So my project for a stronger chassis has begun.

Heres were Im at right now. Took the suspension out today.

I'll go do some welding and prep tonight, hit the bed, see what you guys say, and do some more welding tomorrow.


Picture of some buckling of the suspension. Other side has a raised area, but is generally flat, this side has raised and concave area's. I'll be adding something here for strenthening, a tube? A flat piece of metal? A triangle?







Here is some area's im going to weld, any two pieces joined together I will stitch weld.

fiberglass.. random pic.


engine mount lower right.


Some of the engine mount metal will be welded as well, possibly some reinforcement as well.

Picture of what I believe to be ovaled ear hole.
Will post another thread on that... That bolt always comes loose, after just a short drive..






Big picture.. Please, Someone (brad?) give me a green line where to seam weld, a red box where to add metal, a blue line where to tube...





rear susp setup. ignore blue paint and spacers..


Car as it looked bout noon. 255's up front, fit guud.






Gettin the body lines right..


More body lines

And more..


The welder... (tim allen grunt) Lincoln 135 made the cart myself.


Start of the engman kit. left side DONE


rear


Ass bigger than my gi nevermind.


dont tell me im beautiful.


Front susp... DONE, OUT


YES


Few K's into suspension and brakes doesnt hurt a v8..

time.. (A&W)

Oh ya, it takes,

11mm 13mmx2 15mm 17mm 19mm 3/4 sockets 7/8's socket
Impact wrench 8mm allen (I think) 6mm star allen (cv) pliers, and a couple screwdrivers to take it all out.

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 21 2006, 11:55 PM)

Please, Someone (brad?) give me a green line where to seam weld, a red box where to add metal, a blue line where to tube...

here you go ...

Andy

Andrew,
The "buckling" you noted is nothing but a little wrinkling from the metal stamping process when the parts were originally manufactured. It isn't from any stress during operation of the vehicle. I wish I had a chassis as nice as yours.

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Mar 22 2006, 04:29 AM)

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 21 2006, 11:55 PM) Please, Someone (brad?) give me a green line where to seam weld, a red box where to add metal, a blue line where to tube... here you go ... Andy

no need to weld, just use bondo

so the buckling of the suspension, is that a common thing? Only with bigger engines in there?


please educate me, I am paranoid about old cars and failing suspensions

Andrew,

Sorry for the hijack, but when did you switch to the fiberglass fenders? All that panel beating was wasted? Can you give me some specifics on the panels you used, or a link to an old thread?

It's looking good! Decided on a colour yet? Will it be ready for WCC06? I'm hoping for another ride.

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ Mar 22 2006, 04:45 AM)

Andrew, The "buckling" you noted is nothing but a little wrinkling from the metal stamping process when the parts were originally manufactured.  It isn't from any stress during operation of the vehicle.  I wish I had a chassis as nice as yours.

Looks like forming wrinkles. Same stuff people are seeing on AA flares.

And your hole doesn't look oval. Could be oversize, but I doubt it. It looks too round. BUT, I can't explain why it's coming loose. Maybe you just need to work out?

QUOTE (mike_the_man @ Mar 22 2006, 07:53 AM)

Andrew, Sorry for the hijack, but when did you switch to the fiberglass fenders? All that panel beating was wasted? Can you give me some specifics on the panels you used, or a link to an old thread? It's looking good! Decided on a colour yet? Will it be ready for WCC06? I'm hoping for another ride.

I emailed and asked the same question. They look like Bontempi flares but not sure. They look sweet regardless...

QUOTE (riverman @ Mar 22 2006, 05:48 AM)

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Mar 22 2006, 04:29 AM) QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 21 2006, 11:55 PM) Please, Someone (brad?) give me a green line where to seam weld, a red box where to add metal, a blue line where to tube... here you go ... Andy

rofl ahndy.....

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 22 2006, 02:55 AM)

Picture of what I believe to be ovaled ear hole. Will post another thread on that... That bolt always comes loose, after just a short drive..

Tighten up your hole.

I would like to Nominate Andy's post/Drawing as the Post of the YEAR, if not the Decade!!!




Oh and Andrew,

Geez andy, I had metal all rolled, tubes formed, and was ready to start welding when I saw the mueba
I'll take it as a joke... lol

Chris, Thanks! Chassis is rust free on that side, hell holl had a little problem which I fixed a long time ago. Poorly, but I fixed it... I'll take it as it came from the factory like that, but I think I might strenthen it anyways...

Drewvw, buckling is not common, Chassis cracking only happens when you start putting bigger sticky tires, and more hp through the car and big rate springs..

I had in my possetion my f/g flares before the wcc 05. I knew I would never get my flares to be wide enough or perfect enough to paint. Currently they need to house 285 35 18's on the back.. No way my hand made flares could do that. The flares are Rich Bontempi HPH flares front and rear. I do like them alot.

Sparky, lets not go there.

Heres a possibility.

Here's what I worked out for the outer console reinforcement.

Thanks Chris!

I'll do that.. looks strong to me.

What guage metal did you use?

I have one set of these parts in stock.
Add a tubular brace from the inner console to the firewall and you won't ever have cracking problems with the rear suspension pickups.

Checked your site, Didnt see a price.

I dont have oogles of bucks... lots more things to buy ( my list of things to buy takes me to a -3000 left in the bank )

Whats your price?

I know your very knowlegable when it comes to this, what do you think about my plan there? Not a whole lot of metal added.. less than the GT kit.. 2 tubes (one like you said, and one behind it.. locking in the ear)

Im worried because im currently at 275lb springs, will be running true slicks sometime in the future (10's and 11's) and I dont want to go with a cage because I will drive it on the street.



Andrew

Cracking in this area is primarily due to repeated flexing of the panels which loosens up the pinch welds and/or starts cracks at highly stressed areas of panels. I think what I designed eliminates the flex issue by spreading the loads out to otherwise unstressed areas, therefore stops cracking and spot weld loosening.
I've never been a big fan of seam welds. While it tightens things up it also causes shrinkage/warpage. I like to design things that minimize the total amount of welding required, and use the least amount of added metal to accomplish the goal.
Note the additional 14ga. piece along the rocker in front of the outer console. It isn't essential but provides reinforcement to the area between the console and the jack post. I think the GT kits had a similar piece in that location.
Regarding the tubular reinforcement of the inner console, I don't think the rearward tube is nearly as valuable as the forward one since the highest loads are on the outer wheel in cornering and the forces push the console in and up. The upward force is well resisted by the existing structure IMO.
Here's an example of the tubular brace I like.

Andyrew,
The blue tube in your sketch won't do anything
The part you are connecting it to isn't structural...

another area to put some thought in is were the framerail ends at the rear shock mount
with the firewall in place it's gonna be hard to weld the vertical part of it, but you can seem weld the top/horizontal part of framerail to the firewall and on the other side of the firewall, seem weld the shock tower

stichwelding the rest of the shock tower isn't a bad idea either

check brant's build thread, you'll find some good pics there (including how he managed to weld the vertical part of the framerail by cutting a section out of the firewall)

re: the rear susp bolts coming loose
maybe your the shoulders of your bushings are are too "high"
the trailing arm shaft should be slightly wider than the bushings to get a secure mount

Thanks Chris,

That helps!

That is exactly what I was going to do for the bar up front.

QUOTE (Jeroen @ Mar 22 2006, 06:07 PM)

Andyrew, The blue tube in your sketch won't do anything The part you are connecting it to isn't structural...

Aww ya beat me to it.

Jeroen, Sorry didnt see your post...

I didnt know if that piece was structural or not, but I figured seam welding things to it would help it be used as a pivot point..

I will stitch weld the whole shock tower, is there any portion that would benifit from adding metal to it? I have 275 lb springs, I remember brad saying the max he's used without having problems was 250, so i figure stitch welding the rest of the are would help.

The welding the vertical part of the framewell, are you refering to were the shock tower meets the longitudnal? I was planning on welding it, I will check Brants build and save any pictures I see of chassis stiffening.


I have new bushings for the rear arm, I do not know if they have been done before on this arm. I have another set of arms which I did not have a problem with untill I changed the arms for the 5 lug.. Could you explain the "shoulder of the bushing being to high" portion? maybe a picture would help.


Thanks again!

Heres a pic of what im planning for the interior.

Its just a tad bit of help for structure, wont hurt my seating, and maybe help if I get T boned, I know, wont do a bunch.. but I think it may help the chassis.

[QUOTE=Here's an example of the tubular brace I like. [/QUOTE]

What happens in a wreck - say a bad one where the rear of the car gets all wadded up. Looks like that bar might end up in your back.
I like the idea of the tube for stiffening, but I have been thinking about this potential proplem for a while.

That tube brace will fold just as quickly as the surrounding metal.. besides the angle at which it is at will put it 5 inches behind the rear seat if it continued in its path of motion.

An accident that bad would kill both driver and passenger anyways, seatbelt's wouldnt hold that much strain and the collision would probably give enough whiplash to kill them as well..


You drive a car like this, You take a risk like that...



Anyways, Sway bar is out. New one next to it.

Old sway bar goes to Kenny (orange914)

New one is a weapon.. looks to short? 32inches is the firewall to firewall, bar is 37.5 2.25 on each side of play room..
Hardest part will be fabbing mounts for the bushings.

pic

pic of car

sway bar hole a tad small. Need to enlargen and reinforce..

QUOTE (Porcharu @ Mar 23 2006, 03:15 AM)

[QUOTE=Here's an example of the tubular brace I like. [/QUOTE] What happens in a wreck - say a bad one where the rear of the car gets all wadded up. Looks like that bar might end up in your back. I like the idea of the tube for stiffening, but I have been thinking about this potential proplem for a while.

I whacked the left rear corner of my race car at 100mph against an armco barrier. I never lifted.
The pickup ear folded around the end of the tube reinforcement. The firewall is quite strong along the bottom edge where it is welded to the floorpan and there is a second layer a couple inches forther forward. There's no danger of injury from that tube.

andyrew,
the pic below shows 2 situations
in the top one, you will see that the shaft is slightly protruding beyond the shoulder of the bushing

the bottom one, the bushing sticks out farther that the shaft
this is not good

the shaft should mate to the suspension pickup on the chassis to prevent it from rotating (and loosening the bolt)

if this happens, you need to remove some material from the bushing so the shaft "sticks out" a bit

re: doorbar design
remember that the middle of the long is it's weekest point taking stress away from other parts of the chassis and focusing it to the middle of the long (as in your sketch) might not be a good idea

Andyrew,

You might want to go back and check out the 914RS build thread and look at the reinforcing tube work Joe did in the cockpit. If I recall correctly, he built a partial tube cage that extended from the rear firewall to the forward part of the longitudinal. Not a complete cage but a reinforcement that ran low from the firewall forward. Your idea looks similar.

QUOTE (Jeroen @ Mar 23 2006, 07:37 AM)

andyrew, the pic below shows 2 situations in the top one, you will see that the shaft is slightly protruding beyond the shoulder of the bushing the bottom one, the bushing sticks out farther that the shaft this is not good the shaft should mate to the suspension pickup on the chassis to prevent it from rotating (and loosening the bolt) if this happens, you need to remove some material from the bushing so the shaft "sticks out" a bit re: doorbar design remember that the middle of the long is it's weekest point taking stress away from other parts of the chassis and focusing it to the middle of the long (as in your sketch) might not be a good idea

Thanks, That helps a bunch!

Also I'll move the pickup points further.

How bout this?

stop pussyfooting and do a real doorbar

I seam welded everything from the after firewall back.
Nuthin' has broke in 4 years of Axing on a rough venue.....(insert fingercrosssing smilie here). I saw no noticable warpage.

I've seen uni-body prep articles & vids for racin'. The first thing these race shops did was seam weld everything in sight. I dunno if it has done any gud on my car, but it didn't hurt.

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Mar 23 2006, 09:11 AM)

stop pussyfooting and do a real doorbar

if you come to the breakfast on sat. i'll let you test-sit my car. the door-brace actually makes it EASIER to get in/out of the car ...

Andy

Im sorry, but I will not make a full bar. I want the bar to be somewhat hidden, and I want the old man who drives and rides this car to be able to get in and out of it with ease. I know about sliding on the bar, thats how I get in and out of the turbo race car. I slide on the seat.

Sat im prom tux shopping.

Andrew

measured the sway bars with a dial caliper.

Stock is 6/10 of an inch, Nascar is 7.5/10 of an inch. I would have to say that I think the nascar bar is made of a stronger material than the stock one and which it should be stiffer.
At any rate, stiffness also depends on how far the droplinks are from the actual shaft. Which is why im going to drill a hole every 1.5 inches towards the bar on the arm. Should give me quite a bit of adjustability with adjustable droplinks.



PS my door brace will be simular to Andy's... just about 2in lower

Andrew,

Scott told me "Peal" had unique and hidden bracing. Maybe BJ can attest to this. This car is now owned by someone near me who also has a 215 914 V8.

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 23 2006, 09:41 AM)

I know about sliding on the bar, thats how I get in and out of the turbo race car. I slide on the seat.

sliding? how does "sliding" help you getting out of the car ????


*i* was talking about leverage ...
Andy

Helps getting in andy.

Getting out is just a matter of practice and tecnique (sp?)



Felix, I would be interested if the owner could send me some pics, or if you could send me some pics. Thanks

QUOTE

I seam welded everything from the after firewall back. Nuthin' has broke in 4 years of Axing on a rough venue.....(insert fingercrosssing smilie here). I saw no noticable warpage. I've seen uni-body prep articles & vids for racin'. The first thing these race shops did was seam weld everything in sight. I dunno if it has done any gud on my car, but it didn't hurt. biggrin.gif

Pics please.

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 23 2006, 10:23 AM)

Getting out is just a matter of practice and tecnique (sp?)

alright, then let me say this one more time ...

with a bar like mine, it is actually "easier to get in and out of the car" ...

no sliding required ...
Andy

When you guys refer to seam welding, I become rather confused.

When one "seam" welds sheet metal that was spot welded together, does one run a heavy weld at the break (bend) or does one simply weld a bead past the spot welds at the end of the bent "flange".

Also when 2 "flanges" meet (along the bottom or top) of the longs, how are these "seam" welded?

I am assuming that MIG welders are being used.

Typically, when I think of seam welding sheet metal boxes, I think of how the gas tanks were welded (continuous spot welding between two rollers).

I need some pics of the "seam" welding.

Thanks for some pictorial explanations.

OK then andy...

When I get home from work, I'll draw you up what I want to do in your angle, and we'll see the difference. There is not much.