Teenrs,

I'm looking for any 912 owners on the list for some buying advice. Lately, I've been cruising the market looking at cars on-line and would like to 'chat' with anyone on this list who has both a 914 and 912. I'm interested in your driving impressions and overall ownership experience as it compares to a 914. I've had a 914 for over 12 years, but have never driven a 912. It seems like every one I find is in CA, but I'm in Ohio!

I've also flirted with the idea of an early 911, but it seems I'm always drawn towards the non-conformist cars - like the 914.... something about the early 912s with the looks and light-weight handling appeal to me. But, that's only what I have read.

Anyone out there willing to help me out or point me in the right direction? I've been out surfing the 912Registery website also.

Thanks much,

Dion

I had a nice '67 912 until a few months ago. I had it for about two years.

First, most of the 912s still in existence are in California. There's a board for 912s, www.912bbs.org. They have a member's map just like us (I started it): www.frappr.com/912bbs, and you'll see the distribution of 912s is rather skewed to the left. There are a fair number in New England, as well.

Much like 914s, rust is the big killer on 912s. The troublesome areas are exactly the same as the early 911s: under the battery (left side of trunk, forward), which destroys the front suspension mount if left unattended, around the gas tank (same problem), the longs, the rear torsion bar tube, and just under the front and rear windscreens. The package shelf under the rear window can also suffer. The floors can often be rust damaged (even here in CA), but this is a relatively easy fix. The front trunk is also not hard to fix, as parts are available to weld in. The areas around the windows require a lot of custom reconstruction, so it's expensive. The longs and torsion bar tube are serious structural problems, and require a pro to realign everything as it's being repaired.

The engines are stupid expensive to rebuild, now approaching 911 engine prices. Cases are getting rare, and they do wear out. The 356 guys like the 912 cases, so they're disappearing fast. The 90hp is actually fairly adequate to push the car around. Getting more is asking for a huge bill, so most people to a Type IV or some other kind of swap if they want more poke.

As far as handling goes, I found it to be decent, but nothing all that special. The 914 was WAY better. One issue is that the '65-'68 911/912 uses a totally different ball joint/A-arm than the later cars, which wears out fairly quickly, and now costs about $300 in parts alone to replace. The '69 (first year of the long wheelbase) was heavily redesigned (LWB, totally different interior, different front suspension) doesn't have this problem.

Prices on these cars are rising, but there are still some bargains out there. I bought mine for $4K, and ended up selling it for $6K after doing about $500 of work on the car (which would have cost about $4K to have a shop do). It had very nice paint, was generally in nice shape, but had very little history. A lot of the owners are convinced the cars are worth a lot more than they are, and asking prices are often way over $10-12K for an average car. Actually finding a buyer at those prices is challenging, however. It took me nearly a year to sell mine. Show winning cars seem to sell for nearly $20K, but such sales are fairly rare.

I was intending to have a nice-looking comfy tourer to compliment the hard-edged sports car my 914 is continuing to evolve into. The car looked great, but it wasn't all that comfy. The suspension was pretty harsh without actually providing any extra "crispness" to the handling (may have been that car), the seats were awful (not just that car, alas). It was fairly noisy. Disappointing gas mileage (low 20s). It would have been a serious project to turn the car into the comfy tourer I wanted, and I just didn't have the energy to take on two major car projects at the same time.

If you're really seriously in the market for one, buying one here in California and having it shipped to you will be far, far easier and cheaper than trying to find an equally clean car in the Midwest. Shipping is only $1K or so, and you'll easily spend several times that fixing the rust on most Midwestern cars. The SFBay Craigslist usually has several 912s for sale at any given time.

Great feedback already! I appreciate the info, and you are right, if I get real serious I'll probably be importing from CA. After all, that's where 2 out of 3 of my 914's have come from as well. But I've got to find a half way decent one in the Midwest to drive first!

Dion

I have a '67 912 too. I drove it daily for about a year, then I decided to do paint and rust repair. They're really fun to drive. You get a bunch of looks, and its a really comfortable car. The driving position is 10x better then a 914 (for a circuis freak like myself - 6'4" 195 lbs). I dropped '74 911 seats and it got even better... Unfortunately I have to sell mine (this is NOT an ad), but I really doubt it will be the last 912 I ever own.

I happen to know where a REALLY NICE 68 912 is. I looked it over and didn't find any rust. Very clean running car. But, it's in CA.

My girlfriend has a 69 912 and it drives well. I like the 914 better, but the 912 sure is a looker!

Had a 69 targa for 2 years. Very nice handling, fun to drive car but no power. Had to wind the piss out of it and the solex carbs were a royal pain. Would be a neat car with a 914 2.0 in it.

I'd shoot for a 69 912. First year of the long wheelbase, but it's still the light body (not like the 912E).

Store the original 356 motor from it and swap in a mild 2056 and you'll be cruising in no time.

Tom

Talk to Jake Raby about conversion parts. Genuine 912E parts are hard to come by these days, as are 411/412 parts. I don't know who is making exhausts, but perhaps Bug stuff will work (lots of Type IV bug conversions). You may have to fabricate your own mount, however.

One issue with the Type IV swap is gearing. The 912 'box has very short gearing (4000rpm at 70mph), so if you like to cruise at high speeds, you'll need a taller 5th gear (easy to get, a 914 ZD 5th will drop right in), or you'll end up overspeeding the stock fan. OR, you can go with a DTM fan, which doesn't care. This latter will also make the engine bay look more like a correct 912 bay, if that matters at all.

The local SouthernCal 912 group comes to Seal Beach 1st Sunday each month and I've got to know a little about these--not an expert by any means:
I agree the 1969 is one of the more desirable models.
There is a fair turnover of very nice cars
The members are friendly, albeit more likely to prefer wine and cheese than the 914ers, and will point you in the right direction if you take the time to know a few.

Again guys, thanks for the feedback and help. This is very useful information as I try to make up my mind on which direction to go.

One of my primary reasons for doing this is (believe it or not) the need for those 2 extra seats. I'd like to include the family in my car activities and prevent the need to drive 2 cars whenever we take the Porsche somewhere. I really like the body style of the early 911/912, but trying to be practical about this decision, the early 911's are going up faster than the space shuttle trying to break orbit. Even if I were to go the 911 route, it would probably be a T which at the end of the day doesn't have a lot more HP or torque than the 912's. Anyone know power to weight differences between the two? Plus, for the price of an early 911 that needs to be restored, you can still get a very nice 912 from what I can tell. I've also figured that I need to look at the 68 or 69 models due to the rear seatbelt provision, although it may not be hard to retro-fit belts into an earlier model.

Anymore, I'm more fascinated in the 'old car' aspect of the hobby than the high-performance gotta-make-it-faster version of myself 5-10 years ago. I guess spending 3 years racing a formula car has satisfied my 'fast'. My first car as a 16 year old (in 1983) was a lowered, customized 1952 Ford with a straight six. That thing couldn't get out of its own way, but it was way cooler than any Mustang, Camaro, etc. that all of my friends had. I guess I'm coming full circle - the older I get, the slower I'm getting.

Again, thanks for the help.

Dion

Unless you've got little kids or a family of midgets, I wouldn't overestimate the comfort level of the "back seat" in a 911/912. I had to sit in mine the other day while wiping the rear windshield and IT SUCKED. And I'm not a big guy (5'9"). Even my wife won't sit back there for very long.

Having said that, you should first decide which model you like best SWB (65 - 68) versus LWB (69 only), although I'd suggest getting the best available of either model rather than nitpicking over the extra two inches.

I think you can fit seat belts (front and rear) into any of the early models (I know they have them for sure starting in 68).

You've got it right on 911 and 912 prices - IF you can find an early 911 in good shape, be prepared to pay $$$. I've seen very well-sorted 912s, exact same body style of course, go for far less. I'd be surprised if you had to pay more than $8,000 or $9,000 for something unless it is exceptional condition. Just search the west coast craigslist sites (Seattle, PDX, SF Bay, and LA).

Mike (in Portland)

Hey, who you calling a midget? I prefer the term, vertically challenged. OK, so my Wife is 5'4", I'm 5'7" on a good day, and I have a 4 year old and a 1 year old and neither of them will ever be on a basketball team. And I'm pretty sure I can get both car seats in the back!

But your right, SWB or LWB, I'll settle on the best car for the money.

Dion

The rear seats are REALLY tiny. I'd wonder if car seats fit back there. The '65-'67 912s didn't even come with FRONT seat belts, so there's no provision for fitting them in back. I can't speak for the '68/'69 cars. I'm only 5'7", and I could barely fit in the back seat (serious head and legroom problems). A 5'4" friend of mine fit, but wouldn't tolerate the seat for more than an hour.

The '72-'73 911T has a LOT more torque than any 912. We're talking the difference between a 1.6 and a 2.4 here. The 911 is heavier, but not by enough to kill the torque difference.

I'd expect a 944 to be better suited to being used as a two parents/two kids car.

One other thing about your search - I wouldn't think twice about any car with the later seats from a 944 or 911 (or certain aftermarket seats), as this squeezes the rear leg room and breathing room too much, probably even for little kids. Unless they have the original seats, of course.

I just added Scheel buckets and you need toothpick legs or no circulation if you want to ride in the back.

Mike (in Portland)

I guess I'll add my 2 cents worth. I have had my 69 912 for about 10 years, and I love it. The back room is not much, but I have had my girl friend's two kids in the back. It's fun to drive, different than the 914 ,but still fun!

I guess I was thinking along the lines of the early 2.0 T cars (110 hp, 116 ft lbs). Sure the 72-73 911's have better power/torque, but the prices for those are stupid any more. Crappy frankenmonster cars are going for $12K plus on Evilbay lately, and that's for a car that needs to be started over....no thanks. However, if you know of any in the right price range, send me a PM.

I had a 944S for a couple of years, so I guess it's been there done that. I liked the car, but not enough to buy another one. Besides, I keep going back to the old car thing; the oldest 944 is still a new car for this purpose.

By the way, this is the feedback I was hoping for. keep it up follks!

Dion

I'd agree with you that a 912 is a nice compliment to a 914. Both can be worked on in your garage if you're into that sort of thing. They both leak oil in almost the same places on the driveway as well.

Just do it already! You'll only regret it once.

The only way you can decide if you can live with a car is to own it. That's why I've had so many. I was still reconsidering selling my 912 while I was negotiating the final sales price. It went to a real 912 guy, so I don't feel bad, and I've ended up not missing it.

I've owned a number of 912s, and worked on many more. I've welded so many nose /suspension trays in 'em I've lost count. We built them up out of little pieces before the panels became available. 911s aren't as prone to that, probably because they're lees prone to overcharging. I've noticed over the past few years that early cars w/o floorpan rust are becoming really hard to come by. THey just get thinner and thinner until they begin to get holes in 'em. They also rust around the rear window and the lower corners of the windshield. Like 914 hell holes, the rust goes clear down through several layers of structural material. My '65 is sitting until I can get that fixed. It's a CA original car, I'm the 3rd owner, and it's been in LA and Santa Ynez its whole life. Both are what you'd call dry areas.

As for the power thing, my 130HP Solex cammed 911 will TEAR UP a 912. The extra weight in the rear is compensated for by weights in the front bumper, and it handles well enough There is, I've learned (as have others) a particular "touch" to driving a SWB 911/912 at speed, but it can be done. Rich Hertzog made mine flat move his first time in one, and I've approached TTOD once I got a handle on it.

I concur on the back seats. I doubt you'll be able to install any kind of real child seat back there, and leg room is limited. The mounting holes for rear belts are there, I think.

The Cap'n