Yes, it does sound crazy, but hear me out.......

The oil in the valve covers is perhaps the hottest oil in the motor due to the heat of the heads and the valve train.

The current steel covers have plenty of surface area, but no real air flow and besides steel sucks for heat dissapation....the aftermarket aluminum valve covers benifit from having fins (still not much air to go over them) and from the better heat dis. properties of alum.

Now my thinking is that by adding water channels to an aluminum valve cover, you could help control the heat much better, one could even go a little further with this idea and attach w/screws alum or copper "junction" pieces from the cover to head to transfer heat from the head to the cooler cover.....

A very small radiator could be used and I'm guessing less than a gallon of water would be needed....

Groovy

it works on paper.

now implement it.

I thought about this the other day looking at the small radiators that cool OC'd PCs I was thinking something like wasserboxer heads... electric water pumped maybe to not rob hp,

Mueller - I'll just sit back a wait for Jake's reply

I am pretty sure he won't be on the fence on this idea and MIGHT even have a comment or two on it



** pist - between you and me - I think you are on to something **

Nah, too much work. Cast some jazzy valve covers with big MF fins on them, make outrageous claims of 'reducing valve train temps by 30 degrees' and sell them on eBay for $150 per set. Should cost you about $8 to make

Damn I'm good

Buy a Suby and get over it..................

QUOTE (SLITS @ Feb 15 2006, 09:33 AM)

Buy a Suby and get over it..................

nah, that would be the "smart" thing to do and I didn't get where I'm at today using my brain

There is a web site of a company that makes aircooled planes...

great plains or something like that..google airplane and vw....

They casted a watercooled head...no one fron a bus, but a new casting....looked interesting.

They also have twin plug heads on all the planes...

Rich

mike, i got the new performance products catalog yest. stumbled across the finned aluminum valve covers and the pricing. can i buy them back? jk. i need to do an internet search for some "smart pills".

k

This is the way I see the usefulness of added cooling:

If the net goal is to pull down head temp via additional "localized" cooling, you could set up some oil jets and drains in the valve cover and put it all through a bigger central cooler, or an auxiliary one. While oil may not convect the heat as quickly as an equivalent water flow, you have your choice as far as how fast you want to pump it and how well it gets cooled.

If a valve cover could be made to be a "cold plate", I.E. water cooled, the most important cooling path I can think of would be the contact surface between the head an cover. In this case, it would need to be a precise fit since it can't allow leaks, but any gasketing to seal in oil would defeat the condutive path.


Mike, I'm thinking plan "A" we discussed some time ago is still the best idea. How's the aluminum flowing?

Every Al cover I've ever seen leaked like a bitch and wasn't worth a pinch of rat

How hot do the valve covers actually get? Particularly, what is their temperature rise over ambient?

You guys are missing the point. Who cares? Just make money. Believe me, you make'em, list'em, and the suckers will buy. Look at all those 'miracle' products. Don't give me engineering data.

On thing Mike left out - a water jacket would really quiet the valvetrain noise.

QUOTE (Brian Mifsud @ Feb 15 2006, 09:49 AM)

Mike, I'm thinking plan "A" we discussed some time ago is still the best idea. How's the aluminum flowing?

for the propane torch, I need a POL to OPD adapter or find the correct OPD to npt fitting and build the torch....

How about using a bunch of heatpipes in parallel that lead from the valve covers down to a nice big aluminum heat sink that sits in the flow of air under the car? Sure it will be a pain to design and will probably leak, but at least it would still be air cooled!!!!!

How about a scoop that picks up air from below the engine and shoots it up and around the stock oil 'pan' and diverts some up to the valve covers. You could even make it out of carbon fiber.

-Tony

Or better yet, run a series of peltier pads along with some heatsinks on top. 2-3 300w peltier pads on each side might even make it difficult for the motor to get to temp

I like the peltier idea.

Porsche actually water cooled the heads on turbos back in the mid-70s but just for a while. They found out better ways to deal with the heat and dropped that project. But do some research on that. You could make a whole sleeve kit for the fours to convert over.

And Jetboy!!!

Not to Hijack Mike threads. but .. .Peltier Coolers are extremely inefficient

ie. it take MORE energy to power them than the energy that they move...

So if you wanted to move 400 watts of heat, you'd have to pump in something like 800Watts (760 Watts/hp) and that come off the very meager NET HP the pathetic TYPE IVs generate...


Since most gasoline engines rarely exceed 33% efficiency, that means very very roughly that for 85HP* 64,600 Watts of the energy potential of the gas you are burning becomes mechanical energy... BUT... 195,000-64600= 130,000 Watts of heat need to be gotten rid of (at WOT)....

I kinda doubt the peltiers would do it, and then you've got even more heat to dump. If you had 3 300w peltiers per side, you'd have 1800 watts to come up with, which is 150 amps at 12 volts. Time for another couple alternators.

Not to mention the other two alternators you've added for your electric tubrocharger

And lets say you could take out that full 1800 watts from the oil (peltiers are pretty inefficient, so it won't be that good) is that really going to make a big difference? A 130 HP engine is 97 kW, and if its even 80% efficient you are dumping 19 kW as heat. So 1800 watts off that might make a slight difference??? Who knows.

-Tony

Edit: damnit. Late again.

Ha TONY... YOUR CALCULATORS FASTER THAN MINE......

you guys are a bunch of nerds

cool discussion though. good luck mike.

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Feb 15 2006, 03:33 PM)

you guys are a bunch of nerds

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Feb 15 2006, 12:33 PM)

you guys are a bunch of nerds cool discussion though. good luck mike.

that offends me

Heat pipes, thermoelectrics, and precision temp control! Lot's of DC avail, use the more efficient Russian chips.

Market to high end / Sharper Image crowd and rake in the dough...

Very interesting concept. I think anytime you can reduce heat from the motor in any way is a step in the right direction.

OT comment..... I'm not a nerd, i'm a geek....theirs a difference!

Geeks = choose to be the way they are. How they act, how they dress, and who they associate with.... ect.

Nerds = have no control over any of the above. Thats the differnce between the two.

I prefer the term "GOON" and sometimes answer to "hey, you wally"


Mike again beg for forgiveness for thread hijack

Time for some experimenting... enough with speculation.......

I propose the following:

1) take junky valve cover and install a "drain" fitting into the low end at a convenient location
2) epoxy a suitable thermocouple at the opening to that drain.

3) Epoxy a thermocouple on or as near to the exhaust valve guide(s) as is feasible

4) Pop two more holes in valve cover so fittings can be installed and "aimed" at exhaust valve guides

5) Close it all up and hook up your oil pump/oil cooler combo
6) while your in there, epoxy a thermocouple to the inlet and outlet of the oil cooler

Now fire up that engine, but don' t turn on the new oil supply yet. Pick a favorite throttle setting and put a brick on the pedal. While your at it, measure the ambient air temperature.

Get the "baseline" numbers of oil at bottom of valve cover before it circulates back to the pushrod tubes as well as the valve guide temps..

7) Now fun begins.. turn on your pump, and measure away... play with turning fans on and off on the oil cooler..


I just moved, so of course I got sick and tired of carting the 40 channel analog thermocouple measurement system I had bought cheap years ago (Omega) and chucked it.. so I no longer have a multichannel tc reader.. anyone on southern cal got one?

I can set up a pump and heat exchanger (got an old Moto Guzzi cooler kicking around somewhere).. But I need an old unloved valve cover.

What do I hope to prove?? Well, I'm identifying the exhaust valve as the main achilles heel of the cylinder head. If I throw lots of oil directly at it, or water indirectly as Mike proposes.. Will it make any difference.. or is the primary heat path via the cylinder fins????

Inquiring nerds need to know....

anyone got stuff to contribute to this mess??

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 15 2006, 11:04 AM)

Porsche actually water cooled the heads on turbos back in the mid-70s but just for a while. They found out better ways to deal with the heat and dropped that project. But do some research on that. You could make a whole sleeve kit for the fours to convert over.

Porsche used water cooled heads on the aborted Indy project with Interscope Racing and Danny Ongais in 79 or 80, and then took that engine and adapted it for the 1981 Lemans winning 936. Then they installed a variation into the 956 and 962 cars for a few more Lemans victories.

Easy,
Just move the spare tire and reservoir to the back trunk and have the windsheild washers spray the heads.

QUOTE (Dead Air @ Feb 16 2006, 09:28 AM)

Easy, Just move the spare tire and reservoir to the back trunk and have the windsheild washers spray the heads.

water spray may be an idea thoughlight mist over the heads instead of pumping the water around the heads

Here is what I did.



The reasons for this were because I am running the Pauter roller-rockers that are not self-oiling. However, it could help with cooling off the heads. I machined out a slit in the valve cover, brazed a brake line over the slit, and drilled very small holes in the direction of the rockers. We shall see if it works?

-Britain

QUOTE (Dead Air @ Feb 16 2006, 06:28 AM)

Easy, Just move the spare tire and reservoir to the back trunk and have the windsheild washers spray the heads.

here's an old post i found on our local site (and alpha didn't write it )

QUOTE

..........Someone was telling me about what is called the "Rubbermaid\Solution".  It involved spraying (through a windshield washer nozzle) water directly into the engine fan, to help with cooling. It appears to be a fairly simple setup, 5 gallon collapsible jug,VDO windshield washer pump with a couple of resistors to lower the voltage (as the pump would run constantly), and the wiring/hoses to make it work.  He had said that over a 30 min session, the 5 gallons of water could remove something like 60'000 BTU's of heat.  It was supposed to help a lot just keeping everything in the engine cooler, as well as increase horsepower, and extend engine longevity.  He prefers it immensely to an oil cooler.  He had said it was very popular a few years back, and all the cars he preped, had it.  The details are supposed to be on the Pelican forums, by searching Rubbermaid.

The key is an efficient combo that does not generate heat...

Then there are no issues with cooling!
Its all in the combo!

I agree with Jake.

And I think I've already mentioned the "rubbermaid" solution on a different thread. Although, I've NEVER heard it called that. Like Jake says, it has to be used with the right "combo." So there should never be a need to just striaght stick (we always use ae early 911 windshield washer resevoir) the apparatus in there if you aren't doing something else "dynaimc" that would need it. And this kind of a system would be utterly useless on a street car. If you're over heating, then the problem isn't the heat and the solution isn't cooling.

..and the remedy is tuning.

If it won't tune- the combo is jacked up- start over.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 16 2006, 11:57 AM)

..and the remedy is tuning. If it won't tune- the combo is jacked up- start over.

well.....I had to sell my "combo" so this was for my turbo 1.8 application....I'm still going to try it out, just need to get a real CHT gauge and sender for the cylinders to verify whether it works or not....I got nothing to lose except a few pounds of scrap aluminum