ive been doing alot of research on the s2000 engine. this engine rocks as far as technology goes. some of you will probably say i should buy an honda s2000 then but i like my porsche 914 more and thought it would be cool to have one of the best designed chassis with one of the best designed 4 cyl engines. im waiting on some info from the honda guys about the dimensions of an s2000 engine (also known as the F20C) but want to know if our transaxle can take 9000+ rpms. so what do you guys think.

i think ya need to put the ricer mags down.....



on another note, my uncle's friend races SCTA (salt flat racing...) and they have a 300hp S2000 motor in a really lite fg roadster chassis...m settin recored

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2006, 02:29 PM)

i think ya need to put the ricer mags down..... on another note, my uncle's friend races SCTA (salt flat racing...) and they have a 300hp S2000 motor in a really lite fg roadster chassis...m settin recored

im am a fan of alot of different cars and yes some of them are ricers. but you have to admit that getting 120+ hp per liter in a production car is pretty darn good.

why not just use a rsx type r tranny? Or even a rsx engine and tranny. Just thinking that would be easier is all.

you can cnc an apapter plate?

and you are going to hack up the car for a radiator?

s2000 is a long... engine.

let me know how you make it fit

I think its a great idea. If it fits, and if you can find an adapter plate it might not be too bad. You'll still face the ECU issues that you'd face with a Subaru engine, as well as cooling issues.

A 914 that revs to 9000 RPM could be a lot of fun. Don't let these Type IV purists talk you down. They are just jealous because your engine won't be using pushrods.

You might want to take a look at the gear ratios of the transmission and the powerband of the engine. I don't know how it would mate up. The transmission is made for a type IV which redlines a LOT lower than the S2000 motor.

-Tony

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2006, 02:34 PM)

you can cnc an apapter plate? and you are going to hack up the car for a radiator? s2000 is a long... engine. let me know how you make it fit

i was going to get an adapter plate for KEP he manufactures on to fit the s2000 motor to the 901 trans. and for the second part........DANGIT if it is too long im not willing to cut into the firewall to make it fit so that my be the end of that idea and yes im willing to cut up the front of the car to fit a radiator up there.

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Feb 27 2006, 02:38 PM)

I think its a great idea. If it fits, and if you can find an adapter plate it might not be too bad. You'll still face the ECU issues that you'd face with a Subaru engine, as well as cooling issues. A 914 that revs to 9000 RPM could be a lot of fun. Don't let these Type IV purists talk you down. They are just jealous because your engine won't be using pushrods. You might want to take a look at the gear ratios of the transmission and the powerband of the engine. I don't know how it would mate up. The transmission is made for a type IV which redlines a LOT lower than the S2000 motor. -Tony

thats good thinking too Tony. i dont have that one figured out yet. the question would be is this project worth buying 5 new gears for my trans. and thank you for the support of my idea that maybe some day will become a project.

oh yeah Tony i was going to ask the guys over at NASIOC about how high a subaru 2.0 can rev with usalble hp. do you have any idea of this.

QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 27 2006, 03:44 PM)

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Feb 27 2006, 02:38 PM) I think its a great idea.  If it fits, and if you can find an adapter plate it might not be too bad.  You'll still face the ECU issues that you'd face with a Subaru engine, as well as cooling issues.   A 914 that revs to 9000 RPM could be a lot of fun.  Don't let these Type IV purists talk you down.  They are just jealous because your engine won't be using pushrods.   You might want to take a look at the gear ratios of the transmission and the powerband of the engine.  I don't know how it would mate up.  The transmission is made for a type IV which redlines a LOT lower than the S2000 motor.   -Tony thats good thinking too Tony. i dont have that one figured out yet. the question would be is this project worth buying 5 new gears for my trans. and thank you for the support of my idea that maybe some day will become a project. oh yeah Tony i was going to ask the guys over at NASIOC about how high a subaru 2.0 can rev with usalble hp. do you have any idea of this.

lots to learn newbiewan.....

grashoppa.... you cannot change second gear on a 901 without huge bank account or a machine shop.....

and considering USED different ratios are from 100- 500 bucks each gear....


think with your wallet too

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2006, 02:46 PM)

QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 27 2006, 03:44 PM) QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Feb 27 2006, 02:38 PM) I think its a great idea.  If it fits, and if you can find an adapter plate it might not be too bad.  You'll still face the ECU issues that you'd face with a Subaru engine, as well as cooling issues.   A 914 that revs to 9000 RPM could be a lot of fun.  Don't let these Type IV purists talk you down.  They are just jealous because your engine won't be using pushrods.   You might want to take a look at the gear ratios of the transmission and the powerband of the engine.  I don't know how it would mate up.  The transmission is made for a type IV which redlines a LOT lower than the S2000 motor.   -Tony thats good thinking too Tony. i dont have that one figured out yet. the question would be is this project worth buying 5 new gears for my trans. and thank you for the support of my idea that maybe some day will become a project. oh yeah Tony i was going to ask the guys over at NASIOC about how high a subaru 2.0 can rev with usalble hp. do you have any idea of this. lots to learn newbiewan..... grashoppa.... you cannot change second gear on a 901 without huge bank account or a machine shop..... and considering USED different ratios are from 100- 500 bucks each gear.... think with your wallet too

yes masteryoda i indeed do have alot to learn and yes newbiewan's wallet is very thin... lol.... but yeah seriously thanks for the help guys even though its a little crazy i do arppriciate all the friendly help i get here.

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Feb 27 2006, 02:38 PM)

They are just jealous because your engine won't be using pushrods.

I got no pushrods in my engine.

Here ya go S200 Engine & Tranny

QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 27 2006, 02:50 PM)

and yes newbiewan's wallet is very thin

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 27 2006, 03:04 PM)

QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 27 2006, 02:50 PM) and yes newbiewan's wallet is very thin

one nice sig but i dont need to hear about your supposed third leg.

two i shouldnt say too thin but i do have a budget i do not want to spend over 10k on my engine swap whatever engine it may be.

QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 27 2006, 04:08 PM)

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 27 2006, 03:04 PM) QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 27 2006, 02:50 PM) and yes newbiewan's wallet is very thin one nice sig but i dont need to hear about your supposed third leg. two i shouldnt say too thin but i do have a budget i do not want to spend over 10k on my engine swap whatever engine it may be.

does your car run and drive?

10k goes pretty quick on consumables and all the upgrades to handle your beast like power......

The length problem is most likely to bite you at the top of the engine. The cam cover may hit the rear firewall, which curves in quite a bit. You may be able to space the engine/transaxle back a bit, like the V8 guys do, to gain clearance.

I'll agree that gearing is likely to be a problem for you. Because the S2000 not only CAN rev to 9000, but appears to NEED to be revved that high to get power, you'll find yourself using 2nd where a 914 driver would be using 4th, and if you AX'd the car, you may even find using 1st necessary in places where 3rd would do with a stock 914 engine. Downshifting into 1st quickly is a problem on most 901 gearboxes. I'd use a fully-rebuilt gearbox for this, as the average input shaft speeds are going to be a lot higher than seen on most 901s. You'll be shifting a lot more often, as well, trying to keep the engine up in it's narrow rev range. Even on a road course, you'd likely find yourself only using 2nd and 3rd, and maybe 1st for particularly tight corners, with stock gearing.

You can build a much closer ratio gearbox using off the shelf Porsche parts, given enough money, so it would be possible to make this swap, but it would be costly.

I am, frankly, unimpressed by the S2000 engine, but that's mostly because I spent so much of my youth on motorcycles. My Honda CB-1 CRUISED at 7000rpm (70mph in top gear), redlined at 14,000rpm, and did very nicely considering it was only 400cc (four cylinder). However, it was frenetic, buzzy, and ultimately fairly tiring to ride. A Honda Hawk GT, sold around the same time, was much more relaxed, with a car-like powerband and redline, only 5 speeds, and could be ridden quite hard with almost no shifting at all (650 twin), and was just as fast as the CB-1 in a straight line.

If you like and want big revs, buy a bike. A brand-new 600cc class sportbike would cost less than this engine swap would, and will get you 12-13Krpm of fun, with far better performance than the 914/S2000 would have, too.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Feb 27 2006, 03:16 PM)

The length problem is most likely to bite you at the top of the engine.  The cam cover may hit the rear firewall, which curves in quite a bit.  You may be able to space the engine/transaxle back a bit, like the V8 guys do, to gain clearance. I'll agree that gearing is likely to be a problem for you.  Because the S2000 not only CAN rev to 9000, but appears to NEED to be revved that high to get power, you'll find yourself using 2nd where a 914 driver would be using 4th, and if you AX'd the car, you may even find using 1st necessary in places where 3rd would do with a stock 914 engine.  Downshifting into 1st quickly is a problem on most 901 gearboxes.  I'd use a fully-rebuilt gearbox for this, as the average input shaft speeds are going to be a lot higher than seen on most 901s.  You'll be shifting a lot more often, as well, trying to keep the engine up in it's narrow rev range.  Even on a road course, you'd likely find yourself only using 2nd and 3rd, and maybe 1st for particularly tight corners, with stock gearing. You can build a much closer ratio gearbox using off the shelf Porsche parts, given enough money, so it would be possible to make this swap, but it would be costly. I am, frankly, unimpressed by the S2000 engine, but that's mostly because I spent so much of my youth on motorcycles.  My Honda CB-1 CRUISED at 7000rpm (70mph in top gear), redlined at 14,000rpm, and did very nicely considering it was only 400cc (four cylinder).  However, it was frenetic, buzzy, and ultimately fairly tiring to ride.  A Honda Hawk GT, sold around the same time, was much more relaxed, with a car-like powerband and redline, only 5 speeds, and could be ridden quite hard with almost no shifting at all (650 twin), and was just as fast as the CB-1 in a straight line. If you like and want big revs, buy a bike.  A brand-new 600cc class sportbike would cost less than this engine swap would, and will get you 12-13Krpm of fun, with far better performance than the 914/S2000 would have, too.

yeah a bike would be great but my girlfriend outlawed me from it. i wanted to buy a honda 600rr but i dont think thats going to happen. but yeah judging by what you and others say this is going to top a 10k budget. thanks for the help anyways.

(Nomex on)

The S2000 will out run the S2000 powered 914. The chassis is much better, as is the suspension.

Anyway, After driving a brand new Z06, I can tell you torque wins every time. The engine was new so I wasn't running it over 4000Rpm and it pulled like a freight train. I took it down my favorite mountain test road and got fast enough to get in trouble with no effor at all. Plus driving around town was gravy. Just push the gas in any gear.

Now Revs are cool, but So is torque. I can build an F20C and make an easy 300-350, but you willhave to rev it to 10500rpm.

already stated this before in another thread but...I just sold an S2000. LOVED the car, the engine was awesome.

As other people have already stated, the VTEC puts alot of stress on the car's structural and mechanical components, so I would guess it would take alot of work to pull this off right. S2000 engines are known for burning out the transmissions on the early cars, because they can't take the torque.

QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 27 2006, 07:18 PM)

The S2000 will out run the S2000 powered 914. The chassis is much better, as is the suspension.

Believe my I have kicked the ass of many an s2000. my wrx 914 redlines at 7000 rpm and even that is a little much! unless I forget to shift I seldom see 5500rpm. my rpm at 90mph with nicely paired stock gearing is 2800rpm! the s2000 sounds cool but consider going direct drive so as to optimize your revving potential!

QUOTE

elieve my I have kicked the ass of many an s2000. my wrx 914 redlines at 7000 rpm and even that is a little much! unless I forget to shift I seldom see 5500rpm. my rpm at 90mph with nicely paired stock gearing is 2800rpm! the s2000 sounds cool but consider going direct drive so as to optimize your revving potential!

You may be a better driver, but put a good driver in both cars on the smae track and the S2000 will run circles around the 914. Not an autocross but a real track with back to back laps. The S2000 benefits from 30+ years of development.

Now which car is cooler?

QUOTE

You may be a better driver, but put a good driver in both cars on the same track and the S2000 will run circles around the 914. Not an autocross but a real track with back to back laps. The S2000 benefits from 30+ years of development.

oh sure you just had to bring up the whole turning/track thing! let me rephrase that. I have kicked the butt of many an s2000 in a straight line. going to the track next weekend I'll let you know how I do! there you happy now?

QUOTE

Now which car is cooler?

914 by far! how dare you even ask such a question?!

914 is way cooler. I'd prefer a comment of "What the hell is that?!"(gotten many) to a "Just another ricer" any day.

But.. Japanese cars suck.

man...why all the hate for the S2000? They are a great, pure sports car. Its not like they are a Z3 or Z4 or something like that. Where I live they are way less common and the club community is strong (http://s2ki.com)

I also agree that a competent driver in an S2K would kill a 914. But, they aren't designed for drag racing either and its tough to do it.

(can you tell i used to own one?)

QUOTE (plymouth37 @ Feb 28 2006, 01:12 AM)

QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 27 2006, 07:18 PM) The S2000 will out run the S2000 powered 914.  The chassis is much better, as is the suspension. Believe my I have kicked the ass of many an s2000. my wrx 914 redlines at 7000 rpm and even that is a little much! unless I forget to shift I seldom see 5500rpm. my rpm at 90mph with nicely paired stock gearing is 2800rpm! the s2000 sounds cool but consider going direct drive so as to optimize your revving potential!

You had better check your speedo or tach......90 mph in a stock geared 914 is more like 4000rpm on a 25" tire


Bob

so ypu guys are saying a 914 is gonna be slower then my civic? I spank s2000s are the track and autox. Nice to know I am getting a slower car.

I've got an S2K and believe me that will fly on the track. You have to keep the revs high or it drives like a Civic. It drives more like a bike than a car. But the 914-6 is cooler and more fun. The S2K would not be my choice for an engine swap into a teener.

T.C.

QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ Feb 28 2006, 06:46 AM)

You had better check your speedo or tach......90 mph in a stock geared 914 is more like 4000rpm on a 25" tire

who said anything about a 25 inch tire? anyway thanks for catching my typo 3800 rpm I'm dumb sorry.

Check out these laptimes and compare:

1:36.2 914-4 class J at Summit Point
1:23.469 Honda S2000 NASA H1 class at Summit Point

http://www.pca.org/clubrace/2004_results/s.../Group3Qual.htm
http://www.hondachallenge.com/track_records.php

1 2 141 A. HANSEN B. HOLLINGSWORTH/ GT5S 01:53.1 3.542 5 YELLOW GT 74 914
GT5S full blown race car at Carolina Motorsports Park

Driver Machine Time Date
H1 Peter Curpier Honda Civic EG 1:49.392
Street car CMP.

Results came from the above links.

Sorry I couldn't find but 1 S2000 results. But the numbers speak for themselves.

Here is another list:
http://www.hondachallenge.com/track_records.php

Don't see any Porsches on the list at all.

If I were going to do a Honda swap I would probably use a B series motor, there is a ton of aftermarket stuff, and it will use a variety of transmissions. I don't know a thing about doing a swap like this, but it seems to me keeping the transmission ratios the motor's designers chose would make better use of its capabilities. On a tube frame vehicle, I imagine suspension mounts could be put anywhere, how would a double wishbone rear suspension work on a 914? I don't know, but if I had the skills, and more crucially the time, I would probably find out. I know where there a few cars I could pick up for next to nothing(Though I may have to see about getting the windshield out of the white one for my orange one) There are several cable shifted transmissions available for this application, and an LSD can be had for cheap, if it is not in the thing already. I have seen an S2000 drivetrain in a 510, even had the dash in there with the groovy tach that I dislike and the red start button that is kinda cool.

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Feb 27 2006, 02:38 PM)

I think its a great idea. If it fits, and if you can find an adapter plate it might not be too bad. You'll still face the ECU issues that you'd face with a Subaru engine, as well as cooling issues. A 914 that revs to 9000 RPM could be a lot of fun. Don't let these Type IV purists talk you down. They are just jealous because your engine won't be using pushrods. You might want to take a look at the gear ratios of the transmission and the powerband of the engine. I don't know how it would mate up. The transmission is made for a type IV which redlines a LOT lower than the S2000 motor. -Tony

My engine won't be using push rods and should have no problem revving to 9000 rpm either. And why settle for normally aspirated 120 hp/litre when you can get normally aspirated 225 hp/litre? Without valves too!

Seriously though, the S2000 is a nice car but with it's narrow powerband you have to bag it to get the power out of it which I think would make it a tiring daily driver. It also suffers from the lack of torque that stock n/a rotaries are criticized for. Low torque would make it a better choice for transmission reliabilty though. I say install one and let us all know what it's like!

QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 28 2006, 08:59 AM)

Check out these laptimes and compare: 1:36.2 914-4 class J at Summit Point 1:23.469  Honda S2000 NASA H1 class at Summit Point http://www.pca.org/clubrace/2004_results/s.../Group3Qual.htm http://www.hondachallenge.com/track_records.php 1   2   141   A. HANSEN   B. HOLLINGSWORTH/   GT5S   01:53.1   3.542   5   YELLOW   GT  74 914 GT5S full blown race car at Carolina Motorsports Park   Driver   Machine   Time   Date H1  Peter Curpier  Honda Civic EG  1:49.392 Street car CMP. Results came from the above links. Sorry I couldn't find but 1 S2000 results.  But the numbers speak for themselves. Here is another list: http://www.hondachallenge.com/track_records.php Don't see any Porsches on the list at all.

How can a Civic outrun a full blown 914 race car?

for that kind of $ (10k) you could put in a healthy 6er.....and keep it a porsche