I have a question for the board....

Is going off track an indicator of ongoing improvement? This is meant as a "positive" experience question.

I have heard some drivers use the old addage that there are two types of racers:

1. Those that have gone off track
2. Those that will go off track

The reason I ask is that I've never been dirt tracking at any of the places I've run (Laguna Seca, Infineon, Buttowwillow or Thunderhill). I haven't spun out or even touched a wheel in dirt (just wispies!)

I'm getting quicker and have set many personal bests this year. This past weekend my practice times put me in the top 20% of cars running, so that makes me happy. But is it possible I'm not pushing hard enough to learn my own limits and that of my car? Some drivers have told me that going off is no big deal. I personally don't like the thought of it a whole lot. From the standpoint of safety, I don't want to lose control and possibly hit someone else. From the standpoint of cost, I don't want to damage my car.

My approach has been incremental...bring a little more speed in a section and then link it to the next section. And I have been trying to be more aware of practicing controlled drifting of the car through certain sections of track. I just don't know if I should push my limits a tad more.

I suppose given our sport it is inevitable that I will go off, be it my own fault or circumstances happenning in front of me on the track.

Any thoughts or insights from the Paddock?

Thanks,

Bill P.

I've always felt at AX if you don't loop it once in a while, you're not trying hard enuff.
On a track, things are different. Here the speeds are much higher....no big thing if there is plenty of run-off space...but you need a lot of space at 80-100 mph.

I took the shitbox out to a DE once. I passed everyone in the novice group...big deal, what's next? Pass everyone in the intermediate group? After working at it for a while
I may have been able to get to most of em'....at risk of life & limb & car..not much of a plan, me thinks. Tho I can see a certain amount of satisfaction in that, the end game ain't worth it....that was it for me & DE.

I would agree with your approach, Bill.

Frankly, if you're buying and/or building your own race car, raising kids, paying a morgage...yada... more than simple self preservation enters the scene.... risk your money and your lifestyle for what? If oldfarts ever wanted to be really good they shoulda started 30-40 years ago...back when they couldn't afford wives/kids & race cars.

What'cha got to prove? The only thing I've ever proven to my self at AX is that I ain't 25 any more...or even 40 and if I ever had any natural talent it disappeared years ago.

and AMEN, brother JP.

JP, you're right.
I, however, do it the other way. I'm braver than I ought to be, and I take some real risks to beat other people, all for a little 1" X 3" brass plaque.
I go off plenty, I always have, but I was fast at the beginning, and I've only gotten faster. I'm not saying that's good, that's just how I am.
I'm always trying to get another minute portion of a second out of every corner, and sometimes I go too far. I'm only pushing myself, not other people, I'm courteous, but am I safe? Well, I'm safer than some other guys, and is the rolling pylon in front of us safer than the fearless moron that blows past at the first flick of a finger out the window?
Well, at least I'm aware.
As far as you, you should do what you're comfortable with. If anyone pushes themselves too much, they'll probably get freaked out and loose concentration, and become dangerous to others.

I always remember, at a couple of DE's, I've seen people who were soooo slow, I mean REALLY slow, and some guys were talking about it, and the consensus was, yes they're slow, but they're doing it. That incredibly slow person is very afraid, but they keep going out there and doing it again, in spite of their fear, and they are getting better. Maybe not at the rate of some hotshit kid with too much balls and no brains, but they're improving at a rate that they're comfortable with.
I'm not saying you're that slow at all, just giving an extreme example.
The most important part is to have fun and be safe. It's all really about fun.

I can relate to your conundrum. I listen to other racers talk about the tracks we run and try to compare it to what I feel. At Willowsprings there is a back straight between T7 and T8. T8 is a long sweeper. A lot of the fast guys say they don't lift turning into 8. My car has never felt stable enough at that point to keep my foot completely in it and I have to breathe the throttle before getting back on it. I keep second guessing myself and wonder if I shouldn't just glue my foot to the floor and give it a try. But I know my feelings are usually pretty good so I'm going to keep experimenting with different approach angles and not push it until it feels right. Incremental improvement is the smart road. I'd be proud to say I ran competitive times and had never spun. I wish it were true.

Bill,
I think you know how I feel but here goes....

In 16 years of TTing and DEs I have been off one time at BW at the bus stop. Thought I could make thru with out a lift....Doh! Guess not.
Only other time I was off was at turn 11 at Laguna when my brakes went away. Knew I couldn't get it slowed down enough to make the turn so I let the car scrub sideways a bit and then drove straight off.

I have always driven my cars to the track and always wanted to drive them home in the same condition.

That $5 trophy just wasn't worth the cost to car or my health.

I get around the track just fine for an old fart...so I have nothing to complain about.

yes, some folks push the envelope and go off....some more than others.

For me, slow incremental improvement while keeping the "farming" to an absolute minimum is the way I have always approached driving and instructing/coaching.

I would have two differnt takes on this:

At an autox: (And if you haven't gone, then do so.) If you're not spinning it occasionally, you're not pushing hard enough. Autox is a great venue to get a feel for what the car will do when it gets away. And you can do this in a pretty safe environment. Even if your main drive is the big track, you will gain skills at an autox that you just can't explore at the big track.

At the track: The speeds, and kinetic energy are much higher. Runoff room becomes very important. I think your incremental approach is a good one. You're not competing for prize money, you're just driving for fun and experience. If you racing professionally, that would be different, but you're not. Why risk bringing home your car on a flatbed (or worse) for that extra tenth? Speed will come with practice. Your laptimes are still dropping right? You haven't reached a plataeu yet, so why push beyond the envelope?

There are, of course, times, and opportunities to push it here and there. But plan then, decide how you want to do it, and do it. If it doesn't work, you'll have knowledge and experience. If it does, yeehaw. If you are by yourself on the track, and there's GOBS of runoff room, and you feel COMFORTABLE pushing it, then try it. But most of all, if you're not comfortable, don't do it!!

Again, this is DE, you're not even competing for a plastic plaque. Drive within your comfort level (not below it though, just stay right near the edge), and you'll find your laptimes will drop, and your comfort level will go up...

-Josh2

Probably the youngest of the "old guys" here and only did one lapping day. By the end of the day I was brave enough to go through turn one flat out 115 MPH got it on video not a hint of of engine pitch.
My lack of skill only allowed me to do it once cuz the next time through I wasn't in the right place on course to make it. So I straight lined right through to turn 2 and 3.
I eased on back a bit gathered my senses and decided to park it for a while. 40 hot laps for the day was enough seat time.

Autocross I hang it out pretty good and usually get some sorta sideways trying to squeeze out more corner speed.
Cones don't hurt nothing but your pride. going off on a road course at tripple digits? well that can get hell a expensive. I put nearly 1000 dollars out of my pocket for one track day. fees, gas, new brakes afterward, 1/2 of a new set of DOT Hoosiers, rear wheel bearing, fluids.

I like Autocross Sorry for the ramble. or is it Drivel?

I have had four "offs".

T10 at Laguna in the rain. Did 270° spin in the rain and put the rear wheels just off the asphalt without touching the gravel. Drove across the track and into the pit lane for a chat.

T10 at TH CCW. Again wet. Track conditions had changed from the previous lap and what worked then didn't this time. Took the left hander and the rear came around 180° and I went off on the inside backwards and went about 40 feet up the embankment, packing loads of mud and grass into everything. Black flagged.
The ruts are still very visible.

T5 CCW "over the top" at TH. Came at it too hot. Couldn't make the left. Drove straight off and rejoined the track at the bottom of the hill.
This was the last lap of the last session and spaced the braking zone.

T11 CW at TH. It's a 2nd gear sacrificial turn. I tried it in third. 180°.
I let the car go four wheels off backwards instead of sitting in the middle of the track where cars couldn't see me. Yellow flag was flying, but not everyone sees them.

I am trying my best. Sears is a "no off" track as far as I'm concerned.
TH is pretty safe.
Laguna is trouble.

Hank Watts said: " Laguna eats cars, Sears eats people."

All these offs were slow speed and the car took no damage. Air dam didn't even come off.

Never more than one off in any given day.
This is after 12-15 track days.


I work up to turns. I don't take huge risks. I want to have fun and stay in one piece.


KT

Thanks for the comments guys!

I appreciate you sharing your experiences and your thoughts on the subject. I doubt I will change my approach to how I'm learing to go faster as we are what we are. I'm methodical in my approach with upgrading my driving skills and I will continue to be. One thing I need to do is get more instruction.

One thing about my track car setup is that my air dam up front is tied into the frame and is part of an integral system with the front hood. If I crack the airdam enough so that it can't stay on the car, the car's hood cannot be latch closed. Going off track would most likely end my day.

Let's hope I haven't jinxed myself with this thread!

Bill P.

I've seen examples of two kinds of people: those who approach the limits from "below", and those who approach them from "above". The former inch up to the limit, staying pretty much in control all the time. The latter are wild, sliding all over, then calm down to reach the edge.

IMHO, both are appropriate strategies at an AX, where only the former is appropriate for a track event unless you're being paid big money to drive someone else's car.

At an AX, I tend to do both. I'll take the first run fairly gently so I really know which way the course goes (a walk can only do so much). The next run I'll deliberately overdrive everywhere so I can find any "hidden" fast spots that look slow but actually aren't. The next run (or runs) will just be refinements.

At an indoor karting event (very low risk), I'll also tend to overdrive too much.

At a track event, I'm a pansy, and I'll slowly feel my way to fast times as gently as possible.

Bottom line: Not going off is better than going off. Some people just learn in different ways. The system you have is a good one. Keep it up. I guess I am a bit more reckless in my approach.

I started my carreer with an off track excursion on the 3rd turn of my very first D.E. Now days I do it about once every 3 or 4 weekends, ususally because I tried to much of something that didn't work, or sometimes from lack of concentration and being sloppy late in the day.

Early in my 1st session of the day I use one of my laps as an inspection of run-off areas, even if it is a track I have been on before (sometimes things change). Know which corners have a cushion and which ones to fear.

If you do go off, you better know why it happened and learn something from it.

"If you do go off, you better know why it happened and learn something from it."
It's that old risk and reward thing.
Sounds like you're taking a safe approach and setting new personal bests in the process. How do you compare with similar cars in your run group?
Find a instructor and ask him to ride with you, if he's got a 914 that's even better. Even Tiger Wood's has a coach.
Work on being smooth by not upsetting the balance of the car. Try braking a "little" earlier with less brake pressure and work on corner entry and getting on the power as quickly as possible, you want to be on the power no later than halfway between turn in and apex, work on getting on the power right after turn in.
You're driving a over powered mid engined 35 yr old car that will spin in a heart beat.
I'd say forget trail braking on anything other than the absolute slowest turns. 914's don't need any help turning.
Try and feel thru the seat of your pants how the car feels going thru a turn. Try the same turn a little earlier and then a little later and see how it feels. Find a point at track out and check rpm's trying it different ways.
Don't think you learn alot by going off track but it will happen ocassionally. If you're going to push it do it in a safe place.

Damn....haven't heard from Don for a long while.
Don't be such a stranger. Good to hear you're still verticle.

Don,
Great advice ! I read and re-read your post. It is spot on...will share it with my sons who are scaling the 914 learning curve one turn at a time (and spinning out periodically). Maybe we need a section here in the Paddock on driving tips. We all can benefit from advice like this...reallly good stuff. Thanks Don.
Greg Welch

Off track excursions, Are they a measure of improvement?



....nope

Hi JP, yeah, I'm still upright. I see you're still flogging that 914 59 seconds at a time.
I check in here maybe once a week. Just got tired of the pissin' and moaning from the PC crowd complaining about risque pictures or foul language. The club became too PC for me.

I think driving within your comfort zone is important. But driving beyond it on occasion is how you improve. I'm not a fan of four-wheel offs but sometimes it just happens. My first track day after switching from my 911 to my 914, I had three 360 degree spins, all led to four wheel offs. I was discovering just how much easier it was to get a 914 spinning and how much harder it is to save than a 911. Nothing I'm proud of but none of the spins were that big a deal.

If you've never had a spin or an off, odds are you're not pushing the car as hard as it can be pushed. And that might not be your goal which is fine. But to get to that perfect place where you're running your car at 100% of your tires adhesion 100% of the time, you will on occasion make a mistake, go to 101% or more, and off you go. That's just racing. If you're content running at less than 100%, that's cool too.

But 99.9% of the guys and gals at the top of the time sheet in any racing club picking up those $3 plaques with big smiles on their faces? Those folks have gone off. And as they watched the dirt cloud settle and the corner worker wave them back onto the track, have learned and improved from the experience. I know I did.

Have fun. Be safe. Kick butt.

Sandy,
I have not driven a 911 on track but I would like to get Bill P's take on whether a 914 is harder to save than a 911. I felt the 914 was more predictable given the better wt distribution. You have got me wondering now....let the tail-draggers chime in on this
gw

I have been off three times this year after 14 track days covering 4 different tracks.

I had gone several years without an off. I was in a "new to me car" (the Boxster Spec car) and a lightweight 993. My first off was at turn 2 at Willow in Jan. I was experimenting (plain and simple) The Boxster has a digital dash showing MPH so I was doing what Don was telling people in a post above (checking speed) I changed my entry speed.. my exit speed.. inside.. outside... middle.. I wanted to be able to put the car in any spot on the track in that corner. This is important in a racing situation. This was a new track for me and didnt know where this new car was going to stick at speed. I wouldnt have found out pussy footing around the track on a "Time Trial" line. I had been to this track multiple times with paid professional drivers and listended to them coach other people, but had never driven it. By my third session on the very first day there.. I had the class record and was leading my class. I wouldnt have found the limit for turn 2 if I didnt try.

Later on this year I went 4 wheels off in a 180degree spin exiting turn 9 at Willow. I ended up going backwards at 125+. The ABS in a Boxster doesnt work going backwards...LOL This one scared me. I ended up within arms reach of the wall.

I dont like to spin. But I think it is something you will do if you are pushing the envelope. I ran Buttonwillow for a few laps in a prepared 993 a few weeks back. I took it off after a tank slapper coming out of turn 6. The owner was pissed. He wasnt pissed that I went off.. he was pissed because in one session in a car I had never driven.. I beat him by a full second (and he has been running the car since 1999)

Just be smart Bill. Be consistant. Be safe. Be predictable.

I have raced door to door. It is completely different than "open track days" and Time Trial. You'll learn there are 100's of different lines on 100's of different tracks. This is when you will have to experiment. Right now I believe you are in a comfort zone.

B

Not trying to start a war, just adding a differnt perspective....
A well set up 914 with a "almost" stock engine and 205's is fun to drive.
What makes a 914 so much fun is the mid engine, allowing low polar movement. It can be a stretch to get to the limit. Problem is when you go over the limit it will spin in a heart beat and can be very, very difficult to catch. Now add in 2 or 3 times the original power...heavy suspension...bigger tires...car can handle like it's on rails...until you go over the limit.
You have to become very familar with your car as you have to anticipate the back end coming around. A little counter steer, maybe a very slight breathing of the throttle, you MAY have a chance to catch it.

You're absolutely right, Don. The more seat time I get in my 914/3.2, the more I learn. Plus, I've got a secret weapon -- OTTO! He helps my car go fast in his shop and helps me go fast at the track.

Say hi to John. He was my best instructor ever. He would like my new 914-6

Hi Don,

I was talking with Rich Bontempi of HPH and he said the exact same thing as you, when you get the 914 to the limit, it likes to spin like a top, and Rich says that while the 911's have the rap for snap oversteer, he thinks the 914's are much harder to catch and correct.

Greg,

I would have to say that driving the 911 I have now versus the 914-6 I had is "easier" to drive at speed. I have been looking at my in car videos of the same tracks driiving the 914 and then the 911, and I am not as busy in the car. The 914-6 was 237HP at the crank on 2000lbs. The 911 is 300 HP at the crank with 2400lbs. But at speed, the 911 is much more stable, both aerodynamically and in turns, not as twitchy. I love the 914's handling through turns and the esses, but I'm just as fast through most of that stuff with my 911 and much faster in the straights and under hard braking.

B,

I agree with you that I'm in a comfort zone on most of my lines. But even in Time Trials, I'm actually running racing lines in several spots. I usually download the PRC Toyo Cup race videos and watch them and compare against my Time Trial lines. I have actually changed some lines and found them to be just as fast and they give me another way through a turn for example.

I am experimenting for my next step to door to door. I plan on the door to door stuff in 2007. I just have to start the licensing process.

Thanks,

Bill P.

The clearest message I've ever got from a professional driver is:
"Going fast is never comfortable. You'll be working when the car is at the limit."

I'm finding this true from my in-car video. On record pace laps I'm not just sitting there holding the wheel going around a corner, I'm catching, correcting, countering, grooving, ... It's completely satisifying to me to run at that high personal level and I learn more about the car during those times.

All that said, I've never learned anything from a spin or off. Overcooked is overcooked.

Later,
Kevin

I learned this when I was 17 years old. Driving my dad's 71 914 on skinny 165 Michelins around a damp sweeper in the Santa Cruz mountains back in the 70's. Flew into the corner lifted and the car was spinning before I knew it. I managed to keep it on the road and have never told my dad to this date! Oh yeah my 12 year old sister was in te car with me and used that incident to bribe me until I moved out of the house!

I'll be at Sears in a couple of weeks and I think the only places I'd pick to go off would be 4-7. Everywhere else is trouble. Especially 10.

So far no close calls there.
A little late braking into the carousel once.


KT

At the 7/21 event at Sears I came into 4 WAY too hot and went straight off.

Ran the turn in the dirt one car width around and came back on after the exit berm.

No problems. Didn't even pop a dzus on the Sweeper Dam™.


KT

"measure of improvement"?

I'd say if you can push to edge in a "safe" portion of the track, yes.
Searching for a deeper braking zone or faster speeds in an area where mistakes are forgiven is a "yes".

Pushing it in turns 10,11 or 1 at Sears would not be smart.


KT

Measuring improvement my counting off-track excursions is a pretty crude measuring device. Some people claim they're searching for the limit and sometimes that means going over it. While I understand and agree with what they're saying, it doesn't mean you have to go off the track. I'm a bit more cautious than that.

The best way I've found for measuring improvement and/or comparing your driving to other is data acquisition. Highly recommended........

Now that I have my fuel cell in, data acquisition and in car camera setup is my next upgrade.
I don't worry about spinning as long as I know why it happened. I feel I do learn something in those situations. I had a big off in T9 at Laguna Seca the last time I was there and I'm still not sure why. That will weigh heavily in the back of my mind when we go there in three weeks.

I like your approach - go faster, little by little. That's how I do it. Eventually you will get to the limit at a particular point on the track. Then work on another corner and keep doing that until you've reached the limit everywhere on the track. Then you'll be fast. Usually when you go off, you blow right by the limit and you won't be learning what the limit feels like. That's not to say you'll never go off when you try to approach the limits slowly, but you'll have less offs. Sometimes going off slows you down for a while. It's hard to get back up to where you were.

The key is recognizing the limit. Once you're at the limit in one corner or part of a corner, don't keep trying to go faster there, work on another corner.

Rick