I have an issue that I came across several years ago while judging a particular class of Porsches that made my blood boil. One of the judges I was working with was judging engines and wheels, etc, when I noticed he was deducting points from cars that didn't have the pointed end of the Porsche emblem on the hub caps pointing to the tire stems. I couldn't believe it! I inquired as to why he was doing it and his response was it was a typical issue to look out for at Porsche concours. I said that it had nothing to do with originality and the factory would never waste time installing hub caps like that. He insisted that is what he was taught to do and it originated on the west coast. So from that time forward, whenever I was given the oportunity to judge, I made sure to pick the engine/wheels catagory.
Has anyone else had this experience? Where did it originate and why?
BTW, this applies to all stock 914-6's or modified 4's.

Don

"taught to do"? Jeez, this is the kind of judge that screws for the purpose of screwing! There aren't many of them (fortunately!) but there are judges out there that have the mindset of gigging whrever & whenever they can. If they can't find somehting wrong, they invent it. They seem to be above the spirit of the event, or they just don't have a clue what they're doing.

I had a judge at a Parade try to deduct points from my '72 because it hadretractable belts! He was a 356 guy (unnamed here) who shouldn't have allowed near 914's, or anything other than 356's. I complained to the chief judge, who knew 914's & accepted my plea, ut later on looked at my score sheet & another judge had deducted because my jack was a screw-type instead of lever type. I wound up 2nd to an inferior 914 because of it, but didn't find out about it until too late to protest.

You get what you pay for!

What an absurd idea...pointed at the valve stems!

That's why I will judge any time I'm asked. Yeah, sometimes I feel like I've paid my dues after 30+ years of concours chairing & judging & that I should be left alone to bullshit with everyone else. But I know that some newbire judge who's been "trained" will take my place if I don't & someone is bound to get screwed!

Boy, just once...just once, Id like to enter a concours & not have to judge.

Sorry for the diatribe - needed to vent!

The word "trained" could be substituted for "learned". Check out the nice modified 914 from "kargeek" in the above poll. Beautiful car! Check the emblems pointing to the valve stems. That's what got me reminiscing. This was just not one judge, mind you. It was prevalent with the others. I know for a fact that NNJR has a judging school on occasion. That could be one of the sources of this ill advised issue. I spoke with John Patereck about it long after the fact and he agrees with me.
I'd like to see if others chime in with their experiences and observations.

Don

Uh Oh! The radio isn't dialed into the Factory settings! Shifter isn't in neutral! You have too much/to little lubricant on your door hinge!

These are the silly things that have run people away from trying concours with very nice cars. One taste of this silliness can taint anyone.

Here's another example, though it's unique! About 10 years ago, I competed in a multi-marque event for the Arthritis Foundation - an event that's been going on in Cincinnati sine the mid-70's. The way it works is, if you won your division in the past you can no longer compete in that division (gives the others a chance to win - no real problem with this concept). So, you're classed with prior division winners (which is kinda cool). Problem is - none of the judges of this class know what or how to judge these cars. My 914 was in the same class as a Stanley Steamer, Ferrari Barchetta & '56 T-Bird, among others. Few international judges are competent to judge all these cars, particularly if you throw in something lowly as a 914-4!
Well, the chief judge knew something about T-Birds & was impressed by the taped chassis shims underneath - that car was portrayed as show as it would have been delivered to the dealer, with chassis shims to be used for chassis alignment! It was atruely remarkable car & I placed second. If the judges had been truely versed they'd have known the Barchetta as a Mille Milia winner in 51 or 52 & that it should have beaten both of us by AT LEAST 10 points in preparation!

Point is - qualified judges are few & far between. Many know everything about somethings & nothing about others. Don't think that will ever change.

Entrants are always going to lose because of this type of judge. Not in every event, but there are always going to be sad stories. Take your lumps & move to the next event.

BUT, at a Porsche only event - there's no excuse for this. Please, people - if you're not qualified to judge a 356, don't attempt it. If you know 914's - don't get sucked into judging 911's. If you're a "trained" multi-model judge - you're not! I don't care if you're a 50 year owner of Porsches, you don't know the nuances of each model. Stick to what you DO know & leave the rst for those who also DO know. We'll always get sucked into judging, no matter how hard we protest!

There, I'm spent!!!!! Sorry, this is a real sore spot with me.

I hate to say it but as a PCA judge I ran across the same "crest points at stem " issue last year in the our region; he rationalized that its what they do at Parade. The head judge insisted that .25 be deducted for any mis-alignments; I challenged it but he said "No biggie, fix it before judging", however, not all caps pop off, many you have to remove the wheel to get the cap off, not easy to do on the day of the show if you were unaware of this standard which is not published anywhere in the local concours rules. It has nothing to do with maintenance condition, cleanliness etc. and all it does is convince any new concours contender who lost a whole point to determine that this is "mickey mouse" and he won't return.

The obvious solution is to have wheels without hub caps.

Skip

I've been doing this Concours thing for 30 years now and there is one thing I've learned; Judging is consistantly inconsistant. I've gotten points off from the glue that oozed out while the factory fitted the dash! If I removed the glue would it be still original? Its all rediculous but, when you think about it, the whole concept of "show cars" is rediculous. Just ask the Porsche family. They don't understand why anyone would trailer a Porsche since their entire focus is on engineering, designing, manufacturing and marketing the best DRIVING car in the world! However, its that rediculousness that makes it fun. And I think that's the key word here; FUN. When you start getting angry and protest etc., etc. you begin to wring the fun out of the hobby. Also, judging is purely subjective, really kind of an organized popularity contest. So now my main objective is to go and have fun, rekindle old friendships, and have a couple of beers. I win no matter what because I have FUN.

The Zone One Porsche Club of America's annual concours was held a couple of weeks ago in Danbury CT. In an attempt to attract more attendees they have instituted a street class to basically drive your car there and enter peoples choice. They also are very generous, points-wise with the full concours judged cars. I guess they figure this will not scare away the novices. I actually think they've watered down the event so much that I, quite frankly, don't spend as much time preparing the car as I used to. It might have been one of the reasons (along with the threat of rain) for such a light turnout.

Getting back to the Crest line up to the valve stem. It all boils down to details. When cars are being judged that are very close in points, its the guy that lines up all the screws, crests, etc. that presents the car in such a way to attract the judges eye and hopefully more points. Knowing that they look for lined up crests, pop the wheels and line 'em up. What's the big deal. If you think its stupid, eat the points. I refuse to remove the glue on the dash and I eat the points every time. I do make it a point to mention to the judge that the glue is factory original!

David Cheek

I've been doing this Concours thing for 30 years now and there is one thing I've learned; Judging is consistantly inconsistant. I've gotten points off from the glue that oozed out while the factory fitted the dash! If I removed the glue would it be still original? Its all rediculous but, when you think about it, the whole concept of "show cars" is rediculous. Just ask the Porsche family. They don't understand why anyone would trailer a Porsche since their entire focus is on engineering, designing, manufacturing and marketing the best DRIVING car in the world! However, its that rediculousness that makes it fun. And I think that's the key word here; FUN. When you start getting angry and protest etc., etc. you begin to wring the fun out of the hobby. Also, judging is purely subjective, really kind of an organized popularity contest. So now my main objective is to go and have fun, rekindle old friendships, and have a couple of beers. I win no matter what because I have FUN.

The Zone One Porsche Club of America's annual concours was held a couple of weeks ago in Danbury CT. In an attempt to attract more attendees they have instituted a street class to basically drive your car there and enter peoples choice. They also are very generous, points-wise with the full concours judged cars. I guess they figure this will not scare away the novices. I actually think they've watered down the event so much that I, quite frankly, don't spend as much time preparing the car as I used to. It might have been one of the reasons (along with the threat of rain) for such a light turnout.

Getting back to the Crest line up to the valve stem. It all boils down to details. When cars are being judged that are very close in points, its the guy that lines up all the screws, crests, etc. that presents the car in such a way to attract the judges eye and hopefully more points. Knowing that they look for lined up crests, pop the wheels and line 'em up. What's the big deal. If you think its stupid, eat the points. I refuse to remove the glue on the dash and I eat the points every time. I do make it a point to mention to the judge that the glue is factory original!

David Cheek

Good comments all. Especially Tom with experiencing the same issue out on the west coast. I'll say one thing. It's not going to happen on my watch. All my judging with Porsches (only once a year anyway) is relegated to cleanliness. That's the way the regional annual concours is set up. As it is, they volunteer me in the water pumper class. I'm no "expert" when it comes to water pumpers, but clean is as clean does.
Dave, I have also seen very liberal judging in the Zone 1 event. Very high scores.
Parade rules have changed since I last entered in '91 and have become more diverse in classes. I agree that there are only a handfull of experts on 914's out there who actually know every detail of every model and year. My experience is to communicate with the owner if you are a judge or ask questions to the chief judge if you are an entrant before judging begins.

Don

I've been doing this Concours thing for 30 years now and there is one thing I've learned; Judging is consistantly inconsistant. I've gotten points off from the glue that oozed out while the factory fitted the dash! If I removed the glue would it be still original? Its all rediculous but, when you think about it, the whole concept of "show cars" is rediculous. Just ask the Porsche family. They don't understand why anyone would trailer a Porsche since their entire focus is on engineering, designing, manufacturing and marketing the best DRIVING car in the world! However, its that rediculousness that makes it fun. And I think that's the key word here; FUN. When you start getting angry and protest etc., etc. you begin to wring the fun out of the hobby. Also, judging is purely subjective, really kind of an organized popularity contest. So now my main objective is to go and have fun, rekindle old friendships, and have a couple of beers. I win no matter what because I have FUN. [/quote]

I couldn't agree more...In one concour event where two cars were tied for top score points, the tie breaker was to check air pressure in the tires! One car had 7lbs less air in one tire so, it got the deduction! So, in addition to lining up your valve stems/ hub caps you might as well bring your jack and move the wheels to line up all four porsche crests...as well as check your tire pressure!

Sixerdon, thank you for your nice comment about my car!

Dave H

[quote name='Kargeek' date='Jun 2 2006, 03:12 PM' post='694624']
I've been doing this Concours thing for 30 years now and there is one thing I've learned; Judging is consistantly inconsistant. I've gotten points off from the glue that oozed out while the factory fitted the dash! If I removed the glue would it be still original? Its all rediculous but, when you think about it, the whole concept of "show cars" is rediculous. Just ask the Porsche family. They don't understand why anyone would trailer a Porsche since their entire focus is on engineering, designing, manufacturing and marketing the best DRIVING car in the world! However, its that rediculousness that makes it fun. And I think that's the key word here; FUN. When you start getting angry and protest etc., etc. you begin to wring the fun out of the hobby. Also, judging is purely subjective, really kind of an organized popularity contest. So now my main objective is to go and have fun, rekindle old friendships, and have a couple of beers. I win no matter what because I have FUN. [/quote]

I couldn't agree more...In one concour event where two cars were tied for top score points, the tie breaker was to check air pressure in the tires! One car had 7lbs less air in one tire so, it got the deduction! So, in addition to lining up your valve stems/ hub caps you might as well bring your jack and move the wheels to line up all four porsche crests...as well as check your tire pressure!

Sixerdon, thank you for your nice comment about my car!

Dave H
[/quote]

But the point should be - the Factory didn't provide the car with the crests aligned towards the valve stems. It's absurd & shouldn't even be used as a tie-breaker! There are many other tie-breaker items that can be used, as you suggested: tire pressure, dirt in the tailpipe, excess lube on the door hinges, incorrect plating on some obsure part...it goes on. The car should be judged on an as-delivered basis, not on other silliness that has nothing to do with Factory construction.

I've been on the butt end of some judges who knew nothing about 914's (Yes, at Parade level) who gave points to a competitor for incorrect items & I've never protested. It's not in my makeup & takes away from the spirit of the event. BUT, if some judge gave credit to a competitor whose wheel crests were lines up with the valve stems & I don't even have wheel crests......well, Mr. Niceguy goes away & I'll protest all the way to the PCA President.

Stupid!

Air in the tires, huh? That's a new one on me. I'll remind myself to get some bottled German air from the area around the Porsche factory and declare it for what it is. FACTORY AIR!

Anyway, interesting discussion. My goal is to take matters into my own hands when I'm appointed as a judge. I agree with Pat to focus on the reality of what came from the factory as close as possible. There are enough alternate issues that can be used to separate a tie. Air in the tire isn't one of them.

Don