I have borrowed Brant's helmet and he has removed the face shield and I liked it much better than the helmet I wore that had a shield.

Helmets can get hot - really hot in summer ans the face shields make them even more so. Additionally, if a broken piece of 914 or road debris is coming at your face ar xx+ MPH, I don't think that a face shield is going to make much of a difference.

Greg, stop by or give me a call before you buy. Have a reasonable source for Bell products (assuming she is still in business) I'll check into it. I have one of each but use the open face all of the time now. More comfortable and easier to get your glasses on.

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Jan 12 2006, 06:42 PM)

spoken like someone married to a lawyer.......  :lol2:

Am not! (Not yet, at any rate.... )




...I was told a number of years ago (and I don't know if it is still the case or not) that there were precisely two differences between the "M" spec and the "SA" spec. First, the SA liner had to be fire-resistant material, like Nomex. Second, the SA helmet had to meet all of the "M" tests plus one more. That one was a single impact onto the side of a tube, notionally like the helmet impacting a roll-cage member.

No single-impact vs. multiple-impact, no eyeport differences, nada. (Those may be incorporated into a helmet design, particularly the larger eyeport for the MC helmets, but it is not required in the Snell specs.)

As the speaker said, "I can tell you, as an engineer, that I would find it very difficult indeed to make a structure that would pass all of the other impact tests and would fail the roll-bar impact test. And if it gets to the point where it matters if my helmet liner is fire-resistant or not, I don't think it would really make a difference in the end result."

That was cited as, in part, the justification for PCA Zone 7 not requiring SA helmets for time trial events.

--DD

here's what i did to get a nice shoei helmet.....

went back home to colorado to visit family and friends.

a good buddy had just sold his xj12 murder missle 2001 crotch rocket at the urging of his wife but the 12 month old helmet remained. here are the steps:

1) "so, you sold your bike? want a beer?"

2) "why the hell do you still have your helmet? want a beer?"

3) "i bet someone would give you $100 bucks for your helmet but my wife would kill me. want a beer?"

4) "really? $50 for your $300 shoei helmet? you insist? ok. thanks. want a beer?"



works every time!!!!!

Wearing a full face helmet is better than an open face if you crash a motorcycle. (Ask me how I know.) The rules say I gotta have a SA rated full face helmet w/ shield for the kind of track events I like to do. Even without this requirement, it would still be my choice. I can't think of any good excuse to be a CSOB regarding helmet choice. Pick any of the major brands with a good reputation. Try it on first. They do not all fit the same.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 12 2006, 04:32 PM)

The $10 head, $10 helmet line wasn't true then, and isn't true today. Beyond a certain price point, you're no longer paying for more protection by spending more money.  You're paying for more comfort, less weight, and bling.  That price point can be startlingly low.  In some tests, done to to show the actual G loads applied to the skull in a set impact, a plain HJC helmet retailing at under $200 was out-performing helmets costing well over $500 retail. The motorcycle press has covered this fairly extensively over the last couple of years.  There's quite a bit of controversy over the current standards, with Snell getting slammed by some of the researchers that have been working on the subject for decades.  The EU standards are now such that they're incompatible with the Snell standards and, by some measures, the EU standards are safer. Web Bike World is one such site that's covered this, citing a pair of articles in Motorcyclist, all of which read like they were written by grownups. Buy a $1000 helmet if it makes you feel good, but don't try to convince others that it provides any more protection that a $200 helmet, because chances are better than even it doesn't.  It's lighter, and no doubt more comfortable, but not spending the $1K isn't necessarily "skimping" on safety.

In my expierance, it kinda goes like this:

Me, " I hate my helmet, it is so uncomfortable, it hits my forehead and pinches my cheeks and feels like a bowling ball on top of my head". Hey Paul, would you mind if I try your helmet for a practice run"? After practice, I say "Damn Paul, that helmet is nice! Would you mind if I use it for my next run"? Paul, "Wilson, get your own"!

Now, just as crazyhippie said you are off to the race shop to buy ANOTHER helmet.

1st helmet = $250
2nd helmet = $650

Why not just buy the best 1st, and enjoy your purchase instead of regreting it. As one of my friends put it, "I don't want to be the guy who is pointing at a helmet and saying that one was the one I wanted to buy". Just get the best helmet that you can possibly afford.

Track? Full face all the way for the reasons mentioned above. As for whether or not a full face with shield would protect you from flying debris? Well, it may not stop everything, but even so, it might very well be the difference between a bruise, and reconstructive surgery. I'll take the full face helmet and a shiner over an extended hospital stay any time...

Autox? Open face is not such a bad idea. Not just for the glasses and/or earings reasons. But for HEAT! When you're sitting in your car on the staging line for more than just a minute or two in a full face helmet with the sun beating down on you in 95 degree weather, you really notice the difference between an open and a closed faced helmet.

-Josh2

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 12 2006, 04:32 PM)

Buy a $1000 helmet if it makes you feel good, but don't try to convince others that it provides any more protection that a $200 helmet, because chances are better than even it doesn't.  It's lighter, and no doubt more comfortable, but not spending the $1K isn't necessarily "skimping" on safety.

I justified the grand cause I use it for shifter kart racing. At 125 mph in a kart that is less than 385lbs with me in it running no suspension holding aprox 3gs in a given corner, a fingers distance off of the ground, with the ability to go from zero to 60 in about 3-4 seconds AND it is open wheel racing with as many as 36 karts on the same grid.... Yes, the $1,000 makes me feel better.

Safety, safety, safety is the undisputable rule while racing in any venue.

Find out what SLITS head is made of, and have one fashioned. (likely from an old pine stump)



M