Although I'm listed as a newbie I am not new to 914's.I have 5.I currently am working on a 1971 .My 5 lug conversion is half complete[front] and sway bar installed.I have decided to go with a V8 instead of a porsche 6 cyl.It appears less expensive to build a V8 car.Has anyone dealt with Reddawg racing on a V8 conversion.

I have not dealt with them personally, but I know I never will.

I dealt with 3-4 customers of theirs after the royal f-ing they received.

Stay away. Stick with a name that we know: Renegade or the guy's from AZ.

I support Renegade because of their continued support of the 914 as a conversion platform. I have no reason to doubt the people in AZ know what they are doing.


B

steer clear of reddawg. Renegade seems to be the best option for a bolt-in setup that consistently works. A link in case you aren't familiar with them - they are in Vegas.

http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

I have done business with Renegade (Scott) and have only good things to say about there commitment to customer satisfaction.

Me too what he said.

Don't do Renegade unless you have a lot of time on your hands. You'll get Scott on the phone and he won't stop talking!

Seriously, 914s and V8s really seem to be the passion of the guys over at Renegade. Really into the cars and very willing to help people out.

V8 instead of porsche flat 6 = big mistake, IMO.
I've owned and driven a V8 914, and I much prefer the flat six.
Others will disagree.

I'm not sure if this is going to be OT... but you might also want to consider the Subaru conversion. Renegade has a kit for it... and you might find it meets and/or exceeds your expectations.

Who built your 8, and what were the specs on it?

Please elaborate.

Here's the thing.

I've owned lots of 914s and 911s, almost continually for 24 years, and I've liked them all.

But as far as the driving experience, I like my current 914-8 the best out of any of them.

But - I've seen and driven many 914-8s over the years, and wouldn't want to own the vast majority of them.

That's because there's a huge difference between a pro built, well thought out, well engineered 8 and a home hack job, drop in an 8 and go car.

Doing an 8 right, IMO, is NOT a trivial exercise. The car may not look highly modified on the outside, but to do it right, there's a ton of time, money, sound engineering and craftsmanship that has to go in it. IMO, to have a really nice driving and fun 8, you have to, at a minimum:

- Have an 8 that is built to the characteristics of a lightweight sportscar.
- Have a transmission built to take it and work for a long time (IMO a 915 or 930).
- Have that transmission regeared to work correctly with the V8.
- Have the chassis stiffened.
- Have the entire braking system upgraded.
- Have a well engineered cooling system so that it doesn't look like a hack job and the car runs cool under all conditions.
- Work out something with the body so that appropriate sized wheels and tires can be fitted.
- Fit a suspension system that makes sense and works with the car.

Then you have to execute all of the above so it doesn't look like a total hack job and is pleasant to look at and work on.

When you do that, you have a car that is really a lot of fun to own and to drive.

The thing is, it likely wouldn't cost a whole lot less than a decent 6 conversion.

914s are fun because they tend to be "tinkerer's cars," owned by people who like to work on and modify their cars. 914 V8s are doubly so. From what I can see, most V8 conversions are done by tinkerers. Nothing wrong with that at all - people are having fun and that's what this is all about. But the result is a backyard creation that I would rarely want to own, personally.

I guess what I'm saying is it's hard to lump all V8 914s together, there is a huge difference between various examples. Turn your car over to Renegade along with a check for $50K, wait a while ,and you'll get back an awesome car that will be a blast to drive.

Take a stock 914, hack in a Camaro radiator and some fans, drop in a truck 350 and hit the road, and you'll have a rolling nightmare that won't be much fun to drive.

I'd guess that 90% of V8 914s on the road fall in between those two extremes, with more landing towards the latter. How much fun the car is to drive and own is more a function of where it falls on the spectrum, moreso than the number of cylinders it has.

I dont know the guy above my post, but he shares my same view on what we see in most conversion cars.

I dont own one because I cant afford one. This means, I cannot do it right with my current funds. I have NO interest in "hacking" one together (something I could do in a weekend)



B

Brad has no interest in my car




jk

914-8 has the beautiful black 914 gt look (with a v8 obviously)
And is my opinion of the best street 914 v8.

There are lots of guys with really nice race 914's...

Mine is a mix... A teenager on a budjet looking for fun on the way.

And.. I agree with 914-8..

One thing... THe type of v8 really makes the car.. Putting in a camshaft that doesnt kick in fully till 3k really helps give the car a drivable characteristic... Tq is fun, to a point.. But who wants to roast the tires at every corner, when you can pull out of a corner with the tq, and scream past anyone with the hp?


To answer your question.. Rennegade is the way to do it right. but if your mix and match you can get it cheaper.
Reddawg is so crappy... I dont think they are in buisness anymore.. their flagship car (yellow one) was sent to rennegade to "fix"... there was more problems with the car than I want to mention.. I would never drive it for fear of killing myself.


Can you weld? Can you solder? Can you cut? Can you fabricate?

You can do it for less than 3k. I'd budget 6k for a nice one.
I did mine for 1.5k... I've put 3k into the car since then. and plan on 3k for another engine...

Andrew,

you know better than anyone I support all the young adults into our cars no matter what it looks like or drives like. Not everyone can afford the big money cars. I have pushed and pushed for decent conversion cars. The 914 already has a black eye with people on the street. Why add another piece of shit to the puzzle? The only way to change the perception is too build and display nice cars. People dont throw out the POS comments when they see a 16-20 Y.O. kid built the car. Not 30+ y.o adults.


B

We'll making more money now.. the car is turning from a POS to a nice POS track car... Its got some big money parts on it now...

Which was my idea... I might have to replace some stuff, or do things over again once, or twice... or thrice..

But I was able to drive it and enjoy it...

Andrew

or you can just hack the living shit out of it
Click to view attachment



honestly, whether you do a six or eight, there are hacked cars and nice cars and that is up to the builder. Someone capable of a nice 6 is equally capable of a nice 8, and the same for a hacker - hack one you'll hack the other. Any good conversion requires skill on the converter's part.

What I like about the 8 is this - 300HP is so easy to make and so little stress on a SBC v. a 6cyl. And WAAAAYYYY cheaper (crate motors are better than that). So, they last longer and are more "driveable". If you want a brute amount of power (anything past 350HP) you can pretty much forget about any 6cyl unless you step up to turbo(s) and/or at least 3.8L - which I suspect would require quite a bit of skill and cutting to fit and way more money.

And a 300HP 914 is a fast car by most people's standards. At 525HP I hit over 60mph in 1st in under 4 seconds - I can't grab 2nd fast enough launching it at the track entrance. Far too much power to be driveable, but fun as hell at the track.

just to be a dick.....


Why would you want to do a flat 6 or v8 over a wrx/sti conversion? Seems to me to be the best option for a 914. Light weight, relieable, powerful and cheap. Where is the downside?

True, but I think a 6 is a bit easier (and thus a bit more hack proof), because it's an engine the car was originally designed to accomodate. So it is more plug and play with a lot less "issues" than putting in a water-cooled V8 that the car was never designed to accomodate.

So V8 conversions seem to me to more often exhibit backyard engineering hijinks than porsche 6 conversions do. There's just a lot more areas for the tinkerer to exhibit his fabrication and engineering "skeeelz" and ingenuity!

A V8 conversion, for example, provides an infinite number of opportunities for the creative use of PVC piping, NPT brass plumbing fittings, torches, homemade bracketry and engine and transmission mountings, expandable foam, JB Weld, etc. etc. etc. that the flat 6 conversion guy is deprived of.

"There's no replacement for displacement!"

I would suggest riding in a few conversions...let the seat of your ass be the judge....

yeah a guy in a cobra R said that to me once. Didn't like losing to a 1.6 liter.

Granted though torque is kinda nice if you don't feel like shifting.

[quote name='914-8' date='Jul 17 2006, 02:43 PM' post='730446']
Here's the thing.

I've owned lots of 914s and 911s, almost continually for 24 years, and I've liked them all.

But as far as the driving experience, I like my current 914-8 the best out of any of them.

But - I've seen and driven many 914-8s over the years, and wouldn't want to own the vast majority of them.

That's because there's a huge difference between a pro built, well thought out, well engineered 8 and a home hack job, drop in an 8 and go car.

Doing an 8 right, IMO, is NOT a trivial exercise. The car may not look highly modified on the outside, but to do it right, there's a ton of time, money, sound engineering and craftsmanship that has to go in it. IMO, to have a really nice driving and fun 8, you have to, at a minimum:

- Have an 8 that is built to the characteristics of a lightweight sportscar.
- Have a transmission built to take it and work for a long time (IMO a 915 or 930).
- Have that transmission regeared to work correctly with the V8.
- Have the chassis stiffened.
- Have the entire braking system upgraded.
- Have a well engineered cooling system so that it doesn't look like a hack job and the car runs cool under all conditions.
- Work out something with the body so that appropriate sized wheels and tires can be fitted.
- Fit a suspension system that makes sense and works with the car.

Then you have to execute all of the above so it doesn't look like a total hack job and is pleasant to look at and work on................................................................................................................


Wow! Well said. Been lurking here for a long time, and while I haven't yet had the time to get my teener back on the road, the V-8 conversion debate keeps coming back to my thoughts, but I was never really sure if the final result of such a conversion would really be what I wanted. That just summed up what I've never read before and what I would ultimately want my end result to be and whether or not I could take it that far. Thanks.

Renegade is definitely the right choice for Subie conversions too - ask me how I know.
Later,

Yup a high centered BRICK is less desirable than one that is light weight. The flat 6 is better due to it's lower center of gravity....but can't really beat the V8 for cheap HP....IF it's done right....

I vote "None of the Above" My car just got delivered to a shop to get started on my project. First up, fitting the 3 Rotor engine into the engine bay with the transmission attached. I'll be sure to take pictures and start a blog. Will it be a hack job? I sincerely hope not. I hired the guy based upon a beautiful LS6 conversion he did on a mid 90's 3 series BMW. It looked almost factory and on the track outgunned an F40. Very nice. He said his biggest problem was people saying they could "do it for $5,000" when it cost him $20,000 and he did all the work. I imagine the same is true for the V8 conversion guys here.

"theres no replacement for displacement, except forced induction"



Being a turbo man like myself, I would have figured that would have been your response... lol

Hey soloracer... One of my buddies is a rotary guru and I've contemplated a couple rotary projects over the past.... *cough* guess it's been 20 years now.

I've watched your posts with interest since I've been here. But haven't seen progress. Can't wait to see your 3-rotor come to life!!!

suby also make a six 3.3 svx and 3.0 liberty(legasy)and outback
SPECIFICATION
Engine capacity 3.0 litre
Maximum power 180 kW @ 6,600 rpm
Maximum torque 297 Nm @ 4,200 rpm
Transmission/drive 5-speed automatic / constant All-wheel-drive

Type: 6-cylinder horizontally-opposed (boxer) for low center of gravity and reduced vibration
Construction: Die-cast aluminum ally block, cast aluminum alloy heads with 4 valves per cylinder and centrally located spark plugs
Valve Train: 24-valve, with dual overhead camshafts (DOHC) and hydraulic valve lash adjusters
Displacement: 3.3 liter / 3318 cc / 202.5 cubic inches
Bore and Stroke: 96.9 mm x 75 mm / 3.815 inches x 2.95 inches
Compression Ratio: 10.0:1
Horsepower: 230 @ 5,400 rpm
Torque: 228 @ 4,400 rpm
Maximum Engine Speed: 7,000 rpm

and some modded
B11S Four-Door Sports Coupe Concept
Introduced at the 2003 International Geneva Motor Show, the B11S stands as an elegant and practical reinterpretation of the traditional coupe. Developed as a Gran Utility Turismo and emphasizing sporty driving, comfort, functionality and elegance, the B11S offers superb levels of performance, ensured by the inherent balance of the Subaru symmetrical full-time All-Wheel Drive system.
Under the hood, the B11S features a six-cylinder, 3.0 litre twin-turbocharged SUBARU BOXER engine developing an estimated 400 hp and 406 lb-ft of torque while still meeting global environmental considerations.
svx suby 3.3
The power train was equipped with a newly developed Horizontally-Opposed six-cylinder twin-turbo Engine. It more than met performance targets with a maximum output of 294 kW (400 ps), and a maximum torque of 550 Nm (56.1 kgfm).

maybe this is of some interest

I seriously considered a suby 3.3 six and was thinking of going turbo at the time. I was thinking of using the pistons from the turbocharged 2.2 four. But there hasn't been a lot of work done with the subaru flat sixes and that scared me away. It can be very expensive being the first to do something. So I started thinking that for reliability and predictable performance at a race track I should go normally aspirated instead. Going N/A also meant keeping the install simple - no intercooler plumbing to worry about. Since I knew I could get 400 hp out of a non turbo rotary I decided to go that route. Should be fun.

It is possiblle to build a nice conversion car on a budget. The devil is in the details.

Use a 283 or a 327 instead of a 400. Cost is negligible, but personality change is HUGE. Do the work yourself as much as possible.

I just finished (hahahaha they're never finished) a wrx install into a 914. I built the wiring harness myself (wouldn't do it again though). i built all the intercooler mounting stuff, and piping myself. I built my own exhaust. Installed the motor in the garage, etc... I have less than 6K tied up at retail prices, (former Renegade employee discount isn't for everyone ) and should be over 300HP at the wheels (bigger injectors, turbo and Stand alone ECU, all bought used from Nasioc)

PLEASE spend the tiny extra bit of time and make the wiring neat. Run the rad. lines in one piece, neatly.

Paint (rattle can is ok) the engine compartment...

All the little things will make your car 100x nicer then saving 2 minutes here an there.

BJH

My favorite 914 to drive was the turbocharged 2 liter. that thing was a blast.,
Second favorite was the 71, because it was almost new when I bought it and totally reliable. I drove it anywhere and everywhere.
The V8 car was strong, handled well and was reliable, i just didn't really like the soul of the car. It felt too much like a toy instead of a serious sports car.
I love the sound and feel of a flat six, it makes me feel like i'm going down the mulsane straight, instead of at the fox hunt at the local drag V8 strip.
It's a personal thing and everyone will have a differernt opinion, I just didn't like the car.

Looks like the same arguments I have with myself.The redawg solution seemed intriguing because he dosen't reccomend cutting the wheel wells and claims his radiator shrouding solves that problem.It also made sence to run the hose inside the heater ducts instead of under the car.finally I just don't understand why 3 miles of sheet metal welded to the chassis would be stronger than say a 6 pt cage.Maybe it was just what I wanted to hear but it made sence to me at the time.I have been burned 1 time to many to even think about a 6 porsche motor .Motor Meister and Auto Atlanta both have very costly 6 conversions that would be double the cost for half the power.Renegade seems legit but when does the money stop .According to 914-8 50k ought to cover it.I was thinking 5 to 7k cause I already have 911t struts and sway bar and springs with bilstiens on all 4 corners drilled rear hubs and 6in fuchs.Just looking for something that won't cower to a honda civic or GTI.

5-7K will get it done on a budget if you can do the work yourself.

Hose in the heater ducts is not a good thing. Reasons have been discussed before multiple times. Run good hose under the car, it will last 5 years minimum.

a 6pt cage will be plenty strong, and on the street will be over kill. A clean, rustfree chassis will last forever w/ 300hp, above about 400 you will wear them out over a few years (driven hard, not a wheel wax weenie)

Red Dawg is not so bueno... I have seen, dismantled and thouroughly pawed over 3 of there cars. One of the cars i took lots of pics of and it spawned the "Wall of Shame" on the renegade hybrids page. Look it over.

Feel free to PM me w/ any questions, ive done this a few dozen times, and i'm not gettting payed by anyone (anymore)

BJH

I had bad luck with the hoses in the ducts, after a while they tended to kink and getting and keeping them air-free was a PITA. After I put em under the car I had no problems at all.

What about the radiator shrouding?Does it work?Really not hip on cutting the fenderwells.If its the best way I guess it'll have to be done.

cutting fenderwells is fine. You have 5-7k?

(deep breath)

OK

Quote from rennegade
" 914 V8 Conversion – The Open Budget
$1,800 BASIC 914 V8 CONVERSION KIT
$325 9" CLUTCH UPGRADE
$995 RADIATOR KIT
$110 RADIATOR HOSE
$3,000 CHEVY V8 PERFORMANCE ENGINE-REBUILT WITH ACCESSORIES
$239 STARTER - HI-TORQUE, LIGHTWEIGHT
$300 CUSTOM HEADERS
$300 CUSTOM EXHAUST SYSTEM
$170 200# REAR SPRINGS
$190 ENGINE WIRING HARNESS
$240 WIRING SUPPLIES, GAUGES, SENDERS, TACH RECALIBRATION
$140 AIR CLEANER, HOSE, STRAPS, AND MISC. HARDWARE
$7,809.00 << TOTAL
"

Now.. Let me do my "modifyed" list
914 V8 Conversion – The Open Budget
$1,800 BASIC 914 V8 CONVERSION KIT
$325(OPTIONAL) 9" CLUTCH UPGRADE (If plan for over 300tq, go with this.. Keep in mind your trani will break. Having a cheap weak link like a clutch is go)
$995 RADIATOR KIT (Saves you 50 hours of headaches.. Trust me)
$110 RADIATOR HOSE
ENGINE: Crate engines are 1500 bucks... and a good idea. I suggest going with a small stroke engine, 283, 327, 302. And camming it. 3k-6.5k is a good cam range. Tq will kill your engine, and make your car feel like a dragster, High end hp, will give you a sporty turbocharged porsche feel.. and it feels good. This Will not be added to the price yet.

ACCESSORIES
$239 STARTER - HI-TORQUE, LIGHTWEIGHT (need)
$150 Chevy S10 headers/truck headers(custom? S10 v8 headers work good. Shorty headers will need major exhaust work to clear the shifter bar
$300 CUSTOM EXHAUST SYSTEM (I suggest magnaflow mufflers, Smaller diameter will make it livable for the street, 2in would be good. 2.5 is really loud, ticket range)
Wireing harness? Were talking 3 wires for the dizzy.. and then one big wire for the alternator... Heres your wiring supply's and guages and junk. \/ \/ \/
$200 WIRING SUPPLIES, GAUGES, SENDERS, TACH RECALIBRATION(Do it yourself for 20 bucks)
$140 AIR CLEANER, HOSE, STRAPS, AND MISC. HARDWARE
4250 << TOTAL + engine.


You can almost get running sbc engines for free... Add in a $250 cam, and a good carb, and your good for a while... lol


Thats MY expensive way around....

Thats NO fab work for you, just plug and play!(almost)

[quote name='914rat' date='Jul 18 2006, 04:49 PM' post='731600']
[/quote]What about the radiator shrouding?Does it work?Really not hip on cutting the fenderwells.If its the best way I guess it'll have to be done.
[/quote]

I have3 seen every 914 radiator kit available, and quite a few that were one of a kind made, and Renegades is in my car. ( Payed alot for it too Retail on it is 1100, and 4 years of my life is only good for a $75 discount )

The fenderwell cooling works. (note the period)
It is possible to get a car to cool going through the hood, but you need a lip on the front edge roughly 1" tall to cause a low pressure area and help the air out @ speed.

And IMHO it looks like donkey dung...

BJH

I have $8K total into my car.

That includes:
car
engine, adapters, etc
tranny with tll gears
radiator
frame kit
suspension
wheels
paint
pretty much everything

0-60 < 5 sec
top speed 150+

Very driveable, somewhat comfortable

I hve put 25,000 miles on my car in 4 years. I am always making improvements.

Its the best car I have ever owned.

Mark

Shoot mark, I have 10k into my car... I aint got paint, and I got it for free (almost)! And most of the stuff for it is near free... Then again... I have almost 5k worth of rolling stuff... lol

How much did you spend on your conversion? Thats freeking cheap...

I have met and talked extensively with the original owner of Renegade (Andy Leany) in Redlands, CA and the current owners now in Vegas (Scott & Mike). I've met Rod Simpson at his shop in West LA...and I've had quite an experience talking with the Red Dawg Racing characters in Tehachapi, CA. I would say Renegade all the way. Simpson is ok too...but I like Renegade better. Red Dawg? run away! They are clowns. Two things, I ditto what 914-8 said in an earlier post...he's right on the money. Most V-8 cars are thrown together and never operate properly for obvious reasons. A good V-8 conversion will cost as much or more than a 914/6 conversion in most cases. I chose to put a built LS6 in my car (for which there exists no kit)...so everything else on my car is rather expensive to support the high HP. You need big bad brakes...big bad trans...bad ass chassis stiffening, lots of custom work, on and on.... It all costs money. I have about 45-50K in my car and I performed all the work. I'd hate to imagine what it would cost to hire out! Do it once...do it right...or DO NOT DO IT!

Bill

Hear Hear!

That skating dog cracks me up everytime I see it. When are you going to motorize it?

Done right neither conversion will be cheap. The ads all call the conversions as cheaper way to fly. Not if you want to do it right.

The one benefit to a six conversion is it is all Porsche and it could have a higher resale. Plus there is a bigger market for a 914-6 although that is probably not that big of a deal.

I tried to get that skating dog video to move but I can't seem to figure out how to do it! (computer challenged). I have actually seen a few videos of that dog...and it is for real. He can bring the skate board up to speed...hop on...and skillfully turn the thing! When he slows down...he turns the thing toward an open section of pavement and does it all over and over again. It's hilarious to see!

I went with Desert Hybrids.

The basic stuff (waterpump, mounts, cross bar, adapter) cost me $1300 5 years ago.

I am currently running a Renegade clone radiator that my local rad shop fabbed for $275.

Engine was out of a crashed figure 8/circle track car $300, the cam is ideal for the V8, most of ther power is midrange 2500-5500 rpm

Most of the other parts were bought used (911 suspension, wheels, seats, etc)

There are more pics on my webshots.

Its no show car, and its not the fastest one ever built but its fun and reliable.

Mark

Six

You've got a .jpg there... You can't animate a .jpg. If you save it as a .gif, it should work.

Google video of skateboarding dog