So I got my Piston kit from Jake, now I realize I dont know WTF im doing.
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[quote name='rdauenhauer' date='Apr 15 2006, 10:08 PM' post='659820']
So I got my Piston kit from Jake, now I realize I dont know WTF im doing.


Thats why you buy his tape

i'd start with cleaning what i think is supposed to be a T4 engine under all that crud ...

Andy

Is the lower end staying together? Just a topend rebuild? Are you going to change the main seals?

What's the story with the cylinders? Are they ready to go? I'm assuming with the glaze breaker they aren't. I've never honed a cylinder so I would have them checked and honed at a machine shop (but that's me). Once that is done I'd gap the rings and then load the jugs. What's the story with wrist pins and keepers? I assume they were supplied. Then on the stuff goes and you check deck height and move P & Cs around until they are as close to the same as possible. At that point you can decide what deck you want to run and order shims for under the cylinders if you need them. If the heads were redone you probably have the volume so you can calculate CR. Heads go on and get torqued then you set up the valve train.

Rich, if you want a hand I'm off Wednesday and could come up for part of the day or next Saturday. I have a bunch of the stuff you need like a ring compressor, a jig to measure deck height and a dial indicator.

Dave

Looks like you need to hone the cylinders which is real easy. The pattern is a 60 degree crosshatch (google for it) and use a lite oil with a slow speed drill. As Dave says you need to measure everything including the cylinder to piston clearance especially after the honing. If you have too much clearance well order new cylinders/pistons as a complete set.
Time for you to get out the manual an look at all the specs and measure what you have. I have a set of tools to do that but I am leaving tonight for 2 months. Maybe PM Blair- Axis Team Racing- and he'll come up to help. He went to school to learn how to do all this plus we have done two motor together so he knows type 4's alittle bit.
Check the ring gap and gap the rings to spec after the honing is done and the cylinders are washed and clean.
Then install the pistons without the rings install and no keepers to set the deck ht. I use big washers to clamp down the cylinders, then use a dial indicator set up to check the difference between the top of the piston and the top of the cylinder. Should be IIRC .35-.45 and you add cylinder base shims to set that. Order new shims from Jake to set it after you measure it or if you are lucky use the stock ones supplied in the gasket set you should have already. Check each jug to set them all the same.
Then just install the loaded pistons and the install the cylinders keeping the ring gap offset so they aren't lined up.
What about the heads? Are they rebuilt ? They go on after the p&c's are all on.
While you have the block open, measure the rod side clearance thru the spigots to check that. If thats why off open her up and rebuild the block as its easy to do.

I agree with Andy, clean up that fan, block etc so atleast its nice and clean so we you put it back together you aren't fighting all that grime getting inside the engine.

I think you should have a so Dave Hunt, Blair and others come up with tools and you assemble it.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachmentOk so the story is that the motor in the yellow 73 is out of the LE. And will have to go back
in it soon since it will be coming out of paint in the next week or so.
The P/C's in the Pic (96's) came off the Mark Stephans motor that saw less than
200 miles before tearing it down .
The original motor (1.7) has been stored so I ordered up a set of 96 KB's for the
short stroke motor and plan on doing the top end only. It will be topped off with 2.0 heads
which have been rebuilt, and OE 2.0 FI for a 1911.
I appreciate the offer Dave as that is where I am lost: Deck ht. Ring gap skirt clearance, Ive
never done before so instruction (oh and I dont have the tools either) and experiance
would be greatly appreciated.
BTW the 1st thing i did was rewatch Jakes video but it dosent go into a lot of that detail.
The BBQ sounds like a good idea, hopefully our recent winters blast will blow over by then.
Thanks again Dave, anyone else in? Blair, Dan, Jeff, Kev?

Oh and anyone regognize who makes these Pistons:

Keith Black pistons. KB on the box.

The hone on the cylinders is all about break-in. You want some "tooth" to the cylinder wall so the rings take a set.

Pull those old jugs off and pop the pistons off.
Install piston rings in the correct order and orientation (read the ring package). Watch out new rings have very sharp edges.Click to view attachment
Put the new pistons on and pop the cylinders on.
Install the heads.

Oversimplified.

BTW, your other engine case is on the engine stand getting galley plugs installed. Progress!

Blair came over and said he up for it...so PM him. Got lots of his own tools plus mine.

Its pretty easy with tools. You can do the Ghetto method by using feeler gauges too.

I know exactly what to do Rich. Invite Dave over and be VERY nice to him.

Thanks Jim. I thinks thats a good plan.
Mark I like the sound of progress, but the I know the of the pistons I just bought
are Kieth Black's, the 2nd pic (up the skirt ) is one of the
Pistons from MS set. Dont recognize the markings, just curious as they
are like new.
I suppose I could just *SLAP* it all together as you describe Mark,
but I guess at a minimum I would be leaving power on the table, at the
worst it would lunch itself in short order

Whoops. I got confused.

Nah, don't slap it together. Taking a few measurements isn't a big deal.

Hone the cylinders (do they still have a pattern on the inside? picture down the bore) or have them honed.

Put one of the rings in the cylinder and use a piston to push down on the ring and make sure it's even and perpendicular. Take the piston out. Now you have a ring in a cylinder and a little gap between the ends. Use a feeler gauge to measure the gap.

The rings will probably be within spec already, but it's good to double check.

Install the rings on the pistons, put the pistons on the rods and install the cylinders with the base gasket (case to cylinder). Put cylinder #1 at TDC and measure from the top of the cylinder wall (where it contacts the head) to the piston. Measure a few different places on the cylinder and average the numbers. What you're trying to find out is the volume of the space between the piston and the top of the cylinder. That volume, plus the volume of the combustion chamber will let you know what compression ratio you have. The Keith Blacks have valve reliefs as I recall and you'll need to add that volume to the deck height volume when you compute compression ratio. Do the math, and if your compression ratio is too high, you'll need to get shims under the cylinders to increase the deck height and reduce the compression ratio. You'll want to check each cylinder to make sure they are all close. You want to reduce the variation in CR from cylinder to cylinder.

You'll also want to compare combustion chamber volumes, especially if you've had cracks welded.

wow mcmark how the hell did you cut yourself wuth the rings? get them stuck in the wrong grove and pick at them?

any who rdauenhauer id be glad to help i can do most of the crap you need done. only thing i need to refine is the deck height. geoffs method of a dial indicator on a magnetic base and sliding it ever so carefully to get the height is ghetto

if you want i got a bunch of wierd books from school that show most of the stuff your trying to do just on a v-8

McMArk,

There is a cheap tool you can buy at Sears for insstalling pistion rings. It will help to keep your blood on this inside of your body.

??? i used this arrangement to locate the piston at exactly TDC, then used a caliper and a straight edge to measure the distance from the cylinder top to the piston top. what other ways are there to measure deck height and give a description of the method? just a request for info from an inexperienced person...

well since most of the case is aluminum haveing the magnetic base held on to the head studs it can move around. and when your talking about .001's of and inch having the indicator base move is ghetto to me. thats why i want to fab up a metal bar so i can bolt it down and us that to try and take away some of the varibles in crap moving

So Blair is the Black 1.7 on the Road?

nope i have a few things left, redo the cv's, install heat exchangers, finish little things.

not much blood. couldn't of hurt too much. why is transmission still attached? why is the flywheel still on? why are you working on the floor? it will be good for your bad back. i would have sent a set of good 94s out for a reaming out for the KBs. in fact that's what i did.

my buddy has a fixture so you can pull the barrels tight to the case, to measure the deck, so you can determine the cr. it's the valve train geometry that is going to be the pain.

k

but thats Dave's "Specialty"!