Sorry, Noel was still logged on....and I can't delete this for some reason

Ok, how? I now understand what Ed was saying about cutting an access hole in the fire wall. What a PITA.

I would pull the vacc advance, plug it and rev to 6K. When I would adjust the dizzy it would run worse or better then worse (over the spectrum; bad-good-bad), but it would not move the timing visually. I have a couple of questions:

1. Do I need to adjust the timing to the RS cams that I had installed?
2. What is that value?
3. Anyone want to come down and do it for me?

I just did this on Liz's car with a timing light and a mirror.

I left the vacuum attached to verify the advance at speed.

I'm not sure whether or not your cams require something different.

It's a pain, but you'll get it.

I think many people mark their flywheel for TDC and use the flywheel port on the tranny case for timing?

I'm sure the captain will tell you that he has timed too many 914-6's to remember with a mirror or patience.

me...
I just sit comfortably in my driver seat and turn my head slightly to do my timing:

I had to deal with this yesterday. Take the time to setup the flywheel with the appropriate marks for TDC, 120 degrees, 120 degrees. Then, no mirrors, and much more accurate.

The only hard part is getting it to perfect TDC, it's a little tough to get with a mirror and an odd angle. I also verified physically by using a TDC indicator. Not sure I like the tool, but it does work, even if you don't have any other marks to reference.

this is the final step to getting my car running this week.....finally

I don't get it. You guys keep saying TDC, but I thought that I was trying to get it to 30-38 BTDC at 6k rpm. Am I completely off? It has been a loooong time since I hade to do any timing and then it was a /4 which is cake. Could someone enlighten me as to what I am supposed to do?

Latest update:
I took it for a ride down the street, pulled it over and adjusted the timing, another block, same, worse, sounds like shit, power is unimpressive.

I barely made it to the gas station (low gas may have been a factor in how it was running) put some gas in it, adjusted timing again and it ran OK (not spectacular at all), got home and got on the bike.

I do know now that my allignment needs to be adjusted, it was very shaky.

Should I be looking to adjust the valves now? Oil/filter?

Thanks.

You have to establish "top dead center" for cylinder #1 in order to measure 30 degrees before top dead center at "X" RPM (usually full advance by 4000). A timing light with adjustable advance is a huge help here. If the engine is out of the car, you can find TDC on 1, and then measure out 30 degrees and add the mark, but it's tough in the car, so the adjustable light is great if you have to work off a TDC mark.

If you can find the mark on the crank pulley, and line it up as best you can with the fan housing notch, then verify that #1 is at the top of it's stroke, and the rotor is indeed pointed to plug #1, you can put a dab of whiteout on the flywheel in the notch at the top rear of the engine. You can then use that mark to time it using the aforementioned adjustable light (set the dial to 30 degrees, rev the engine to 3000+ rpm, and adjust as needed until the mark lines up with the case parting line.

That was the piece that I was missing, the ADJUSTABLE timiing light. I was finding TDC with no problem ....all the time

RS cams and CIS dont work, do you mean SC cams?
Here is the timing spec 74-75 911-911S

Any recommendations?

Thx,

Skip

I've got an Actron from Autozone, seems to be sturdy and work well. CP7519, about $70. Some of the nicer models are all digital and have lots of wiz bang features like being able to map the entire advance curve.

Quite right, SC cams are what I have not RS. Thanks for postingthe timing specs.

One of the guys that stopped by Matts house yesterday pointed out to me that my advance weights in the dizzy may be stuck. This was in response to me asking what I was missing about why my timing would not change with the vacuum hose disconnected no matter how much I revved it or changed the dizzy.

Questions:
Do I have weights in my dizzy with vacuum advance?
Do I need to leave the vacuum hose attached and check to see if the advance is at full when it is supposed to be?
Do I still need to get a light with adjustable advance?

I can time it with the mirror and light, but I am not getting it to behave the way that I am expecting. I have forgotten more about this stuff then I can believe.

Weights are used in a distributor that has mechanical advance. Your distributor has both vacuum and centrifugal (mechanical) advance. To set the timing you disconnect the vacuum hose and set the timing to the spec for maximum centrifugal advance at the specified rpm.



I've never needed one...

You need a light with adjustable advance ONLY if you're timing to a different advance than stock (so the max advance mark is in the wrong place), OR, if you're only have a TDC mark (many 914/4s).

I thought you were doing crankfire on this engine...

Ok, getting a little clearer. Thanks Gents.

I will eventually be doing crank fire, but I would like to get it working OE first before I start goofing with new things Plus, I need to figure out how to program it as well.

So to make sure I am getting this:
-Provided I have a correct mark on the pully (I'll check), and provided that the weights are not stuck (again I will check), I will be looking for the specified amount of advance with the hose off at the specified RPM which should be accomplished via the dizzy weights, right?

I just cant figure out why it runs so crappy, particularly on startup. Once warm I can coax it to idle, but I have little or no power at all and it sounds unhappy.

at idle 900 RPM's hose attached 5 degerees after top dead center,
hose unhooked 38 max at 6000RPM's

Is it lean or rich ?

Lean or rich is a good question. I know that I have the cold start injector unhooked, and when I hooked it up it would backfire badly and still started hard. Also, when I am trying to start it I have to modulate the peddal vigorously no matter what when it is cold. this always leads to a rev and a die, and rev and a die, pop pop, etc.

Any ideas what to check now? I am guessing that it is most likely rich if it is wrong.

Wild guess: dirty fuel and/or a fuel distributor in need of a rebuild (potentially from old dirty fuel). If so, it would be quite lean, which would make starting (esp. cold) very difficult. CIS really hates dirt.

Here is some more info to help with the diagnosis:

I cleaned and sealed my tank and replaced fuel lines with SS.

When I drove it down to the gas station, it did not run hot (like I would have guessed if it were lean).

Maybe I need a new fuel filter?

All gas is brand new.

try just makin richer or leaner with the mixture screw (1/4 turn is alot) never know might work.
dont loose track of where you start if you turn the screw. you can do it while running.

Here you go:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....ture+adjustment

Thanks for the link.

I also for got to mention that I cleaned, inspected and tested all of the injectors.

Jeff, that link really cleared a bunch of things up for me. Thanks a bunch. I think I can chase down some of these issues now.

I just need to find the IDLE set screw.

The fuel distributor could be varnished up from sitting with gas in it. With CIS, you can't just clean the injectors and get a clean system.

Very lean does not make an engine run hot. Peak CHT, in fact, occurs just barely rich of stoichoimetric. Leaner than that, and it runs cooler. If oil temp is your only guide, you have to run for quite a long time to get the oil temp to show much difference due to mixture. Even then, the change would be small enough that it would be hard to see on a typical oil temp gauge.

Originally the plunger for the distributor was varnished and needed attention. How would I unvarnish the inside parts other than that?

I have a CHT and oil. I can't afford to goof with wrecking this engine, I have no job or money to fix any catastrophic occurances

I bet you loved using the word "stoichiometric", admit it

Get this, originally the engine had a straw (one like the ones that come wiht your WD 40 can ) stuck into the air intake boot between the throttle body anf the fuel flap I guess the previous owner could not find the adjustment stuff either. At least I ask.

Ah, you took the plunger out. I don't know of many people brave enough to do that. The tolerances on the internal parts of the fuel distributor are (apparently) ridiculously tight. If the plunger was varnished, it's possible (likely, even) that the per-cylinder nozzles inside the distributor are, as well.

You might try running a bottle or two of Techron through the system.

Actually, to stop the tail chasing on my side, I put all of the injectors in bottles and they all flowed (after I cleaned two of them) enough...I actually thought that they flowed a lot (maybe too much) of fuel.

Let me goof with the damn adjustments before you go freaking me out with what expensive parts I destroyed or need to replace

If the throttle plate stop screw ,still has yellow paint on it dont mess with it. Most adjustment is air bypass screw (big springloaded flat head) by throttle lever and fuel mixture. 3mm screw (threw hole in housing in between fuel distributor and boot.)
Unless as James state is true and or some one really messed with it probably needs basic adjustments. Good Luck

Where the hell is the idle mixture setting screw? I know where to adjust the air, but not the fuel and the book and various sources are no help as of yet.

Sorry, you posted when I was typing.

takes a long allen wrench

And today in /6 news....

So I took the air filter off to monkey with the plunger from underneatha nd see if I could figure out more how it all works. I found the little hole inbetween the dist and the intake boot for adjusting the mixture...I am pretty sure it had been goofed with during its life.

Further diagnostic concepts/settings to thnk about:
1. I screwed the air bypass all the way in. It was rediculously out. this lead to much less popping, but no real running.
2. Upon removal of the air filter I noticed a nice smoke cloud comeing form the air box, = too rich now?
3. I thought too rich so I slowly added air to the mix withthe screw in 1/4 turns. Smoke disappeared and engine returened to normal, non running well condition.
4. I am alone, so I put a spacer in the air box to prop up the air plate about 1mm. tried to start, no real improvement....hard to tell.


I have a question about the plate set up:

-Does the plate have a washer that is supposed to go under it as it attaches to the arm? For some reason I thought it did, and that mine was missing this part.

I need to get a longer allen. I believe it to be a 4mm actually as my 3 will reach it but seems to just turn freely in the socket.

Looking at this diagram I see where the adjust bolt should be, but instead it is like a hook.
Also, I do not see a shim under the plate. I am missing the washer on top, but it is of no consequence with my given problems.

#8 on your diagram is the plug pull it out and insert 3mm long arm allen into hole it will enter allen screw on#11 , that adjusts plunger hieght ,making rich or leaner

The more I study the diagram the more I realize that I may have a substantial air leak where it looks like #8 goes on top of the adjuster.

Anyone have an idea about that?

Ayup, I do not have a #8.....might be a problem.

alot of them are missing #8 , not an air leak for mixture, a dirt entry point though

Doing some more noodling on this. From the web site I posted earlier on the CIS I found a great pic (below). I find it hard to see how air could not leak in if #8 was missing, though. Ah well, I'll make it make sense.

Interesting to note, smdubovsky reminded me that my advance may not have worked in my dizzy due to stuck fly weights. I was like, "It has flyweights?" Sure does, and they were not optimal, so I cleaned them. Cleaned the points plates as well. Will have to see how it goes.

I got a long 3mm allen for my mixture control. It is definetly screwed up some how. I get it to barely idle for a couple of seconds with no throttle cold. As soon as I touch the petal it dies. Also, after I do this is smokes a lot. Very stinky.

Here are the instrucitons from the web site:

An approximation of the correct idle mixture can be made by the folllowing:

* With the engine warm and running, slightly lift the air flow sensor plate.
* If the RPM immediately falls off, the mixture is probably too rich.
* If you pull down, and the idle falls off, you could either be too lean, or about right. Do the step immediately below to find out.
* If the RPM slightly rises, then falls off as you continue to raise the sensor plate, it may be close to right.
* You are trying for about 14.7:1.
* The required movement of the sensor plate is slight, on the order of maybe a 1/16" or less.

Air "leaking" in through the #8 hole still has to go up past the plate to get into the engine, so that's not a air leak that will affect mixture. All that does is give you a idle air leak, restricting (slightly) your ability to adjust the idle speed. If you can still get the idle speed down to 800-900rpm, that hole isn't significant. If you can't, just put some tape over it to see if that helps.

If you're getting black stinky smoke, then you're probably way rich at idle. If I remember correctly, you don't have a cold-start valve anymore, right? If not, try turning the idle mixture screw a full turn (this is a huge adjustment) lean. If you can beg, borrow, or steal a wideband mixture meter, or time on a gas analyzer, I'd do so.

Thanks James. The smoke is grey and stinky, not black if that matters. I have disconnected the CSV.

I would bet the PO messed with the settings as I remember a small hose (like the one that comes with a can of WD 40) poking out of the air intake boot. Seems like he was trying to lean out the mixture in a most retarded way.