I'm curious as to why we don't see more Type I engine conversions in the 914. I've noticed an incredibly strong aftermarket support for the Type I engine as opposed to the Type IV engine, enough to make it seem it is in fact a superior platform. Autocraft, Pauter Machine, and many others make incredibly powerful type I engines. Pauter machine is getting 980hp and 780ft/lbs of torque out of one, which makes many Type IV engines, even many extreme ones look rather tame. Anyone here running a Type I engine?

You won't get much support for that idea, even though you could build a stronger, equally reliable motor for less $ than you could for an equal T4 engine. Part of the issue would be the engine cooling system as you'd want to separate the engine hemispheres as you do in the T1 & T4 engines.

It would be nice if this topic was treated like any other engine conversion (Suby, Chevy, Porsche 928, etc.) instead of a T1 vs. T4 endless debate...

Ah, sorry, not meaning to bring up a tired debate. Type I engines are out of the question in my situation since the Porsche Club makes any non-porsche engine run in the "Fun" class.

For the cooling system, we're already using a different cooling system, we removed that fan on the end of the crank long ago.

Could someone explain the difference between a Type I and Type IV engine. I see
it mentioned often here, but I am not a VW expert at all.

Thanks,

Jeff

A late 356 engine would be something worth checking out. Its essentilly a Type 1 engine. I don't know about the cooling situation though. What would really be aweome is a Penske 917 engine. 1200 + hp!!!
Konrad 72/ 4 Type IV

Did you think you could post that without someone asking for more? So please share details about your cooling system.

How can you seriously call the $20,000 Pauter motor a Type I???
and how many hours at that HP level will it sustain?? those motors are measured in minutes and hours, not miles.....

you mentioned the "fun" or Exhibition (for auto-x only, no time trial, at least in our area) class, that is one reason, as well as the lack of a bolt-on exhaust plus other factors, if someone is going to spend the time and money to do a non-Porsche powerplant, there are better engines than the Type I...I'm sure it's been done, I know of at least on wasserboxer engine in a 914 which is basicly a watercooled type I so it can be done.

jd66921,

the type IV is a slightly heavier duty version, block is more stout and the design from the factory allows the type IV to handle heat and stress better as delievered.

The issue is how much you wanna spend and how long you want the engine to run between overhauls. There was a thread a few weeks ago which had some BOLD statements about how much more fun it WAS, statements from those who spent much time and money on conversions even Porsche 6s, to run a stock four banger compared to a heavier/stronger engine. The lighter engine keeps the car nimble, the center of gravity low, and keeps the car light without any heavier parts to keep it from roling around turns. I've busted my head on this issue and a 5K T4 stroker seems to be the best way to go.



The Purist Minimalists operate under the KISS method!

Mostly a trade secret, but I'll give a hint, they're electric.

electric cooling fans are nothing new here. you should conduct a poll asking how many people use them, or one asking how many people have removed them from their 914s.

k

ooh.. a trade secret...

seeing how 2 companies make electric fan kits.... not really a secret...

+, another load for our already overtaxed alternators.

k

The only electric cooling fans that should be allowed are:

1) Oil cooler fan
2) A/C condenser fan
3) Squirrel cage or other fans for the ventilation system

An electric cooling fan is an excellent idea for a drag car to plug into an extension cord at the end of a run (to cool the engine faster between runs).

of the 2 major types sold, they are marketed to the racer...most people that ask about them or the few that have tried them are for street cars....

I would think that if someone tried hard enough, an electric solution could be made for a street application that would work fine...you cannot beat the stock setup for reliability, the type I or even 911 comes in second due the risk of belt failure...I do like Chris Foleys method of having a pressure sensing switch to let him know if he breaks or throws a belt....

I'm glad none of you agree. We need to keep our advantages at the auto-X.

key is auto-x for that application........

other people do use them, like I mentioned before, it's one of those items that "newbies" see in the magazines and think that they can install one and go sit in traffic on Hwy 17 while going to Santa Cruz and be fine

do your electic fans keep the engine temps down when you drive your car to the auto-x?

k

I don't think driving it to the autocross would be very fun considering the huge rear swaybar, 280lb springs, and no mirrors. Add that to no ground clearance

Alright experts, exactly how many hp does the crank driven fan rob? I have seen it posted before but for the life of me I can't remember. Maybe 3-5hp?

I'm sure Jake knows but I forget too.

and so what if it is "only" 5hp???

it is still more hp than you had before removing the crank driven fan...any gain in hp is a positive....also the claimed weight saved is a good 20lbs, also important....

his car sounds like it's a purpose built auto-x car and that the fan must work since if it's the blue car in his avatar, I've seen it run before and he might have gotten TTD at that event or right up there near it...

oh. it's not a street car. now i understand the use of electric cooling fans. do they keep things cool during a 15 to 20 minute track session?

k

Well.....this is my thoughts on an electric fan vs the stock fan set up on a a/x car.

Electric fan: You'll need or should run an alternator or a stock sized battery to power the fan and for starter power. If running a alt you could run a mini-battery and be OK. But if you're not running an alt I'd run a stock size battery. Alternator = weight= bad. Stock battery= weight = bad.

Stock fan: No alternator needed and you can start the car with a mini battery. Lighter overall weight. I've made 6 a/x runs without a battery related problem with my little battery. Stock fan is time tested and works. Only Jakes DTM would be better. I've seen the after market flat electric fans but don't know if they have been tested like the DTM. Also there is the simple fact that when my engine is running, my fan is always working and it is one less thing to think about. KISS

Paul

totally well said Paul! an alt weighs bout 5 lbs and about 5hp to run according to Jake IIRC. So a high alt load with electric fans is gonna offset any gains by tossing the crank fan unless you don't run the alt/fan during a run.
You can also reduce the fan load by removing the blades so it only has a few.

It is all relative anyway. A crank driven fan should take less HP than any other method with the same fan efficiency. If you drive the fan with a belt, or other mechanism there will be power losses involved. If you drive an alternator to drive electric fans there will be several power losses. If you use a battery to drive the fans, you carry excess weight.

There are lots of pros and cons to consider, and I LOVE the KISS principle.

My setup is about as KISS as you can get. I run it with a tiny lawnmower 12 volt battery, no alternator and I've got a few blades missing from the fan.

Chris, have you bought Andrew Blyholder's car, or are you one of his "support crew"? Or is he simply the driver for your car?

The cooling setup I recall from that car is two mini squirrel-cage fans with ducting directly over the cylinder heads, and a muffin fan on the oil cooler. All electrically-driven off the battery. Which I think is a mini-battery. There is no alternator.

The car would probably burn itself up if someone tried to run it on the Big Track--the cooling does not look (to my very inexpert eye!) capable of cooling the car for the full session, and I think it wouldn't take too long to drain the battery and stop any pretense of cooling the engine has.

The car is an autoX specialist. It never sees the street or the track, just the cones. It's an amazing car with an amazing driver.


...The Type I can be built to high levels of power and reliability. Doing both at once takes cubic dollars, and is probably comparable to a Six conversion. You'd have to do quite a bit of fabrication to get everything to fit nicely, but it could be done. Most people see it as not worth the hassle, since you can build a medium-powered long-lasting Type IV for a lot less, and it bolts straight up.

--DD

It's something more at higher rpms, like 20hp or something like that. You can always loose a few blades on the fan to push the rpm the fan cavitates at, so you don't waste all those ponies pushing air nowhere. Unless you are carrying lots of batteries, you'll be using more horsepower generating the power to run the electric fans, with far worse performance than a modified stock fan would deliver.

Smooth move there DD, just blew their "trade secret"

As Charles suggests, power losses from the fan will scale with engine RPM.

Some advantages of an electric fan: you can vary the fan speed independent of the engine speed, which may be beneficial in some cases. The fan can be run from a light battery, eliminating the weight and power loss of driving either the alternator or the fan. Obviously only useful for short bursts, like drag racing or AX. It MIGHT work for short track sessions.

Remember that the stock crank-driven fan has to cope with some situations that heavily compromise its design. For example, if you run the engine hard and then stop and idle for a bit, the cooling fan has to be sized so that it can keep cooling the still-hot engine even though engine speed is at or near idle. It also has to do this on very hot days. This means the cooling fan is very likely pushing more air than necessary at higher revs. Decoupling engine speed and fan speed can, therefore, potentially pay benefits even if you're running an electric fan using an engine-driven alternator.

Also remember that air-cooled motorcycles don't generally have fans at all. It's very possible that clever ducting and the use of electric fans to supplement airflow at slow speeds could be enough to keep an engine cool.

On another tack entirely, using a belt-driven fan with a CVT arrangement to vary the gearing of the fan to the crank (which can be done cheaply and compactly: just look at any scooter drivetrain) could provide the variable fan speed benefit without suffering the efficiency losses of using an electric fan with an alternator.

As I recall,
When I posted about eliminating blades in my race car fan, the gain was 8-12 hp on the dyno (per Jake) but im old....so i may be wrong here...

So, I would have to agree that a significant HP increase could be had by eliminating the fan all together...

And, if we are talking a pure autoX car, no alternator is needed either...
I would use elec fans, small battery, and take the one minute or less run, then use a thermostat to kick in the fans...

If you run a car purely off the battery, bring a few chaged ones, and a big marine battery,,,,the big marine battery can be plugged into the car, right after the 1 minute run and use the big battery to run the fans...

Rich

hmmm, thin solar panels that conformed to the shape of the lids would be neat....kinda suck on a cloudy day or if you got stuck under a freeway overpass, but you could have a battery backup....

Hey, if they didn't want anyone to know about it, they wouldn't show it off at the autoXes!

Also, the devil is in the details. Notice I didn't actually mention anything about the sizing of any of it, nor any details about the ducting. Those would be where the real development time/$$ goes.

--DD

I like the squirrel cage fans....prototype Corviar motor with mechanical driven fans (3 here)


Click to view attachment

I doubt you'd get enough current from the panels to make them worthwhile. I'd guesstimate that the best you could do with panels on a 914 engine lid would be 250-300W. 5hp * 741W = 3.7kW, or better than 10x what the panels will give you. The battery itself will be drained at approx. the same rate when the starter is cranking to drive the necessary fans. I'd guess you'd get about 30 seconds of run time, at best. The solar panels might extend that to 31 or 32 seconds...

I much prefer the variably-geared engine-driven fan, myself. Use electricity to drive the clutch and the variator. Drive the fan at 500-5000rpm, depending entirely on actual engine temp.

Okay, since you all have revieled the Caramilk secret; I have my ready to hack at this cooling fan. Where are the pics you saducers? I said pics not pricks by cracky.


:sawzall:Me cut, me fix, me go vrooom to finish line victoriously alla 914 Forum.

Here is my fan with a blade on each side of the pully "posts" removed. I had one break off so I cut/filed/sanded the others off.

He's just the driver, however I'd still consider myself part of his "support crew". The magic wouldn't happen without him, he can drive the thing like no other.

The car is owned by my dad, Lee Hamilton, who is the true genius behind the operation ( the car part of the picture ). He builds probably some of the best engines around. Right now we have a pretty mild 2 liter engine he built that drove on the street for 14 years before we pulled it from my moms car when he restored her 914. The engine then sat in the backyard for a while, and when we decided to autocross, we saw it and decided to thow it in.

We actually have a much more powerful engine in the works ( the current one is probably around 100hp ), however we only got to run it for about one event and the dang plastic in the piston pin buttons was so old it melted. However, we're working on the larger engine, and should be out later this year with a little under double our current power, and this time the plastic won't have sat around for 10 years before going in the engine.

For the Type I engines topic, we actually had a much more powerful Type I engine in the car about 10 years ago which we wanted to time trial. However we were blocked by the Porsche club who said the Type-I was not a porsche engine, therefore not allowed.




Yes, probably TTOD at that event, not sure which one you're talking about, but June was our around 20th TTOD in a row.

How about posting some pictures of the car.

Paul

Sure, want pictures at the track, or in the garage?

Both of course.

Picsssss

Later

I recall taking pix of a 356 roadster at Riverside with no fan at all. Just a big honkin' piece of heater duct running from the right headlight bucket, through the passenger compartment, and into the fan shroud, the shroud had no hole for the generator, so all the air went over the cylinders. Not too effective when the car wasn't moving, but race cars move, so that appears to be a non-issue. I may have seen a 914 with a similar cooling system, but I'm not sure. The Cap'n

Quite a few 914s run the "sewer pipe" cooling system. I believe that the SCCA ones do keep the fan, but they remove many or most (or in a few cases, all but the four "supports"!) of the fan blades. This cuts drastically down on parasitic loss, and the "ram-air" cooling works well enough when the car is at speed.

--DD

I was thinking of using the "stove pipe" cooling system on my car but I don't think it works too well on an a/x car. Road race yes, they run for a longer period of time and at higher speed really moving the air through the pipe. Autox cars sit between runs and really need the air moving over the engine when sitting.

Paul

Sorry about the lack of pictures so far, it seems as though all four of my SmartMedia cards have gone bad sitting on the desk. Here are a few pictures other people took at the autocrosses though:





I'll try and take a few in the basement, either my camera or my card reader is messing up. Maybe I'll have to finally upgrade to a Canon or something.

Someone stole the windshield!

Actually, we had to remove the windshield at one point, and while we were working, it broke. So we figured, heck, it was just unneeded weight anyways.