Investigating what it takes to get the track for the day.

20-40 drivers 4 hours+ track time.
1-2 run groups or on/off priveledges all day.

Experienced drivers only.

Any interest?

Trek, You know I'm there, but isnt this a big undertaking? Insurance, coordination, etc?

Yes, yes and......yes.

A private group is forming and we are doing all the research before we leap.


KT

Very likely we will persue several track dates and it will be by invite only.

KT

sounds like fun....

a friend of a friend rented ThunderHill a couple of years ago...5 cars had been schedualed to run, only 2 showed up, a Formula Renault and a friends 914.

Between the owner of the 914 and myself, we put over 300 miles on his car that day on the track, that included taking time off for lunch and BS sessions....we had the track until 5pm but called it a day before 4pm due to being too tired ...we took 30 minute to 45 minutes sessions..oh yea, the Formula Renault was only on the track for 20 minutes tops the entire day....

Ooooh, how exclusive....

Yes...

oh...oh...pick me Mr. Kottair....pick me!

I'm in...

Bill P.

who says any of us will get invites?

They may know our history

We are in the planning stages. There are about 12-20 of us who are LPR/GGR/RR PCA a/x and track regulars.

We all know each other well on track and are out to have fun, not drive aggresively and play racer. Fast, yes. Safe, yes. Crazy, no.

Mandatory point-by passing ONLY.

We all know several track enthusiasts who fit this description.
Not for profit, so costs will be low with max track time.

Possible time trial at the end of the day is being discussed as well.

We're pretty excited as this looks very doable.
FYI: to rent Thill for the day is about $8k. Includes insurance, workers, towing, ambulance, security etc. ( everything )

KT

Is that rental fee for a weekday or a weekend?

I would be more interested in weekends than weekends. I probably wouldn't make many weekday events if any.....

Bill P.

Bill if you look at the TH online schedule.....there is nothing open on weekends until December for 2006. And only a few during the week until December. This is a great idea but remember there are Numerous (a whole bunch) of track clubs, car clubs, proffessional teams, motorcycle clubs, SCCA, NASA blah blah blah, all vying for the weekend dates throughout the year.
Remember GGR gets 3 guaranteed dates per year due to GGR putting in ~$40,000 over a 20 year period besides the track rental fees we pay.

Is this something to be looked into for next year?

Track rental will probably be more like $9k+ for a Friday or weekend date.

I dealt with some of this stuff indirectly when I was GGR competition director and the costs mount up quickly besides just the asphalt rental.
Corner workers $112/day, ambulance $100/hr, tow truck $100/day
starter $150/day on and on and on.
What about insurance if we start a fire or wreck some track equipment/property.

Not trying to rain on your parade but there is a lot of stuff to be considered.

Before I get a barrage of arrows in my back for making this comment, let me state that I'm only trying to keep anyone in the club from losing money. I love running track days and would be glad to run a 914club only track event!

I've organized PCA CCCR Autocross & DE events, and as an entire PCA Region, we can't fill events and lost money on all occasions. We teamed up with Santa Barbara Region and Golden Gate Region and even so BARELY got enough entrants to hold the event....

Some past statistics on West Coast events. We had four 914club members at the June Infineon event, three 914 members at the June PCA Buttonwillow event, and four at the August Leadfoot Adventures event. The hosting orgs did not fill the event even with inviting numerous clubs.... Besides infineon, the other events lost money. Don't think we could do it on our own at this point.

Here is something to consider. Recruit the 914club contingent to attend available track events. When it gets to a point we have so much attendance, we have members that get turned away, that is a signal we may have enough critical mass to hold our own event.

I like this concept, but I don't want anyone in the club to invest the $$$ to rent a track day, and then have only a handful of people show up... ($9K+ is alot to gamble!!)

With that said, holding our own event is something to strive for! Let's see more turnout at the current events to prove we could fill our own event!

No, I appreciate the feedback from someone with real world experience.

From what I can see our $8K quote includes *everything*.



KT

One thing to remember here, this is NOT a "914Club" sponsored event in any way.

Of course we want our experienced 914 friends to come out and have a good time.

I'm odd 914 man out in a group of 12-20 911 track guys.
They all have friends that would come out of the various PCA regions.

Remember, safe, sane and fun. So only drivers we can trust and feel comfortable with.

My list has about 10 of you on it.

All we need is 40 people to keep the cost low.

"Our group" has already agreed we'd pay the $300+ to have our own small attended track day.

We won't do this unless it's right and we cover all the bases.


KT

Trekkor,
The quote you recieved was for a week day I presume?

That in in itself may cut, dramaticly, the numbers of folks that would consider coming out to play in this manner.

I am still interested since I can schedule myself on or off any day I choose. I just need enough lead time to get it done...

I don't know if that was weekday or weekend pricing.

Likely weekday, and that is ok as most of us can take days off as you said


KT

My partner and I posted regularly on 42 forums, got smacked down and banned on 7, and warned on numerous others because we weren't sponsors to their site. Of the 39 paid attendants, 22 of them signed up in the last week. Our break even point was about 46 cars. I don't have final numbers yet.

Also, Bonnie, who runs the Miata board held an event at Streets of Willow last weekend and got 12...yes, 12 cars signed up and took a bath on the event.

That being said, Leadfoot wouldn't mind selling you a run group at a future event/s. Then you would only have to come up with 20 cars or however many you want on the track at once.

That would be my suggestion, try to find a track group that is having trouble filling it's events, and offer to fill one of their run sessions. That way all the leg work and what not is done and all you would need to do is round up 18-20 folks to fill a run group...
at least is would be a start to see what kind of response you would get.

Noted and PM sent...


KT

And...everybody is happy, the organizers for getting the extra drivers and the drivers for getting their seat time.

Dan, Venza31 and I are on the same page! We need to have a strong and consistent turnout of 914club members at exisiting events before even considering organizing a private one! Here are some opportunties to do so:

LeadFoot Adventures (Streets of Willow at the end of September!)
PCA-GGR (Thunderhill August 23-24)
PCA-CCCR (Autocross in Oct)
PCA Coastal Driving DE Series (Thunderhill in October)
TrackMasters
Green Flag
Checkered Flag
etc. etc.

As I mentioned in my previous note, there are usually only a handful of 914club members at these events (less than 10 in all cases).

The LeadFoot Adventures event at Buttonwillow was fantastic track time but only four 914club members attended!!

Again I agree with Dan and Venza31, emphasis should be to fill a grid on existing events versus trying to organize a private event.

Trekkor,

How about seeing how many drivers you can get registered for the TrackMasters Thunderhill event you've been promoting on this forum? That would be a good test run to see if you can get 40 drivers !

Here is another option. The PCA Coastal Driving DE Series is having an Oct 14-15 Event at Thunderhill. Another great opportunity to see if you can recruit the drivers that have verbally committed to supporting your events.

I'd be really interested in the number of drivers you recruit for each of these existing opportunties to get on the track.

I searched to find the previous thread on getting a 914 only grid for the fall TrackMasters event at Thunderhill, and I can't find it...

Trekkor, not sure if that was your thread or you were just a major proponent.

What happened to that proposal?

There is one other thing to consider with doing a private event and that is the insurance. To put it on without being a business is pretty risky unless you know everyone REALLY WELL. The last thing you want to incur is a lawsuit of some type as an individual organizer. You would be completely liable.

My partner and I formed an LLC to protect our personal assets in case of a tragedy. The only way we could be personally liable is gross negligence which is really tough when professionals are all hired for the day. A good example of this is the CGT accident at California Speedway last year.

This is a good point. A private group could form a structure to limit liability just as any other organization does. Trekkor, I would suggest that this effort consult good legal council in structuring how to handle laibility.

Grant, the problem is that there are so many track groups in Norcal....
When you contact a track about a date you don't get to "pick" your date....you send in an application with a set of dates you woud be willing to take. The track then puts your request in with all the other requests and starts assigning dates.
If a group such as NASA or SCCA wants the same date as you do....guess who gets it. Any track including BW, TH, LS or Sears want to have an event that would include putting "butts in the seats". For those events that would the track makes money on several fronts....Track fees, seat fees (tickets), souvenirs, food, etc. When a group such as GGR, trackmasters etc want a date the track is basically limited to only renting the asphalt. Not as much earning potential...They are in business to make as much money as possible for any given weekend and will do so.
I know for a fact that TH prefers to have the Motorcyle groups rent the track because of TH's pricing policy they make a lot more money renting the track to Motorcycle groups.

With that said, I do believe a private group of individuals could make a go of it...just be aware that a newly formed group will be on the bottom of the food chain with respect to date assignment. IE: plan on getting mid week dates offered by the track.

So anybody.

What happened to the effort to get a 914club grid in the fall TrackMasters Thunderhill event. Looks the thread has been deleted?

What happened?

The person who was organizing that event within an event is in the middle of moving to a new city, starting a new job, and several other distractions that took away from his ability to move forward with that effort. As the date got closer he decided to regroup that for next year when his life is more under control.

The date is still on the calender. It is a Trackmasters event in October at the Thunderhill. Remember, it was a run group not a 914 only event.

I am trying to understand the need for more insurance. Insurance is part of the proposal that the track requires and provides. Are you saying that the loose formed group needs insurance as well? It appears that no matter who organizes the event at Thill, SCCA provides all track personal. Am I wrong about this? If SCCA provides the personal aren't they the ones controlling the event and therefore liable? I am only trying to understand the need for more insurance so I don't want to have to put on Nomex here.

A bit of advice to those of you who have not met Trekkor. Don't tell him he can't. He can. He will. You will only make him more determined and, at least he is trying.

Rob, the SCCA workers are that only, workers. They are there to assist us while we are on track, and make the event as safe as possible. They are in no way liable unless they cause a mishap due to gross negligence. The organizer of any event is the entitiy that is liable for any problems during the event, be it an accident of some sort or damage to the track facilities.
As we all know, any one or group can be sued for anything at anytime. I think it would be wise for anyone organizing a complete track day to be appropriately covered.
IF we use a run group from an otherwise already organized group, that group would already have their insurance in place.

I don't see that as a problem. I see it as more choices for individuals who are willing to be part of several groups. As demand goes up in the area I also see potential new tracks being more easily justified. Limited numbers of track groups only leads to complaceny within those who think they arent vunerable to competition and ultimately results in less choices for drivers in the area.

But as indicated by posts above this is a signficant undertaking, even as a private group. It has a slim chance of actually being successful without focused commitment from those who are trying to organize.

A bit of advice to those of you who have not met Trekkor. Don't tell him he can't. He can. He will. You will only make him more determined and, at least he is trying.
[/quote]

I don't believe we're against Trekkor's idea at all. I agree with Dan, a private group can pull it off. I think we're just weighing in with the voice of experience. If Trekkor's made up his mind to rent a track with some friends for a day or three per year, I'm convinced he'll do it.

This is not a 914Club event, or even any car club event. This is a group of folks wanting to maximize track time in a single day with people they know will not be willingly reckless or disrespectful. I've been invited to a few "private" days in the past by other folks I know, and the $300 target is good deal relative to the amount of track time you get.

Trekkor is the lone 914 guy in the group of people he is tracking with. They are on the Pelican 911 and AX/Racing Board and are mostly NorCal guys. Since I have a 911 as well as 2 914's on jackstands , I can see how this idea evolved from their discussions. From what I see, it's mostly guys wanting to get on the track that have a few to several days under their belts on the big tracks, and don't want to figure out the politics of who's butt to kiss to try to get into events.

Trekkor,

You may be a valuable resource for some of the various car clubs. Since most of your Pelican friends are not running GGR Time Trial series or with Leadfoot Adventures, they may be very interested in your 20-40 drivers that you can scare up. I would run with Vinny's Leadfoot guys again, and they can sure use our business. Also PCA-GGR needs new blood. The other car groups have siphoned off enough business that they may be open to suggestions. Let me know if you are interested and I'll hook you up with the Time Trial chairman.

Thanks,

Bill P.

I am the person who wanted to make a go of this, my idea, which became twisted with other inputs, it was more about the spirit of the event that the actual "Lets see how fast I can drive the HOME DEPOT SPECIAL"

BUT it encountered major opposition from a couple of folks here, (3 actually,, Trekkor, Nathan, and Brad Roberts) about not wanting to run with new drivers and demanding how the event would be. Well, I'll say this to those folks...none of them do I really know so it is not personnel.

I know that this event could happen safely if folks wanted it to really happen. It was not planned to be the FIA 914 World Championship. It was about the 914 folks getting together, and sharing the track. Maybe a car show at Thunder Hill I could have called it.

I am as forementioned changing jobs, selling/sold my house, moving/settling in to a new place in a new area. Certainly no time to spend on this venture.

THANKS TO ALL OF THOSE HERE THAT HELPED ME. You know who you are.

Far as an all 914 event with any of the track groups, let someone else put it together. Trekkor is perfect for the job.

Another quick thought before I close, use great caution when you choose whose wisdom you will follow. Doug Gale personly told me that this event could go with no problem, he had run multiple events with this format.

I know what saftey is and how not to act. I don't want my car wadded up anymore than anyone else. It is a chance you take however. Even PRO's crash. Its just not their car...and they damn shure don't pay the bill or do the work when they do.

Martin Baker

Martin, I am confused by your post.

Help me understand where you are coming from.


I'm totally behind your efforts to get a bunch of 914 drivers to the track.
I am however totally against have 20-30 drivers from novice to racer on the track in the same session. That's what I understood was Doug's position from when we spoke at the last track day.

I will stay out of the advanced/racer group for a reason.

At Thill for example, the fastest guys will be turning 2:09-19 second laps and having a very good command of the driving line.

The new to track fellows will be in the 2:30-45+ lap time range and will be all over the track and over-braking. Plus, they will not be in a position to quickly point by a faster driver.
This is the reality of the lurning curve of HSDE driving.

The fast guys will be frustrated because of the stop and go traffic all session while the newbies will be scared because some hot shot is on their tail, pushing them all day.

This WILL lead to a safety concern and increased stress.

Piggy-backing into a track group like TMR is awesome!! Great idea, Martin

We just need to fit into one of the appropiate skill level run groups.

How is the support for Sept 8th?
I may register, as it looks like LS is out for me.


KT

Trying to get a group of unknown drivers together and then placing all of them into the same run session without knowing their abilities, their cars preparation, or a whole bunch of other variables is shear lunacy.
No matter what group be it currently organized or a new private group....must have separate run sessions to accomodate the various skill levels of the cars and drivers.
I see Martin's point but I also agree wtih Trekkor that skill level/car ability all has to be considered when assigning run groups.
I don't think trackmasters would have put us all into the same run group since you would have had a few extremely experienced drivers, a few slightly experienced drivers, and quite a few raw rookies/minimal experience.

I don't want to be on track with raw rookies along with a bunch of faster cars.
I ride in cars with raw rookies all the time, and I see the mistakes they make while an instructor is barking instruction into their ear (communicator turned up).
I certainly don't want to be out there with them without an instructor in the car (all the rookie cars)
A group such as TMR, Coastal Driving, GGR (HSDS) or others are not going to let that happen. I would hope I can absolutely state that this has not or would it ever happen with GGR or CDS....period.

Again, even the folks over on Pelican that Trekkor runs with/knows, I personally would need to see their abilities and skills before I would want to run full tilt with them. That is just my hang up....Just as they should want to see what my skills/history is before they feel comfortable with me.

That is why folks at these groups get the accolades they do. They closely scrutinize the information on their applications....and place folks into the appropriate run group..

If anyone wants to get their car on the track, GGR will be host a TT along with a HSDS (DE) Sept 23 and 24.
The HSDS only requires the driver to have a Helmet and functional seat belts (3,4,5 or 6 point) for both seats. You will have an experienced instructor in your car for both days of track driving....
Or you can always step up to the TT if your car has 5-6 point belts, fire ext. your car would require a tech at an approved shop before the event for TT entrants.
For all of the 914s in norcal that say they want to get their cars out on track there are lots of opportunities....I have yet to see too many out there.
The Zone 7 AX school had 1 914 in attendance. And I can't remember the last time we had a new 914/driver at a GGR TT or HSDS (DE)

So where are all the Norcal 914s anyway

I certainly do not want to turn this into a he said/I said.

I never lobbied or made any suggestions to Doug about the proposed run group. Please believe that.

I personally "nailed" the now deleted thread here in the paddock because it was/still is a great idea.

I only asked how things were progressing and heard what I heard.

KT

I agree putting a mix of skills on course at the same run group would be like playing Russian Roulette.

Possibly true... But the concerned individuals should not have approached Doug Gale. They should have approached Martin. It was his (Martin's) effort and he felt he was watching it eroded by people outside the loop.
If they did not like the way he was setting up the event, they could simply try to change his (Martin's) mind or not participate. Going to Doug was just not right.
It is one thing to express your opinion here. After all, this is a forum and opinions are expected. But quite another to go behind the back of an organizer to change the way an event is structured because you don't want to participate the way the organizer has conceived the event.
At any rate Martin is quite capable of speaking for himself. I will shut up...

....Oh that's another matter altogether.