Question for you guys. I am building an EP'ish 914, and have a low front hoop on my cage. I read the rules, and I do clear the main hoop horizontal height of 2" below the main hoop, but I barely clear the diagonal.

SCCA states you need to be 2" below, and also below a plane that is drawn from the main hoop to the front hoop. How do you guys fit!? I've seen some pics and it doesn't seem like anyone really clears that part of the rules.

I have my seat pretty low already, sooo.... any suggestions? or you can PM with your "cheater advice"

Lower the seat to the floor.

what Paul said... and then tilt it

I'm slammed to the floor already with a yucky aluminum seat and have it tilted as well. I wonder how strict the rules are. I do fit, but it's soooo close, I hope I don't get DQ'd or anything when tech'd.

how about adding a small extension to your main hoop?

Weld another section of bar on top of your hoop.

Is that legal? I'm curious about that one. I'm sure I will fit, but I really like my Sparco seat, and I feel better using that with a HANS than with an aluminum seat. That's the only reason why I would need more clearance.

Show me some pics. You are not much talled than me.

YOu probably need to remove the cross member where the seat normally sits.

Brad,

There's a new floor pan in there, so the crossmember is gone.

I don't have any pics here at work, so no help there. I have the seat mounted on a custom mount right to the floor, maybe less than 1cm high. I think I might be fine.

The main hoop is right at the height of the stock roll hoop, which I like since I don't like a tall main hoop as it's funky looking. (looks are important! )

I'll play around with the mounting this week to see what I can do.

If you're going to run SCCA, do not scab on a piece to make your main hoop higher, you will not pass tech, if the tech inspector knows the most recent cage developments.

I struggled with this a while ago. Here's what I had to do:

Main hoop is mounted over the weld flange on the targa bar, but against the top corner of the targa bar thing. That targa hoop is not flat, so the main hoop sits on the top corner only in the middle and gains a bit of clearance towards the edges.

I had to ditch the sweet FIA-type seat... broke my heart... and use a crappy aluminum seat (sounds like you already did that). 20 degree layback and I laid it back even more.

Then I had to adjust the height and location of my front hoop to get my helmet under the imaginary line between the two hoops.

The SCCA is serious about this rule. Eric Madsen got told to fix it before the next session during last year's runoffs.

I can take some pics if you're interested.

Kevin,

Thanks for the tip. I got my redneck aluminum seat to fit me in the car just fine, with some room to spare. Just gotta squish down a tiny bit, and I can still remove some butt padding. I just wanted to see what others did for some ideas.

Boo hoo, I had to get rid of my pretty Sparco Pro 2000 and Recaro SPG. Looks like one of those is going back in the 993, which is a good thing.

I would assume that SCCA would not allow the extra piece up top. I don't find it safe anyways, plus it will look like

A pic would be nice!

Yeah, I couldn't get the fancy seat to work... there's a corner under your a@# which raises the seat as you rotate it back. The alum redneck seat doesn't have that, so when you rotate the seat it doesn't get taller.

Tom Burdge (blue and yellow car) has a scab, but, he also has a high-front hoop cage.

Eric Madsen's car (black and white) is also pictured.

Kevin,

Thanks for the pics. My main hoop is about as high as Erik's. The front hoop is pretty high as well on my car. I will take some current pics today when I get home of the mounted seat, as well as other portions of the cage. I'm sure I'm fine, but looking for a few other ways to get lower, or legal.

Click to view attachment

Your front hoop looks to be close to the height of mine. The main hoop is lower for sure. It will be a challenge to get low enough... depending on your body height. I feel like I'm on the edge and my main hoop is at least 1.5" higher than yours.... like I said, I'm on top of that flange, but back a little further. I've got the main hoop welded to the flange and to the targa bar.

And I forgot to mention... that kirkey in the pic was my second seat. I ran that for a while after cutting the side supports. I switched to a Kirkey road racing seat, 20 degree layback and it's better, but still not as nice as a Momo or Sparco. So, it took me 3 seats to get an acceptable solution.

I'm 5'10" +/- 0.5". I'm right on the edge, I just checked last night again. I should actually check with my driver's suit on too.

Here are some pics







Rest of them

Terrance,

First let me say that I think the rule is stupid, but you're going to need another side bar.

From the GCR:

18.6.3 Side Protection - Open and Closed Automobiles
a. The minimum side protection shall consist of a horizontal side
tube connecting the front and rear hoops across both the door
openings. Additionally, there shall also be either a diagonal tube
from the front hoop to the rear hoop bisecting the door opening
below the horizontal side tube, or not less than two (2) horizontal
side tubes. Additional tubing may be added. NASCAR-style door
bars are recommended.

The problem is that you need a diagonal tube below the horizontal tube and your is not.

I forgot to mention... I had to adjust the height of my steering wheel to get it within that imaginary diagonal line between the main and front hoops.

WHAT? That's one confusing rule!

So, I guess the steering wheel needs to clear the imaginary line as well? Geeze... Well, atleast I may not use that wheel and be going with a smaller sports racer wheel instead.

Kevin,

I found another part in the rule.

18.6, top of page 113:

Open top automobiles without a windshield, and with a low front hoop design:

a. Low front hoops shall be cowl height, or at a minimum, a straight line drawn from the top of the main hoop to the top of the front hoop shall pass over the driver's hemlet

Ok, I have read this rule, and always thought that no matter what, you have to fit under this imaginary line. But, since my front hoop exceeds the cowl height, then I don't have to fit under the line, and just meet the 2" rule of the main hoop.

Am I reading this right? This might not be the place to ask this, I should be posting on the SCCA forums, but wanted to run this by you.


Oh yeah, and the door bars, it sounds right, and is a new rule. my cage was built to the 2005 rules, so I can have it added easily.

You can post to the prod car forum and get a reasonable discussion, but posting to the SCCA forum is usually a waste of time.

The side protection rule has been there for a number of years and it's weird because an IT legal cage with crossed door bars is not legal for production, unless you add the upper bar. I built my cage in 2004 and that wording was in the GCR at that time.

Regarding the imaginary line... I can see your point.... and it's valid, for sure. I think the point of that line is that if your car flips and your front end gets crushed your helmet will not be supporting the car. This may be a strained interpretation, but I think they want your head within either a line between the hoops or a line between the main hoop and cowl. Having said that, I would make sure your helmet is within that imaginary line because the picture shows it and I've seen people argue with tech inspectors about that before.

No need to get the steering wheel within that line, but you might want to lower it once you find your happy place.....

Hi Terrance,
I agree with Groot (he's usually right regarding SCCA) Your door bars are not legal as they sit. I had mine cut out and redone. I am running a three bar NASCAR style set up that goes out to the outer door cover. Much easier to get in and out of the car as well.
You might want to contact SCCA in Topeka. I've found them to be very helpful actually. They get bashed alot on the Prod. board but I've found them to respond quickly and accurately. If you go to the SCCA website there are email addresses for the individuals responsible for the division you run in.
You might also want to look at the blue number 5 in Kevin's pictures. There is alot of discussion going on about requiring that roll bar set up in open top cars in the very near future. (maybe as early as 2007 or 2008). Certainly, if I was building my car now I would consider that set up. I elected to leave my front windshiled in the car for that very reason. I occasionally run without the top and rear window but that is as close as I get to a car like your building.
Because of the gravel pits in the turns at a number of tracks there have been drivers trapped when the car went upside down and came to rest on the nose and the main hoop both of which have dug into the gravel. as a result they have raised the height requirements. Personally, I always want to be able to get out of the car as quickly as possible if I put it upside down. I've done it twice in other cars and it's never any fun. Helluva ride, but not fun.
One other minor issue for you ( I know, not minor if you have to relocate a bar) Hard to tell from your picture, but if your going to use the bar behind your seat for your harnesses and your going to wear a HANS it appears that bar may be to high. HANS recommends (Not SCCA) that the bar in that situation be 1 3/4 inches to 2 inches below your shoulder height.
Randy
Car 54 Here I Am; G production SCCA porsche 914.
Currently leading Cal Club G prod points and lap record holder at Buttonwillow Raceway Park for G production

Hey, Randy. You're right about contacting SCCA directly, they have been very helpful, but the SCCA discussion board seems to be a waste of time.

About Tom Burdge's car (number 5), are you talking about the high front hoop or the scab on the main hoop?

Thanks for the tips guys. I think I have it all worked out here.

Hi Kevin and Terrance,
I was talking about the high front hoop. There has been talk going on since I began with my car about having all production or non-open wheel cars go to the high front hoop. The issue of the gravel pits and other safety issues has come up from time to time.
As I understand it, nothing is carved in stone at this point but it is strongly under consdieration for implementaion in a year or two. There has been a great deal of grousing about it over on the production board with guys threatening to sell their cars and never race again etc., etc.
I elected to leave my windshield in place and just run without the targa top from time to time so it doesn't affect me but I can see where it would affect guys like you, Eric Madsen, Bob Kirby's old car and others. I really like the look of your car but can also see the reasoning behind the other argument. Either way, I'm not a player, just a spectator in this one. If I was building a new car now I would certainly discuss it with SCCA. I'd hate to have to modify the cage in the near future after just finishing the car.
Randy
Car 54 Here I Am
G production Porsche 914

I've been following the debate, but I'm pretty sure the debate has been focused on the main hoop and whether it extends all the way across or only 50% or on some cars, less than 50% the way across. Us open 914 guys have no reason to go less than all the way across due to the targa bar.

The new rules really don't affect the 914, because no one will build the 1/2 width cage. Terrence in seeing your photos, you will need to add a horizontal bar to the fore and aft sections of your door roll cage area. It looks pretty easy to do, just two tubes.

Frankly, my cage main hoop is a touch low. I had some major problems at the Runoffs, for two reasons, first, I was craning my head forward to see over the hood and pick up some reference points in my first practice session, got the black flag. Then, we lowered the seat, cut the windscreen and I was able to make it under the limbo stick.

Please contact me if you need any help in building your car. I am sure the same offer is open from Kevin. Are you building a 6 or a four?

Erik

I don't see how they could fairly require open Prod cars to run a full, high cage unless they also consider the SRF cars. What's unsafe for one is unsafe for the other, yes?

Erik,

Thanks for the tip! I know about those lame horizontals for the doors. , so I will get those done when the time comes around. I check my height all the time, so I'm pretty sure I'm good to go.

I'm building a -6, so it should be fun. I call it EP'ish, because it's probably not legal. I will probably run it mainly with my local Porsche racing group here. I'll stick to spec miata with SCCA.

Here are a couple of pics of my latest project. The main hoop is about as low as I would want to go. I think Erik Madsen's is even lower than mine. I carefully positioned the seat so I am below the line across the hoops with my helmet on. I hope I can see ahead of me ok.
The seat is a Kirkey upright that I have layed back quite a bit. Unfortunately it doesn't give good head support so I may modify the headrest at the same time as I am adding shoulder supports.

front view

and

Hey, Chris. Lookin' good!!!

Welcome to the open 914 club. My visibility is not very good, but you get used to it after a few races. Now, I don't even think about it. But, if I let someone drive my car they get a little freaked out about it.