title should be "Do you think "sticky" auto-x tires and or slicks are DANGEROUS??? it....



So I got to thinking that it would be nice to have a second set of rims and tires for the few times that I've auto-x'd and for the few times I plan on going again....

With the price of slicks being pretty well within reach they are tempting...however, I am starting to wonder if there are dangers to going with super sticky tires and wanted to get the thoughts of others...

example 1...

let's say on a particular course one would hit turn 1 at 50mph on street tires..the combination of "slip" along with "squeal" would make the driver back off somewhat....

add slicks, and lets say the speed increases to 60mph with no "warnings" of impeading loss of traction...

It seems to me that the slicks could be dangerous in the wrong hands.....what do you think??

You are correct in thinking that the street tires, DOT Rs will give you more audible feed back before impending doom. For a car with basic suspension set up slicks are a waste of time in my book. If you car is basically a street car. Rs are as high as I would go.

Slicks are better matched to a chassis with reinforcements and much stiffer suspension and bushings. IMHO

Stay with streets or DOT Rs.

Nomex is on.

well, do you want to win?

you can still *feel* them losing grip. they just won't yell at 'ya like a street tire does ...

they start slipping just like any other tire when near the edge of their potential "stick" ...
Andy

Got to say losing by a second wek after week to guys on race tires always has me leaving ready to buy a set.

But then I watch as they spend time putting there tires back on and say OH Nevermind! Did that for years now I jusr want to show up and have fun. I don't care if I win. Let them challenge me to a bicycle race!

The latest Hoosiers slip then stick.

Once you drive a tire to it's max grip.. you will learn were that is and drive the tire on the "edge"

It took 6-8 laps on the new Hoosiers to find out where the grip was. It took me the same number of laps on the Kuhmo's.

Push the tires until you find the limit.

Is a slick harder on the car? It comes down to how hard you drive it.

And.. what is your description of a slick? Some people have different opinions.

Slick in my world: GoodYear, Yoko, Dunlap, Pirelli, Hoosier, Michelin

DOT in my world: Hoosier, Kuhmo, Avon, Falkin

I have a lot of people referring to the Kuhmo's and Hoosiers as "slicks".. um.. NO

B

I think the better the tires stick to the road the better it is. I know when I got rid of the crappy OEM tires on my Honda, the stopping distances drp noticably, with no other modification. Saved my butt shortly after I got the Yokohama tires the first time when someone pulled in front of me. I don't think every yahoo on the road should be rolling R compound tires, but I would not mind doing it myself

I have had street tires that howled like banshees every time you pitched the car a little bit sideways(OEM Michelins on the Honda, lasted forever too, the bastards, I hated those fuchin' tires) Had AVS intermediates after that, quiet, even when giving up grip a bit, totally controllable and predictable. Had some Kumho Ecsta tires after that, cheap, stuck like the the Yokohamas, but loud, in a straight line, on a corner, started to pull late in their lives.

Yokohama makes a heckova tire

"along with "squeal" would make the driver back off somewhat...."

What is "back off somewhat?"

Never hear of that.

That is how Mike drives.. he "backs off" sometimes.

I had the Boxster completely sideways with 3 cars close to my tail at Streets a week or so back. I had no more gas pedal to straighten the car back out.. and the corner was questionable about running it in 3rd and bog the engine or at the top of second (I was expermenting) so.. here I am sideways with a decent distance between me and cars behind me. I take a chance and downshift the car into second and re plant throttle.. car straightened out and I didnt lose my lead..LOL I learned a lot. I entered the corner too hot for third, but coming up on the corner with a downshift into 2nd worked perfect.

Driving on the edge.


B

If it's just the occasional autox, and not an entire season. I'd say get a set of nice Falken's or Hankook's. Sticky street rubber that pretends to be DOT R tires. DOT R tires are super sticky, but don't take kindly to uneccessary punishment. Also, DOT R's tend to heat cylce and die over time. And slicks? Unless you've substantially upgraded the suspension and reinforced the rear console somehow. You're not gonna get much out of 'em. Slicks (Goodyear, Pirelli, Hoosier etc) are really grippy, and will drive very differently than a radial tire (Kumho, Toyo, Yokohama, etc).

And DOT radials are not cheap. Used slicks are definitely cheaper, and occasionally, you can find a half way decent set of cast off DOT R tires behind the tire truck at a track day. So if it's jsut for the occasional autox, and no street driving, go dumpster diving at the track. If it's gonna see street use too, get some nice high performance street tires. I'd steer clear of "slicks" unless you've got a lot of work into the suspension.

Street tires howl and complain as you get close to the limit. DOT R's will talk to you as you ride the limit, and will dramatically out perform street rubber. Slicks will grip forever, even after they start to slide (that's where they're best!), and will put more load on your suspension (and brain) than you ever expected. Oh, did I mention that slicks are awfull fun? Still, slicks are commitment. One that the rules in my class don't allow. Oh yeah, -rules-. Certain classes will allow DOT R tires, and higher level prep classes will allow slicks. If you're shooting for TTOD, be prepared to invest to compete against the fire-breathing-trailer-riding-mosters that are running on slicks...

-Josh2

I guess the point of the original question was kinda lost

To me, in in-experianced hands, "I" think slicks can be dangerous since it ups the speeds and limits at which things happen.

Even on the street with super sticky tires, I can see yahoos getting into trouble...

Hi Mike,

I'll chime in here since I'm a slick advocate.

Going back to your original question, I may disagree that they are more dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced person. I think the threshold limit of grip is higher and you will be carrying more speed, but the local PCA AX's that you may attend (GGR, Redwood Region, LPR) normally design pretty safe courses. That really is a key for letting it hang out. If designed and constructed to the rules, you can spin out, slide out and no person or car should get hurt.

There is a slight issue with slicks liking less camber than a dot r, but that can be overcome, especially for learning and having fun. If you do decide to go slicks, run Hoosiers or other tires that are not Goodyear's. Goodyears really like zero camber, while Hoosiers like some negative. I actually put a set of the Beast's slicks on JLO and took it out for a loop on the on/off ramps of my local expressway. Even with street settings the car stuck like glue.

I do not believe you would be of danger to anyone at one of our well run and designed AX's. And the slicks are relatively inexpensive and last a very long time (I'm talking bias ply, I do not experience with radial slicks). I don't believe you could drive them to the event but maybe you could. If you are driving and not packing on a trailer, the dot r's with steel belts would be fine.

So I'm on record as saying it wouldn't be more dangerous. I'm not saying a certain driver would not be a hazard because that is real life, but I think it's fine.

Bill P.

Yes Slicks should be a graduation from learn to drive. Learn to driver faster then learn to drive on DOT R tires. By then you have modded the car to the point where slicks will allow faster speeds.
Thats the progression I have gone through. Now running doubled spring rates on poly bushings big sway bar and coil overs. welded up some stiffening stuff. and boy I tell ya R25A Hoosier Slicks are a hoot.
1st 400 ft is slippery then it's like flipping a switch to GRIP like crazy. by the end of the 1st run I had the tires to 130 degrees and the next run was all out nuts. Hot shoe in the honda nearly broke his neck tryingto read the time display. Slicks got me 3 seconds faster on a 45 second course.

I think the word here is what kind of car? With a sloppy handling stock car slicks or DOT's can be bad news. I have seen 2 cars roll at the Lone pine "auto-x". They used to let anyone run any tire in any class. One guy in 5.0 Mustang with formula ford slicks (WAY overloaded) went into a tank slapper and flipped another in totally stock base model civic with DOT's just barrel rolled in a slalom - went into the turn leaned WAY over and just kept going. The civic driver had never raced before.
These are pretty extreme and shouldn't have even been allowed to run.

Mike,

Addressing your issue about dangerous? It depends...but if we're talking rookie here... If it's a FWD hot-hatch, then it's a recipie for a rollover. If it's a 914, it's a recipie for a spin, some massive flat spots, and a deflated wallet at the end of the day. Slicks don't take kindly to abuse, and will not behave like a conventional radial. More likely than not, if a rookie goes out on slicks, and they attempt to drive hard, the tires will be toast by day's end. If it's leisurely put around the cones, it doesn't matter what kind of tire it is. But if you push it, race tires will push back.

-Josh2

Mike, sometimes I wonder where you come up with some of this stuff.
Me thinks you thinks too much

EVERYBODY in the SCCA stock classes runs R spec (DOT Rs...whut ever)
tires or they get their doors blowed off. All these cars have stock suspension less shocks, which are free. Somehow they get along with having their tiars talk to them....they have well educated butts & quick hands, me thinks. In my experience,
both R spec & slick tires are more forgiving when one is exploring the outer limits of traction.

No offense intended, but IMO you don't have enuff experience to form a reasoned opinion.....get some & report back

I've been considering a set of Toyo RA 1's for limited street use this summer. I have another set of ES100's on my teletubbies and was thinking of putting the Toyo's on my Fuchs. I can swap them out now and then depending on what my driving plans are for the day.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Try a set of 710's, Mike.

I've run Falkens, Yoko's, Hoosiers and now the 710's.
These are the only ones that recover when a spin seems unavoidable.
I have no regrets with these tires.

Nathan will run them for the first time this Saturday at Alameda. It'll be fun to watch him push the car to the limit. The real fun will be watching the pit lane celebration

The 710's grip is unmatched in a DOT in my experience.


KT

Listen to JP.

Mike I'm trying to remember. Have you run an a/x since April of '04 when I ran for the first time?






KT

Just have to see what my old Victoracers will do.

Last year TTOD at one GGR AX was by a well preparred 924S on brand new RA1s.

All right the car was driven by a 7 or 8 time SCCA champion.

Again the driver is probably the bigger factor...tires...car secondary.

I think that Mike's querry was more hypothetical than anything....

Slicks on a non-preparred car with a novice driver= danger.

Many years ago, I ran a set of DOT R tires as my street tires. Way, way, way fun! For a short time. Problem is, that these tires heat cycle pretty quickly, and go from super sticky, to big ol' rocks. I probably got 3,000 good miles out of 'em before they were all out of grip. They still had lots of tread depth, but had lost all grip. I still drove 'em a bit longer, but they started to scare me with how little grip they had left. Yokohama A008RsII's. So it was a while ago. But the RA-1 has been around a long time, and I would think is not too different from the A008 tires. If anything, they're grippier (the Toyo), and probably would heat cycle even quicker.

-Josh2

Prolly biggest danger is ruining a good set of tires because of losing control over and over.

KT

Some racers that use the Toyo's told me they grip the best right after the tread is gone. This is the 5th-6th weekend, mind you.


KT

Race tires will age and get hard....not a gud buy unless they are used a lot. Also the purpose of DE and AX is how to take your street car to the edge and recover....why change the grip?

Once you strart getting better you WILL beat the weenies on race tires and they will go...gee, what I do wrong? Best feeling in the world.

Changing tires sucks....

I've done a fair amount of instructing for AX.
The first thing I tell folks is "ya gotta know where you're going before you try to go fast". Usually, the only folks that actually hear that are women. After 3 or 4 DNFs
the guys start to listen....mostly.
Male novices are dangerous regardless of what tires they are on....a general statment. I've only come across one "natural".... a young fella that had 6-8 years of kart racing......AX was pretty tame for him

Sure, happens all the time at the Santa Barbra Mall parking lot.

Only danger of running slicks on an AX course are flat spotting them. The danger posed by spinning on an AX course is not significant in my opinion. Especially at Alameda and Marina in a 914. Also dont forget slicks will recover from a potential spin faster too.

If youre rusty or just learning I'd just run Falken Azenis Sports. I could place in top 50% PCA AX events (including cars on slicks) in my Toyota Echo running Falkens.

Once your driving is "dialed in" slicks make a signficant difference.

Biggest danger at AX events are people in high powered cars who dont know when they have lost control.

Great post Grant, That's pretty much my experience too. I'd like to think I am getting better at driving.

Will find out next event with better camber setting for the slicks and higher initial pressures.
If I beat the fancy Schmancy Honda all Ya'll will never heard the end of it. Don't think he can go any faster, I am sure I can.

That is so true. All of the people I've instructed at autocrosses almost always ask "which race tires do you think I should get" before they've had much experience behind the wheel driving in anger. My advice to them is to stay on street tires as long as they can to force them to learn how to drive the course smoothly. Once they start getting smooth and fast on street tires, the jump to race tires (slicks or DOT's) will be HUGE - and they will be much faster than they would if they had run race tires right off the bat.

Race tires in my opinion can mask a lot of sloppy driving, and give you false confidence (I know from my own driving!). I agree that stickies in the hands of a novice driver can be dangerous.

my $.02

You cannot purely equate higher speed with more danger, unless you immediately run at 100 or 100+% capability of the package straight out of the box. You will be surprised how much you can improve as you work up to the car/tires full potential.

Until last November, the only car Joy ever autocrossed was the blue race car. When she first started I could barely feel the tires coming up to temp. Based on how she did at CRAB a coupel weeks back - she is getting closer and closer to realizing the full potential.

One caveat... when the ground is damp (or heaven forbid wet) - slicks are like like trying race on ice.. you will spend more time sideway then going straight

No mall racing here in SB ya oldphart....that's why I transferred to san diego region.....willow springs and the SD stadium has some 100mph sweepers..... .

I ran very few AXs on street tires. One only after adding 80 or so hp
A couple of very good driver/car combos gave me my only wins over them by showing up on street tires.....back when I was running R spec.....about a 3 second swing in our times.

Steve:
It doesn't surprise me that your wife has done well. She doesn't come to an AX ODed on testerone, me thinks.


Mikey:
Talk is cheep, cheese toes. See ya at the WWC AX, eh?

LOL... Joy will get a kick out of the wife comment... especially since we are still BF/GF

Can't make WCC but will be up for Parade and the Autocross that Saturday

Ewwwweeeeee, smack talk from the fartmaster from hell.....

BTW...check out some of the shit being slung on the evilBay auction......
linky

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A: i haven't tried, so i have no idea. you'd need to find one to test at a store first. good luck.



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A: no idea - if USPS offers a calculator on their website you can use my zip of 98006. the headset is silver/grey just like the picture. thanks for not being an idiot!



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Oops, sorry about the wife gaffe.....if she's a gud AXer, marry her
I saw your name on the Parade AX list. It will be good to see ya there.

We are setting up the AX course for the National folks this morning. It's something of a dilemma. They wanna keep it simple as many of the attendees are first time AXers....one of the few things that are a no charge event at Parade. Unfortunately, the venue means simple = fast. If they don't hack it up too much, you're gonna need all 4 cylinders running at this one.

"Cheese toes" was for Mikey. You already did your talking when you blowed my doors off at Mather.

No problem JP... Joy has been doing great. We ran at CRAB (Zone 7 multi-event weekend) and she took TTOD ladies and was 3rd fastest overall. She looked real smooth and fast. She didn't know it at the time, but she defetaed a former Parade TTODL Driver.

Looking forward to getting up there. I am sure that I will need all 4 cylinders chugging away for all they are worth. I am hoping you can order up a clear day, about 80 degrees ;-)

Parade autocrosses have been all over the map... 1st one was one lap of Riverside. I did that in a 356 (1600cc) Coupe and got up over 100mph & scared myself when a desert breeze blew me over a car width At the Sac autocross I was in 4th gear floored and that was in my street 914 - I'dve been in 5th and floored if it was the blue car. The bad sign is that there were cars damaged at both events - so I hope they keep the speeds in check to some degree.

See you when we get there!

Steve