I was told to start a new thread on this one.

I want to remove the head gasket from my 1.7.

Can I remove the head gasket and still use the stock base gasket?

I know there are replacement base gaskets to bring it back to stock compression but, will leaving the stock base gasket raise the compression too much?

I can't find the link to the calculator to look this up.

Sorry if it seems like I'm but thanks for the info

engine calculator

not too sure how thick the head gasket is, I'm taking a wild guess and say it would raise the compression up .5 over what it is now....

best bet is to measure everything or just take a chance.....

the calc. wants to know deck hight and head cc. Where can I find that info?

measuring is the only way to know......if you have access to a factory manual, it "might" tell you want the numbers are or should be for a factory spec engine...

Why would you ever want to remove the head gaskets? The Cap'n

Here we go again.....

I didn't want to make this a eating sesion.

I came upon a thread where Jake( a man who is well respected in this area) had talked about removing them. He made the same statement in my thread about R.P. oil and also said it was recamendedby VW and Porsche.

Since my motor is apart, now is a good time to do it.

and the Cap'n is a dealer trained Porsche mechanic

I think this falls into who is helping you build the motor, install the gasket and have problems and Jake will say "told you so"....don't install the gasket and have problems, the Cap'n will say "told you so"

damned if you, damned if you don't

do what you feel comfortable with......both solutions have been proven to work......

My son was running 12 X 1 CR on an 1800CC E production motor. We did use ARP hardware but no head gasket and even at 7500 RPM never had a leaking problem.

what are the advantags of leaving them in?

QUOTE (toon1 @ Feb 6 2006, 10:59 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 6 2006, 05:24 PM)

QUOTE (toon1 @ Feb 6 2006, 06:08 PM) I didn't want to make this a  :popcorn:  eating sesion.  I came upon a thread where Jake( a man who is well respected in this area) had talked about removing them. He made the same statement in my thread about R.P. oil and also said it was  recamendedby VW and Porsche.  Since my motor is apart, now  is a good time to do it. and the Cap'n is a dealer trained Porsche mechanic I think this falls into who is helping you build the motor, install the gasket and have problems and Jake will say "told you so"....don't install the gasket and have problems, the Cap'n will say "told you so" damned if you, damned if you don't do what you feel comfortable with......both solutions have been proven to work......

Qiuck solution. Do one or the other and don't have any problems. Then tell one of the "i told you so." Then they'll hate you and never want to talk to you again.

This is a very trivial topic. There has obviously been success both ways. If you KNOW what you're doing, then go the advanced route and try the gasketless system. If you have to ask how to measure deck height and head spce, then go with the gasket, like from factory.

And that's probly the only advantage. You won't have to calculate anything and you're less likely to make a mistake. From what I can tell, this is a quick and easy way to change compression ratios, and that's all. ++compreeion= ++octane. Usually.

Extra butter flavor. Mmmmm.

On the other hand.... I want someone to do it and document results before I do it to two or three engines. So, If you want to take the hard route anyway, I'll help ya anyway I can.

Crap, what's with all these kernels in the bottom of the bag! /hijack. Fresh bag please.

QUOTE (Rand @ Feb 7 2006, 12:22 AM)

Crap, what's with all these kernels in the bottom of the bag! /hijack. Fresh bag please.

No more tomfoolery. Eat popcorn and pizza elsewhere! toon1 started this thread because someone told him this was going to be the only way to get lotsa input. And what do you guys let him have??? Me! God knows that he could seriously injure himself or his ancient ancestors with me around!

Thanks for bringing us back to reality Alpha. Seriously now. Ahem. Back to the last question:

What are the advantages to leaving the head gaskets in?

You're democratic, aren't you? Flip-flopper!


Anyway. That was what I was talking about. I can't see any advantages to leaving the head gasket in, except to keep from having to calculate the head space. And I can't find anyone to support/disagree with me.

There used to be an abundance of people around to disagree with me..... That's usually how I learn things the best. Get other people's opinions and then use that to base my own opinions on things. People probly avoid my posts now. Whatya think, Rand?

Alpha...

Your getting IT...

Little by Little.....

Dude, you have me laughing my ass off.....

Thanks..

Twystd1

There is a VERY GOOD example of why NOT to use the gaskets in my engine rebuild video...

I would not use the gaskets if someone held a gun to my head!
Removing them gives a reduction in deck volume of about 4.93cc and typically on a stock bore size thats good for a "Bump up" of CR in the amount of .7:1

So if you have gaskets and have 9.1:1 CR, removing them will yield 9.8:1 CR. The gaskets are roughly .027-.030 thickness, so adding this amount to your deck height will drop the CR back to 9.1:1

I remove all gaskets from all my engines, even the factory was bold enough to admit they screwed up when they released the bulletin calling for the elimination of gaskets in 1981.

we are covering my procedures in todays assembly session for the Hot VWs article.... I gotta go get to work, its going to be a long day and I don't work well with cameras around! (this article is going to be HUGE!)

Alpha,

Were you sent here by the RicerClub to annoy us?

We are not ignoring you by the comments made about the head gaskets.

You inadverdently pushed a hot button for 2 of our engine gurus.

In the past, the head gasket thing has become a bone of contention, with heated arguments and people on both sides of the issue.


Jake is a firm believer in eliminating them.

The Cap'n is a firm believer in putting them in.


Most of us have our opinions either way.


Here's a couple of links to past threads for you to see what has already been covered here.


Head gasket link #1

Head Gasket link #2



That is the reason for all the popcorn and Pizza eating....

Clay,

Well done...

P

QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 7 2006, 08:16 AM)

Clay, Well done... P

I could have done what most of the people here would do...

I.E. "Use the search"

but I figured that I would do the searching and find the threads, 'cause I already know what to look for.


Now back to my

ok, I have read all the comments. Including captn krusty's, Jake is the only person to respond to my question with any type of validity.

The captn. said "why remove them", why not, explain.

I did not realize this was a hot button topic

Can anyone answer this question? what is the CR of a stock 1.7 with dished pistons?

Thanks for all the feedback BTW

If the engine has had any head work (fly cut) done the combustion chamber size may have changed. There is no standard answer to your question. You have to cc your heads or have your machinist cc your heads. Then you have to determine your deck height without shims or gaskets. Then you have to determine what size shims to use for the desired compression ratio. All engines are different and there is no way to know without measuring. Anything else is just a wild ass guess.

I didn't run gaskets based on the recomendations of Len Hoffman & Jake. They did the machine work and I followed their recommended installation proceedure.

QUOTE (toon1 @ Feb 7 2006, 03:22 PM)

The captn. said "why remove them", why not, explain. I did not realize this was a hot button topic Can anyone answer this question? what is the CR of a stock 1.7 with dished pistons? Thanks for all the feedback BTW

The Capn's stand is that they are there for a reason...period....Porsche installed them, yes he's seen the one doc. that claims to remove them, however, it can be interperted a few different ways.........

compression should be 8.3 if stock....don't know if the original 1.7 pistons are dished (if so, are there different versions) or if they are flat or???

you have to measure unless you know for a fact that everything is bone stock and unmolested, even then the tolerances could be plus or minus....

so either measure it or take a chance and throw it together....

Thanks guy's for all the help, I have come to the realiztion that there are too many variables on this subject. I am going to put the HG back in and run it.

When I do the build on my 2.0, NO HG, I will have the time to do all it takes to get it right.

put this one to

The only validity that one should need is the bulletin that VW relseased on the subject.
To date this is the only thing that the Cap'n and I have dis-agreed on! He has his reasons and I have mine, both based on experience and "issues".

Dished pistons were used in a Bus Engine not a 914 . The 914 1.7L had dombed pistons

QUOTE (Al Meredith @ Feb 7 2006, 06:05 PM)

Dished pistons were used in a Bus Engine not a 914 . The 914 1.7L had dombed pistons

from what I understand they where either dished ( 3cc,u.s.) or flat top. The motor I have is a all stock, unmolested, 73 1.7 with 3cc dished pistons.

Hey Jake, do you have the procedure to properly seat the cyl. into the head in your video?

QUOTE

Hey Jake, do you have the procedure to properly seat the cyl. into the head in your video?

No, the video producers edited it out due to time constraints...

It is being covered in the build up I am doing this week with Hot VWs magazine... I just finished prepping the parts for that segment a few minutes ago.. This article is a MUST HAVE for anyone building a performance TIV!

It will be a 5 part series starting in May of this year, the June issue..