"Did Gugelot design the 914 as claimed by some lately and printed in a few so called expert Publications?"


here's what DGVWPB (Das Grosse VW-Porsche Buch) has to say about this topic on page 23 (scan attached):

==========================
There's a lot of talk and Rumors

The History of the Design of the 914 has often been connected to the Designer Hans Gugelot.
The Source for the worldwide spread of this mis-information is, in retrospect, the Porsche "Bible",
Karl Ludvigsens book "Porsche - Geschichte und Technik der Renn- und Sportwagen".

Quote from his Book:
"How did a car have to look like that on one hand had to fit into the VW Model-Line and
at the same time had to have the signature touch of Ferry Porsche.
For marketing reasons the car had to be different from the current Porsche Model-Line.
There was no intention to simply copy an existing design ... to solve this without bias,
it was decided to outsource the design to the company Gugelot."

Inquiries with the Porsche Factory, personal talks with Ferdinand Alexander Porsche, the head
of the Porsche Design Studios at the time as well as talks with employees of the Gugelot Company
did, however, not verify Ludvigsens theory. Gugelot was never commissioned with the Design of
the 914. Furthermore, Porsche did not use the Gugelot-Auto as the base or template of their own Design.

Ferdinand Alexander Porsche:
"Gugelot never did anything to the Car! They had a car that had a few similarities with the 914,
that's all. The most one could do is to point out those similarities, but Gugelot had nothing to do with the Car.
It's always the same, there's a lot of talk and rumors, like when people say that my grandfather once worked for Renault ..."

Some Background:
In the early 60s, Gugelot together with the Bayer-Werke designed a plastic car that was based on a BMW.
Like the 914, this car separated itself from others through it's clear-cut lines. The car pictured in
Ludvigsens "Bible" and wrongly labeled the "Gugelot-Auto" was in fact a one-off prototype that never
made production. In addition, quite a few other Car designs of that area show similarities to the
Gugelot-Car and the 914, like the pictured Fiat 2300 with a Chassis Design by Pinifarina.

The Myth of Gugelots involvement in the Design of the 914 is especially wide-spread in the American
Literature. David Coleman for example claims that Gugelots "stark" design was influenced by Braun's
Toasters of the same Era ..."
==========================


Andy

PS: click on the thumb below for a full size version of the scan ...

Wow. . . Nice find.

Thanks for ze translation

Vat vas he sinking????

I can't quite read the caption on the lower photo. Does that say FIAT 2800 for Pininfarina?

did 'ya click on the picture?
Andy

Allan's little quote reminded me of this German Coast Guard on Google Videos. LOL "Vat ah yoou sinking z-bout?"

Sorry for the Hi-Jack...back to your normal thread broadcast.

I absolutely LOVE stuff like this...

pete

dude! I know a porsche guy named david coleman. I got some weber parts from him. All I will say is that he is sitting on a VERY LARGE parts stash. hundreds of engines, and some VERY VERY VERY Rare cars...

I always thought the Mustang protype was very 914ish looking

I think that the fiat shares a lot of it's lines with the bmw 2800cs-3.0cs series....but swoopier somehow...Italian stuff I guess....

Braun record player by Gugelot, see the resemblance?

There were several designers who produced their concepts of the 914, who's to know what really happened after the non-disclosures were signed...

and you would know that how?

as stated in the other thread, also from the DGVWPB, there were 5 designs that made it to the finals, all 5 were done inhouse by the Porsche Design Studios.

i have not seen a single schred of credible information that suggests otherwise.

no doubt, there were many design-studies and prototypes that were *based* on the 914, even as early as 1969, but as far as i know, all of those were after the car had already started production.


from DGVWPB ...

--------------------------
"the first sketches were done in 1964 at the porsche design-studios. five different sketches were chosen for the final design choice in early 1966. all 5 sketches were turned into 1:5 size clay models. the (unanimous) vote went to a model designed by Heinrich Klie, then head of the porsche design-studios, who also designed the the first porsche formular 1 racecar and the carrera 6."
--------------------------

attached are 3 pics of klie's clay model that won the contest ... (click on pic for full size version)

:DRUMROLL:

meet the father of the 914, Heinrich Klie, Head of Porsche Design Studios and creator of the 914-Design ...

here's to you Heinrich!

Still trying to get that "true" Porsche connection, huh? Where are the other four designs?

If the Gugelot's BMW proposal was done prior or part of the inhouse competition, I see features heavily predicating or "infuencing" the production design. For instance, the greenhouse shape, the signal light "pods", and the door lines. Hats off to whomever changed the front to mid engine it really helped the proportions. Of course this writer may not have done his homework as you're suggesting.

I really don't care about the whom, but the styling progression interests me...

Is it possible to find these prototypes? er.. the sketches at least?

Very interesting stuff..

Andrew

Though not very Mustangish looking.

Skip

Thanks Andy, this is cool.

Someone has to make a t-shirt of Klie as the 914 designer. That would be nifty.

not really. i would be just as happy if gugelot or bois or pinifarina had designed the 914. no need for a "porsche" connection to like the 914.

BUT, i am *very* interested in the factual history, and it seems Michael von Klodt has done his homework.

i think that the fact that neither Ferdinand Alexander Porsche nor any of the former employees of Gugelot, nor anyone else who was actually involved in the process, can remember Gugelot having anything to do with the 914 design, well, that is fact enough for me ...


btw, your picture above is from Karl Ludvigsens book, which was wrongly labeled the "Gugelot-Auto" in the book.
if you look at the scan of the page from DGVWPB, in the top righthand corner is a picture of the real Gugelot Auto, which was actually produced and driven.

if you're really interested in the "styling progression" you *should* pay attention to the actual facts at hand and not just pick pieces that you would have liked to have played a role ...
Andy

Andy is quite correct, one needs to research history and accept the truthes you discover. There is a lot of crap out there that was just wishful thinking.
Jeff and I have come across some very interesting things about the LE production that has destroyed previously accepted assumptions.

Perhaps we will get a deathbed confession from Butzi: I am the 914's fasher!" (fasher, meaning "father", as in GoldMember movie)

"seems" isn't conclusive to me or any court . I found the Gugelot photo on a PCA site and only have internet material because I've found zero 914 information in the automotive industrial design or styling tradebooks that I'm aware of. Almost all of the articles refer to Gugelot and the VW & Porsche joint venture. Dam me and all the authors who didn't go to Germany to do their homework.

IMHO Porsche gets the credit for completing the 914 design but it was an obvious departure from the Porsche design status que. I believe (as many have written) that an industrial design firm (Gugelot) had a hand because the 914 design is product oriented, not highly stylized and because the conceptual shape is not classic teardrop...

well, you really should get DGVWPB and learn to read german. one of the next pages i'm going to translate actually outlines the whole design process and has personal quotes from Heinrich Klie, among others, as to how, when and where the design of the 914 came about.

you are correct in your assumption that the design was a departure from the classic porsche "teardrop" and as outlined in the book, that was very much on purpose.

you are, however, mistaken when it comes to your assumption of the involvement of the Gugelot design firm. in the book, Klie, Porsche and others cleary state that Gugelot had abosulutely nothing to do with the design and that his firm was most certainly never commissioned by Porsche to do any design work.

the truth is out there ...
Andy

Got to share this, no offence to our German Brothers (Half of me is with you).

"ACHTUNG!

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."


I have this posted on the cube I work in doing Technical Suport for Aerotech. A company that does motion controls and servo systems.

translation?

neither my german nor english is good enough to make any sense of this ...
Andy

Just read in english. Forget about German. Sound out the words and say them out loud.

still does not make any sense ...
Andy

Try one more time. Read it out loud and don't think as you are reading it.

Knowing any german but nicht, der, das, dem and den is hinderance to understanding.

For some reason I think it would help picturing Mel Brooks with a monocal saying it.

Maybe too much english slang?

Two Davids here.

There's the David Coleman you're talking about in VA, who is very into Northeast Porsche circles. He sold one of Bruce Jennings' old Speedster race cars a couple of years ago.

Then there is the David Colman who, used to write for Excellence and is a big fan of 914s, with a 914-6 "GT". I think the German is referring to this David Colman, and believe me it is scary how much the German press refers to Excellence in its historical research. Even at the archive in Zuffenhausen, they remark at how there is nothing similar to the magazine in Germany.

Ever play the game "telephone?" Now try it starting in German and translated to English about half way around the circle.

The truth IS out there...and I too want to find it.

pete

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."



Veeeery loose translation:

This machine is not for finger pokin' and mitt grabbin'
It's easy snapping the springworks
It's not for working on by the dummkoffs
The rubberneckin' sightseein' geeks should keep their hands in their pockets
Relax and watch the blinkin' lights

So anyway, just to keep this thread on topic, if it's true that Gugelot had nothing to do with the design, that blows up the whole storyline that the 914's design was outsourced to a 3rd party to keep it from showing too much influence from one company (Porsche) or the other (VW).

Damn internet misinformation. In the old days, info was harder to get, but somewhat more trustworthy once you got it.

I've always thought the 914 showed more Porsche influence than anyone would acknowledge. The running lights in the leading edge of the front fenders are just a variation on the 356/911 theme, only using turn signals instead of headlights.

Grate, now ist maykeen purfect nugen sensse. Dank yu.

Rrrockhound, I agree. Even my daughter thinks the family resemblence is there. She says all the older Porsches have the rounded front fenders with lights in them.

Nearly ten years ago, as VP of the Porsche 914 Club, I set out to get the final word on this. Although Gugelot has been mentioned ad nauseum, there isn't much more than ink, and a clay model of a car with vaugely similiar features, to substantiate the Gugelot theory.

After discussing the matter in detail with Alex Buller (RIP, the founder and Pres. of the Porsche 914 Club), Alex suggested I contact Jorg Austen, who worked in the Porsche design department, and on the 914 development (clutch and rear suspension). Mr. Austen wrote me a letter (which I still have) and told me the Gugelot story was wrong, and the 914 was a internal design project.

I had some discussions on Rennlist with Charlie Davis regarding this, and he also quoted Ludvigsen (sp), whom Davis regards as an unquestionable athority. The final word (from this camp of the argument) being the Porsche design group would claim responsibility regardless of who was truly responsible. I do not agree with this position. Why would someone like Mr. Austen lie to me?

Of course discrediting Porsche with the design also distances the 914 from "true Porsche purism", which I'd guess would be a position for Ludvigsen to take. I dunno.

I do find it interesting though, that seeing restoration photos of a 904 shows some striking similarites in the rear half of the chassis.

Sloopy research = copy what the most recent "authority" said in his book. Often the original source just accepted hearsay as true and so the myth begins. Excellent thread.

Hello Andy
The Klie clay model is existing today.
A 914-friend became the model as a gift from Mr. Klie as he bought his very early
1.7.
This clay model is a unique 914 how the Klie real 914 with many different parts
as the series.

Wilco

WOW!

i didn't think it would have survived all these years ...

hey wilco, any chance to see some more recent pictures of the model?
Andy

Hey Andy,
I will contact Norbert tomorrow and will ask him
for making any actual photos.

Wilco

I LOVE this place!

If anything, the Gugelot story got Ferdinand Alexander Porsche to admit that there is such a thing as a 914

Hi Andy,
here is a first pic from the Klie 914.

Remember it is a german car.

I hope to become further pics from the car and the clay model.

It can a few days take.

Stay tuned

Wilco


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I see some simularities between the 914 design and these other car designs.

But I also see alot of simularities between Mercedes Benz and alot of rice burners.

Following this logic that would meen that the Benz was designed by Hero Heto?

Following the bread crums It seems that a few people that were directly involved

in the design are saying that Porsche designed the 914 in-house. Why would they

lie? They don't seem to want to claim the 914 as a "Real Porsche" anyway.

An Observation.

Is that photo of the 'really early german 1.7L"? If so why does it have side vents on the dash? Whats the VIN of this car?

Jeff
yes this is the original Klie 914(!) but not mine.

I hope that I get more details in the next days.

My friend is very busy in the next months (SAP introduction), so
that the informations comes not in shortterm.

stay tuned, if I get the Informations I will post these immediate.

Wilco

Say Wilco, great pic. Your english is very good but substitute the word get for the word become and you will be right on.

Thanks for the hint

Good pictures of the embryonic 914. This is better than X-files! The truth is right around the corner. What's a few more days when I've been waiting 30 years. Keep 'em coming Wilco.

Don

here we go....

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with redesigned front.....
done by Klie

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rear

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last one



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