So I'm trying to start softening my wife up to the idea of me getting a "new car". This is how it works. Her minivan will be paid off in about a year. I have been complaining to her lately about how unfair it is to me that I have the sole household income and she drives the high dollar, dealer maintained vehicle while I'm not allowed to have anything more than a beater car and a beater truck that I have to invest my own blood and sweat into to keep running. I have an F-150 that I bought for $600 and had to install a motor in and my 914 that is rough but very restorable that I got on EBay for $988 and had to make it driveable. I think that she has bought off on me spending a lot of money once her van is paid off. Last time we did this, she was o.k. with me financing a car for not more that the payment that we had previously been making on her vehicle. Her current payment is $240 a month but I think I could get her to agree to me paying up to $300 for something nice. I have two choices. I could sell my Ford and find a 2000+ 3/4 ton crew cab diesel truck or I could invest a reasonable amount of borrowed cash into my 914. I'm looking at a RAT engine and getting a fresh professionally rebuilt transmission. I really like the specs on the daily driver 2270 but I would have to get the FI to support it. that sounds like an $8500 set up by the time I'm done. For half the cost, I could keep the stock L-jet and get the 2056 stock+. What pros and cons do you all see with these choices? Talk some sense into me before I do something I'll regret. My 914 is a daily driver that will never see a race track while I own it but I love to drive it hard. I redline it several times every time I drive it.

This sounds justs like me. I would 1st address your work truck you need good reliable transportation
for work. If the truck you have now is good then keep it to avoid payments which suck. Whith no car
or truck payments that will free up so cash for your 914.
Spend the money on the rat engine. It has been designed to hold up to your kind of driving and has
many hours of R&D behind it. I'm tight on money to but I'm going with a rat engine kit my self you can't
beat R&D. My car has been waiting for sometime but its getting done this year.
Good luck with your car
Craig

So which motor are you going with and why? Are you doing the build and installation yourself? It would probably be easier for me to make a decision if the Pricing was a little more clear. My $8500 guestimate for the 2270 is based on all the listed upgrades as well as the EFI system listed at the AC store. I opted for the engine prep and balancing. Does this mean that I will receive a turn key engine ready to install?

I'm still trying to deside between a 2270 or a 2316. When it comes time I'll have to ask Jake what he recomends because I love torque.
I'll be putting it together myself.
His engine kits come with everything but the case.
You get everything to make a long block with your case. Are you planning to do it yourself?

I probably could do it myself I guess. I have removed and installed engines and transmissions before. I completely regasketed mt 5.0 Ford before I installed it but I have never actually done a full rebuild. I may need to pick up a few new tools and precision measurement devices but the labor cost I save would justify buying a few new tools. I just thought that in order to balance the motor, it had to be assembled. Is this not the case? I guess If I do it myself, I could save the $350 cost of the engine case since I already have one of those. So then if I understand correctly, If I pay the $4600 base cost of the 2270 + $1500 FI system and build it myself, I can expect 100,000 mile longevity and not necissarily have to pay for all of the upgrades? How much additional longevity will the upgraded components get me anyway. I am hoping for an engine that will get 100,000+ miles, 25+ mpg, the tq/hp specs of the "2270 daily driver" and be able to whup up on at least the run of the mill 5.0 Mustang.

The upgrade I think are just added insurance by making it a little stronger. I your case and I'll be doing the same is chosing his prep and balance sevice. This is where he mocks it up and deals with all clearances in the lower end. You still need to worry about the deck and the valve geometery. He gives you an hour of phone time to help you through with this along with tuning after you get it running. Balancing is done before assembly. You weigh all the rods to be the same wieght then you do the same for the pistons. Then the whole crank assembly everything that is bolted to the crank (minus the rods and pistons) from the clutch to the fan is rotated on a balance machine. Longevity is what he always claims and this is why I'm chosing him.
Without R&D you simply go and buy patrs and assembly them and hope everythings works together.
And thats what I have done in the past. Thats why I'm taking advantage of buying from him because
of the his r&d all the parts are working together.
Sorry this took awhile but I type slow.

take the 8500, add the 4500 from selling your current 914 and use the 13k to buy yourself a *really* nice 914 that someone else has put a lot of sweat and tears into ...

Andy

$8500 sounds like a lot...but It doesn't hurt as much when you stretch it out over many years of accumulating parts....just don't add up all the reciepts.
Just make sure you get all stuff from Jake so you know it will all work together, it takes the guess work out of the eqaution.

Agreed... its best to find a car that someone else has poured money into and can't get more than 40% back on their investment.

But if you are going to invest in a RAT engine yourself and want to save some $$ I would suggest looking into Megasquirt for a custom standalone engine management system. It will cost you ~$400 with all the bells an whistles then $200 for an Innovative Wideband O2.

Before putting that kind of power into your car you really want to give everything a once-over and make sure its a solid chasis for that kind of power. Make sure the suspension is solid, brakes a solid, etc.

It all depends on how much hp you need. For a DD forget 150-170 2270 which is alot. The 2056 is plenty and more streetable, cools with stock stuff, uses stock FI and can be in the 115hp range.
Ever driven a 115hp 914? Its a different car than the 95hp stock 2.0L.

Spend the rest of your cash on improving the rest of the car, like suspension and brakes, rebuild tranny etc.

Not a candidate for this kind of motor upgrade.

I have some other ideas, but I bet you already know what those are.



KT

Why would the cost of the vehicle and where I got it from have anything to do with its suitability for an engine upgrade?

I have,(had) a 2270RAT power car running dual Weber 44's. Please see link below.

It is (was) hot! A blast to drive, the torque was (is) so constant and smoootthhhh.

My car was (is) little more than 1900 lbs. and was (was) a hot ride, with the 155 horses (them BIG German horses) provided by Jake.

John

I have been off line for a matter of weeks while I finish a huge project and integrate many new changes into my engine program.

Many of these changes have already taken effect, they just have not been publically released. I will go over a few of them since a couple of you guys need to know them to help with your decisions and plans...

1- ALL engine kit sales are on hold through May 10 as we are changing everything with the kits, the way they are sold and what options they have. I do not need kits in the processing queue while we renovate the program so all kit sales have been halted till we are 100% ready to implement the new changes.

2- All engine kits larger than 2056 will now come with our "New Generation heads" that will provide (and have already) a 10-15% gain to the previous power offered by the kit. This changes many things, but hardly impacts the price, especially considering the power gains!

3- All kits will only have the options of better Balance, prep andlightened flywheel. The other options and upgrades have either been incorporated into the kit, or are no longer available. We have had to streamline the kit processes to keep prices under control.

Thats just a few of the highlights of the engine kit program that we are cooking up at the present....

Now for my complete engines..

For 914 applications I only offer two combinations, the 2270 Daily Driver and the 2316 Annihilator. With the new head technology the smallest of these engines is 160HP with over 165 Tq. The prices start at 10K for the complete dyno tuned engine.

My primary focus in the engine shop has not been TIV engines for 914 applications for a few years now. I no longer custom build the 914 application engines, they are based upon very solid well tested, researched foundations and are virtually all the same.

By the end of May our new catalog will be released and for the first time I have actually catalogged engines, like I said a lot is changing and all for the better!

Hope that answers your questions a bit- now I'm out of here again for a couple more weeks.....

Remember: No one can answer the questions about my product(s) better than I can, so take what you hear from others with a grain of salt till it comes from the horses mouth...

I don't care if you got it free and from your bro, you said it was rough.



KT

I'll clarify then. Cosmetically rough. The brakes are almost like new, I rebuilt the calipers 18 months ago when I got the car. New master cylinder and stainless lines at all 4 wheels. The body is quite solid with two minor areas of concern. Hell hole and a bit of rust in the seam between the passenger side fender and cowl. Aside from that, It's just a matter of prettying it up and a respray. Maybe you're right though. I could just freshen up the motor with 96mm P&Cs, cam, and some compression and put the money I save into the cosmetic things. Then I could have a 914 that's beautiful and has a bit more power than stock. Give it to my daughter in three years and get a perfect example of a 914 that someone has already put a hot RAT motor in. Or perhaps a Boxster?

I'm sure a big FOUR would be fun and all...
I see really nice FOUR powered cars in the $6-8k range for sale.
If you put a $8500 motor in there and still need a trans and pretty work done...Will it be worth $8k in the classifieds?

Choose wisely. ( a SIX )


KT

A four cylinder car can be a wise choice as well.

That's true.

Then the question would be, am I planning on selling it? The present motor needs to be resealed as it sat for a couple years befor I got it. It has an oil leak that I have yet to nail down so I want to pull and freshen it up anyway. So Perhaps I would be happy with the 1911 with a cam. I am very happy with the stock L-jet and don't see the need to change to aftermarket FI unless I go bigger than what stock FI can handle. If I'm going to go that big, I might as well spend the money and get the motor combo that looks like it will fit my needs best. Short of that, would the 1911 come anywhere near my desired acceleration level? Does anyone have dyno numbers from a 1911 with a cam and stock FI?

Stock FI will give stock performance (give or take around 10 hp). Switch the cam and put carbs or aftermarket FI on there and now you're making some power.

IMO, if it's going to be a street car, a 1911 or 2056 (Raby kits, or McMark engine) will great...

it sounds like you want a street/occasional auto-x car with a little more pep than stock... 2056 or 1911 either one will be fine.

if you *really* want to spend 8500 on the engine, then Andy has the right idea, buy a 13k car, either a 6 conversion or big 4...

I like big Raby 4s... but if I really had 8-10k to spend on my 914 engine, a 6 starts looking enticing, eventhough the 4 in that price range may have a little more hp. tough choice, do a serach, many others have had this discussion

the costs, even for a 2056, will jump a bit as you option up on items. while shopping for parts for the onion (not exactly a "kit"), i got to a point where it's "only a little bit more" for what would be an upgrade on various parts and sevices. bumped the price a few hundred or so , but "while i was in there....

k

There is a 2056 with some Raby sourced parts in the classifieds right now.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=49843

Thats a good deal on that engine! I walked the builder through many aspects of assembly and most all the parts were sourced from me, plus he is a professional wrench to boot!

Its a deal for someone!

You can find plenty of good used sixes for under $5K. Dont forget that you would have upgrading to do if you plan to go with a big bore 4.

I'm in the camp of either keeping engine at or below 2056cc with stock FI or go for a six. Now that I have done a six conversion I see the advantages of a 4, but I would do the six compared to a big bore 4 everytime.

Click on my link in my signature if you want to hear a sub $2500 six cylinder. Fully installed it was under $7K. Of course beware that you wont stop at just the engine when doing a six.

So what advantages could a 2056 possibly have over a 6? Also, a 2270 with 165ish tq and hp vs a 6 with the same, why would the six be a better option than the "big four"?

About 4000 miles ago I bought and installed a $7000 2.2 four from FAT Performance here in Orange California. 147 HP with 44 Webers. Runs good, fun to drive (although I have had some valve lifter issues). I'll be installing ceramic lifters this year. Having said that my next car will be a six. Fours are cheaper to work on but a good 3.0 liter six has been nown to last 300,000 miles without any major work. Smooth, reliable 180 HP. A little more weight but a lot more power.

Cheers, Elliot

do you like heat? price out some exchangers for a 6 . as i understand it, a big (2270+)4 will need a GOOD header systen to maximize the power potential.

k

Kevin,
Your heads are being finsihed up tomorrow.. They look great! email me.

(Kevin is getting the first set of "New Generation" heads to ever be sold to the public!)

will do. the staff at RAT sets the benchmark for customer service.

k

kevin - very cool man!

what is the rest of the onion getting?

a cam . reground/parkerised(sp) lifters. the KB pistons from the onion(those, the case, and the rocker assem, the rest was junk). lightened/bal rods. jake opened up a set of nice 94s that i had. the whole rotating assem is back in georgia for a balance. some 44s that came with the cars i bought. the whole mallory setup. i'm going to ceramachrome the intakes. as close as i can get to irish green pc on the tin, filter bases/tops, breather box, etc. heat exchangers.

k

Kevin, The ceramachrome doesn't like intakes or intake ports on Carbbed engines...

ok. just to clarify...my intent was not to do the bores of the intakes themselves, just the exteriors. i was hoping to prevent a bit of the heat sinking for a cooler charge. don't worry, i'm listening.

k