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One more time..............

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=317945

Sold.

I can't believe I'm building another Six...

Pete... oh Pete...

going to convert the CIS to MS???

Probably, esp. considering a new MS-II box just arrived yesterday, to squirt the four in there now. Perhaps I'll use the CIS to MS conversion parts from Blitz, or spend big money on TWM throttle bodies.

Realistically, this engine wouldn't go in the car until next year. I may rebuild it first, and it will take me awhile to gather the rest of the bits (and generate the cash to pay for them). The /4 just started and ran yesterday (with carbs) for the first time in months. Once I have the lights wired, I'll have a drivable 914 again.

I think I know the seller, too. The name is REALLY familiar.

I thought the 2.7 engines are the 'less desireable' ones?

What's involved in a rebuild? 90K miles seems high?

A 2.7L in an of itself is a good motor....check on this board with all the 6 conversions using some itteration of 2.7L.
What got it the bad rap, was in the 75-77 cars with thermal reactors on the exhaust to attempt to meet smog regulations.

Those thermal reactors just cooked the motor because they retained so much heat.

since this motor was out of a 75 it might not be that great of a deal...
IMHO

I might have a lead on a 2.7L from a '79 car with 80K. Is it 'plug-n-play' if I already have a 2.2/6?

What's involved in a rebuild?

Gwen,

a '79 is an SC which only came with 3.0L. Are you sure it is a 79 and not a 74?
2.7L was 74-77 only.
Other than a RS 2.7L .

If it is a 3.0L from a '79 SC that should be a great motor from a car with only 80K miles. SC motors are bullet proof....like 200k miles before rebuild.

Appears to be a much better deal.....

craigslist 3.0

It is the least desirable, which is why it's cheap. It is out of a '75, but it has back-dated HEs on it and an 11-blade fan on it now. The guy claims to have driven it in the '75, and that it's been rebuilt at least once.

I may very well rebuild it again. I'll certainly at least strip it to a long block and look for pulled or broken studs. If I found anything suspicious, I'd tear the whole thing down and probably rebuild it with better cams and pistons, ditch the CIS to get another 30-40hp.

A rebuild, if you ship it off to a quality rebuilder, would run $10K roughly, Gwen. It should be reasonably reliable after that, esp. if you run 914/6 HEs or headers. If you wanted to upgrade the 2.2 you have now to a 2.7, it would be a bolt-on deal. You'd have to swap flywheels, but that's it. btw, a '79 911 SHOULD have a 3.0SC engine in it, not a 2.7. A 3.0SC would be MUCH more desirable, as they're extremely reliable, 250K mile engines. Swapping the 3.0 would involve buying a new conversion flywheel (the 3.0 uses 9-bolts to fit the flywheel to the crank, the 2.0 to 2.7 engines used only 6-bolts), but otherwise would be a bolt up proposition.

That price is insane. I'd be instantly suspicious, but if it really is complete, that's a fabulous deal.

Just as an example, when I got my /6 conversion it had a 2.7 out of a '77.

Noticed a severe head leak when I got it so I sent it out to a rebuilder. My instructions were, tear it completely down and measure everything. Anything that is not well within specs gets replaced. After a few bearings, cams, cam chains, case savers and a few other small items I got it back running great.

Total cost was right around $5200.00

OK, so I got wrong info. The year info came from a co-worker. The engine belongs to his friend who took it out of his 911.

I called his friend. It's a 1977 2.7L engine which he replaced with a 3.0 that his brother built. It's been sitting for a year in his shed and has 85K miles on it. He bought the car in 1985 with 40K miles on it. The engine is complete, has CIS, but he kept the exhaust system for his 911.

Would I need to replace my 901 transmission with a 915 if I upgraded?

Would it be more reliable and enjoyable than my current setup?

He's says to make him a reasonable offer if I'm interested. What's reasonable?

You'd be able to keep the 901 with a 2.7. A LOT less torque than a V8...

A stock 2.7 with CIS will make 165-175hp, and loads more torque than the 2.2 in your car now. Whether this would be more "enjoyable" is up to you. The characteristics of the two (you have a 2.2S, right?) would be very different. The 2.7 would require a lot less shifting to stay on the boil. It also wouldn't have the top-end power rush of an S tuned engine.

I think your reliability problems now are purely electrical, and won't be cured by an engine swap, obviously. Get that sorted, first. CIS is, long-term, much less of a maintenance hassle than MFI. However, your MFI seems to be working well.

As for a reasonable offer, well, that 3.0SC engine is an incredible deal, and I'd snap that up in a second if it's still for sale. For an unknown 2.7, $1500-2000 complete with injection is a good price. The one I've agreed to take is a tad high, but no money has changed hands, yet, and we've not really had the money discussion, yet.

You could probably sell the 2.2S w/MFI engine complete for a good bit more than you'd pay for a decent 2.7 w/ CIS.

So if I'm reading you right, my 1970 2.2S w/MFI is a better engine setup than a 1977 2.7 w/CIS.

My car has never had the umph I expected from a /6, but she's a fun drive when she's willing.

put the 2.7 crank and rods in your 2.2S and then you will have a high compression 2.4 S,

What does that involve? Just buy & install? Drawbacks? Pitfalls?

dissasemble your 2.2, and the 2.7...

swap cranks and rods.....

2.7 cranks and rods cost what? About $600?

Is it worth the effort? Do I get more HP? More Torque?

Torque is basically a function of engine size, so a 2.4 would give you more, and a 2.7 would give you more still. If you find the 2.2 wanting in the "oomph" dept., then by all means, buy that 2.7 (or that $1300 3.0). The 2.2S MFI isn't necessarily a "better" engine, just different. Many people really like MFI, and many like the high-strung nature of an S-tuned engine. Not all do. They're not as practical day-to-day, and you have to keep them well wound up to get power out of them, so they wear out faster.

Since I'm guessing you're mostly interested in a reliable street engine good for daily driving, the 2.7 CIS engine would probably be a better engine for that purpose. The fact that you could, at worst, sell the 2.2 for what you'd buy a 2.7 for is gravy.

I do street driving & occaisional AX & HSDE events. I like the 'always on' kind of umph

Say, hypothetically I can get this 2.7 for $1,500 +/-.

Is it just plug-n-play? Like say, an engine swap party one weekend?

With 85K miles on it, how long should it hold up with normal maintenance?

Drivetrain out, split gearbox from engine, pull flywheel off 2.2, fit flywheel to 2.7, bolt gearbox to 2.7, drivetrain in. Or pretty close. There would be some minor fiddling with wiring.

Gwen, upgrading the displacement or compression of your 2.2 will require reworking the MFI setup, as the space cam in the MFI pump is tailored to the exact engine configuration (no wiggle room at all). A new MFI pump with 2.4S specs or a custom space cam (very expensive, thousands of $) are both not very attractive. I'd definitely do the 2.7 CIS thing before modifying your 2.2, unless you are going to ditch the MFI for carbs (yuck).

With 85K miles on it, how much life is left in it?

With 85K miles on it, how much life is left in it?
[/quote]

I think that's really hard to predict without doing a complete compression and leak down test. Even then it's probably hard to say because the history of the motor is unknown, i.e., maintenance, type of driving, etc.

A 2.2S engine with working MFI is worth a lot more (to the right person, ie restorer of a 911S) than a 2.7 CIS.

[quote name='Headrage' date='May 26 2006, 03:49 PM' post='689356']
With 85K miles on it, how much life is left in it?
[/quote]

I think that's really hard to predict without doing a complete compression and leak down test. Even then it's probably hard to say because the history of the motor is unknown, i.e., maintenance, type of driving, etc.
[/quote]

Let say it was well maintained and driven infrequently. It wasn't pulled because it was broken. It was pulled to put in something bigger.

DUDE! Congrats! Awesome!

[/quote]

Let say it was well maintained and driven infrequently. It wasn't pulled because it was broken. It was pulled to put in something bigger.
[/quote]

If I knew the original owner and did all of the maintenance myself, and kept it up on a regular basis, I would give the motor 200,000 miles, BUT, that is with meticulous maintenance.

You are buying a motor from someone (maybe not) that you don't know.

I have been told MANY times by the members of this club that "Always consider a motor that you don't know as a core motor"

I took my chances and ended up being screwed.

It's your call, plus I think the mfi motor you have is a really good motor if you sort it out...

Just my very humble opinion....

I'll stick it out a while longer with this engine I guess, until maybe a 3.0 or 3.2 engine comes my way

BTW-
I emailed this guy and he confessed that he was wrong, it's not a 3.0, it's a 1976 2.7 engine

Yuck, it looks like it even has the original 5-blade fan ('76-'77 only), which was one of their dumber ideas. I honestly don't know what Porsche was thinking in those years.

No wonder it was so cheap.

For what you want, Gwen, a 3.0 (aka 911SC, '78-'83) would be perfect. Keep the CIS on it, and it will be a great street/AX engine, with plenty of torque. They seem to go for about $4K these days.

Gwen,
I have a 2.7 that I just rebuilt and it sounds nice, looks good too. I can't tell you how it performs as I have no tdriven it yet

If you go bigger than 2.7 conventional wisdom says that you will need an external oil cooler and that will make it not plug and play. The wiring on the 2.7 w/ CIS is very simple and you will not need any special anything to work with you current set up.

It will require removal and/or replacement to the other side of your engine bay latch mechanism.

I'm running a 3.2 with the stock oil cooler and have had no engine temp issues.

do you AX or track the car?

you would find you would need one i bet

Gwen wants to track it...Cooler needed.


Who knows something about putting bigger pistons in a 2.0 case for a 2.5-2.8 hypo motor?


KT

Just a street car.

AX probably would be fine too but not tracking.

If tracking a car you probably need to worry about a lot more stuff than just an oil cooler anyway.


P.S. I don't know what I'm talking about anyway with respect to other cars. Just my own car experience.

2.0L 4 cylinder benefit from an external oil cooler when seeing heavy track duty. Especially here in norcal where we see lots of track days at TH and BW in the hot months.

Gwen,
You would even want an external cooler on your 2.2S if you got serious about the track. Helps to keep the oil cool if you want some motor internals longevity.

Many here advocate not doing a cooler unless you go 2.7L or larger.
The advice I have gotten from a 30+ year Porsche trained mechanic that has had many 6 cylinder 914 track cars.....get an external cooler up front....period. He has tried just about every alternate mounting position and they just are not very efficient.

If you want a 2.5 to 2.8, you'll need a different crank. The 2.0 and 2.2 engines used the 66mm crank, where the 2.4 and 2.7 used a 70.4mm crank (so did the 3.0, but it was a different crank completely). You'll also need new Nikasil cylinders to go with the new pistons, which will set you back a pretty penny.

Bruce Anderson's book pretty much lays out all of the details.

arent there 2 ways of doing a 2.5?

2l crank with 2.7 barrels and 2.7 crank with 2l barrels?

Trekkor with your sandcast case bore it and stroke it (2.4-2.7 crank) up to 2.9 (Mahle piston and cylinder set. 10.3-1 4K)
add piston squirters too.

that is too funny...someone recommending to Trekkor to spend that kind of money to rebuild his /6 for more power
...kinda defeats doing a /6 conversion "on-the-cheap"

Trekkor asked,
His cheap motor is a great starting point for just about anything else , if he decides to spend dough on it or just buy a 3.6

I don't know about the 2.7 with 2.0 barrels, but the 66mm crank with the 90mm barrels is mentioned in Anderson. However, it results in an engine with only 7:1 compression. Perhaps you can get pistons that will raise this. You also have to machine the cases and the heads, and the 2.7 cylinders will have to be Nikasil. This is pretty much a $3000 upgrade unless you really cheap out and find used cylinders. It would probably be just as easy and cheap to find a complete 2.7 to start with.

There are new nikisal pistons on the market from QSC I have seen these available for under 1k, I have no idea about the quality of this but a few reputable engine builders are using and selling them.
You can match these to a set of J&E pistons all for under 2K

Thanks for the info guys

Unfortunately I need to spend my money on sorting the electrical gremlins before the WCC. thought I had that sorted

The distributor wires are corroded, so maybe if some key wires get cleaned my problems will be solved probably not that easy though nothing about this car has been an easy fix

The 2.7 S would be a much better set up than any 2.2 S or 2.4 S. The early 911E
was faster from 0-60 and 1/4 mile than the same year 911S, which only came into
play with its horse power on the very top, a pain to drive in traffic. The switch to
2.7 S on the 914 will give you take-offs with idle or smocking tires from start and second with car trying to catch up with engine at redline almost. Despite the higher
horse power numbers supposingly generated by the 2.2 S (180) compared to 2.7 S
of 74 (175). and the derated net power of 167 HP for 1975-1977, the 2.7 will blow the doors of any 2.2 S. Dimitri