In all the pics on their web site the brain box appears to be the same. Is it?

I mean they advertise a 4D, 4E and 4F systems with different capabilities. Say I found a 4F system used that was for a 2.3 Ford turbo engine. Could I use it with a 914 for fuel only and ignore any other features.

Yes. Its actually the same box w/ a few extra parts inside and different code. (I had a 2D on my old Jeep) You can always use less features on an EFI - it doesn't care if you use them all. Im currently running fuel only on my 911 that way (using a Haltech E11v2). Its actually the way I prefer to start if you're new to it. Doing only fuel OR spark first. It makes a conversion easier to only have to get one thing right at a time;)

SMD

Ok, another noob question. If I wanted to run brand spanking new injectors rather than the 30 year old variety, is there another injector that doesn't cost an arm and a leg that can be fit into the stock plenum?

I'm also confused about the O2 sensor on SDS systems. I take it that you absolutely need it for tuning. But after the engine is tuned they suggest not using it unless economy is your goal. But it seems like you'd want one all the time so could monitor your air/fuel ratio, correct?

Check this out for SDS install info:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?show...c=53733&hl=

You could use your "used" 2.3 ford turbo system on your 914, BUT- you'll need a 1 bar MPS (manifold pressure sensor) for a non-turbo engine. If you use the turbo MPS, (likely a 2 bar, maybe a 3bar) you'll be cutting down the # of tuning locations availible, as the turbo MPS, and the SDS brain, will be looking for, say, 15 tuning locations with no boost, and 15 locations for boost up to 2bar, for a total of 30 locations. If you are running a non turbo engine, you only have, in this example, 15 tuning locations to adjust manifold pressure based fuel enrichment. You have lost 50% of your flexability in tuning the engine. Using a 1bar MPS, you would have 30, or two times as much resolution. If this "used" system is a 3bar system, in this same example, you'd have 10 locations up to 1bar, 10 more locations from 1bar to 2bar, and 10 more locations from 2bar to 3bar. You'd be missing out on 2/3 of the range of adjustment the system SHOULD be providing, but can't, because it is not matched up to your engine. You CAN buy a 1bar map sensor, and get some help from the SDS guys to re-scale the MPS tuning points on the ecu, and make this work on your 914 application.

When I spoke with the SDS guys about using the system 4-F as fuel only, they were not in favor of trying this, as the crank position sensor provided info for the ignition as well as the fuel. Best to email Ross or Barry direct at SDS to get that answer in greater detail, as my question to them was a yr ago or so, and I forget the details of their answer.

Injectors: Most newer style injectors will use the fuel rail as a mounting point for the top of the injector, as well as a means to secure it to the intake manifold. Add to this the non-standard spacing of the injectors on a factory 914 intake, and you'll need to do some neat fabrication. Not impossible, but if your factory injectors are fine, why not just have then serviced, cleaned, flow tested, and stick with those. This is probably cheeper than new injectors and figuring out how to mount/feed them.

The WIDEBAND 02 sensor is a much needed tool to get it right. Just choke up the $$$ for the WMS system as offered on the SDS page. I'd also check with Ross or Berry on having your "used" system re-flashed to include the 02 logging that the current systems can do. It just gets easier having all the info in one place, rather than having to look at the SDS controller and a separate wideband display, make mental notes on whats up, remember what you wanted to change, pull over, change it, and good luck... Having all the info in one spot, and a trusted driver, makes the tuning go much better.

Great install thread David!

David, for the same $$$, I'd get the Innovate Motorsports LC-1/XD-16 WBO2. Its a far more flexible unit, will work w/ the SDS, has real logging, and can take other sensor inputs down the road (like though the LMA-3 auxbox). I've got a pair of them and one LMA-3 and its a must have for tuning. On the "cheap", a LC-1 by itself is probably the best bang for the buck wideband out there. I'd argue you dont need the XD-16 since the SDS displays the AFR. I use just a LC-1 w/ no display w/ my haltech.

SMD

No the SDS "F" system will not work fuel only as the you need a sync signal. For a fee I think SDS would turn it into a fuel only system though.

The Innovate WB is NOT just plug and play on a SDS, you have to make a type of converter box. There are some theads on "how to" on the SDS forums I believe.

If it is an older EM-4 system it does not have data-logging, but for about $100 you can get a V-14 chip (from SDS) and re-chip it yourself to have full datalog.

Mark,
Obviouslly you have to provide the crank signal that the ecu wants to see. It will still do fuel only. The ECU has no clue that its not actually controlling the spark. 4 magnets in the crank pulley and a cam signal and you're ready to go. Thats the only difference in the systems.

Why wont the innovate drive the SDS? Both it and the WMS system have narrowband (0-1V) and wideband (0-5V) outputs. Why cant you program the LC-1 to output the same range as the WMS? I did some searching on the SDS site:
http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.html
See the "01/07/05 Using Other Wideband Meters With SDS V14 Software" The Innovate controllers will work.

Edit: The 4"F" system does have the added complexity of the cam signal that a "D" or"E" system wouldn't require. It will still work, but you do need to provide the signal.

FWIW, I *THINK* the MAP sensor range is selected by dip switches inside. When I had mine, I changed to the little 1/8 NPT WT/AT sensors and they gave me instructions to change the resistors and some dip switches to use a different temp curve. They were very helpfull in providing the data so I didn't have to send the unit back.

FWIW2, the control has no idea a 1/2/3 bar map sensor is plugged in anyway. You will still get the full range if you use a 1 bar MAP on a 3 bar ECU, but the scale will be off. You'll read atmospheric pressure as 2 bar boost. The table will look the same.

FWIW3, I even used my 4cyl SDS to start up my 911 after the rebuild (until I decided on the Haltech). The RPM just read 1.5x actual. The fuel values simply end up 66% of what they would have been in a 6cyl ecu. No biggie since they are completely arbitrary #s to begin with.

SMD

I guess that is what I was trying to avoid. How hard is this to get going on the type IV motor?

My plan was to use a Mallory optical distributor and EFI for fuel only to make it as simple as possible. Is there a performance advantage to crank fired spark over the Mallory?

[quote name='smdubovsky' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:41 AM' post='768635']
Mark,
Obviouslly you have to provide the crank signal that the ecu wants to see. It will still do fuel only. The ECU has no clue that its not actually controlling the spark. 4 magnets in the crank pulley and a cam signal and you're ready to go. Thats the only difference in the systems.

***your point is correct, as is mine. you could run the system as fuel only, but you still would have to mount the hall sensor and the 3 mags for a 4 cyl application. If you're going to all that effort, why not just: 1) run the ignition from the get go, or 2) spend less $$$ and get the fuel only. ***

Why wont the innovate drive the SDS? Both it and the WMS system have narrowband (0-1V) and wideband (0-5V) outputs. Why cant you program the LC-1 to output the same range as the WMS? I did some searching on the SDS site:
http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.html
See the "01/07/05 Using Other Wideband Meters With SDS V14 Software" The Innovate controllers will work.

*** I have owned both the innovate and the wms. I think marks point is that the innovate can be made to work with the SDS, but the wms system is more "plug and play" than the innovate stuff. And yes, if you want more, the innovate has the potential to do more, but for my purposes, the ease of install, "plug and play" hook up, and goals for the project, out weighed the added versitility/complexity of the innovate goods. I sold my lm-1 and bought the wms. If you're more familier with the innovate stuff and have taken the time to learn to use all its potential, cool! I made my decision, others will make theirs. ***

Edit: The 4"F" system does have the added complexity of the cam signal that a "D" or"E" system wouldn't require. It will still work, but you do need to provide the signal.

FWIW, I *THINK* the MAP sensor range is selected by dip switches inside. When I had mine, I changed to the little 1/8 NPT WT/AT sensors and they gave me instructions to change the resistors and some dip switches to use a different temp curve. They were very helpfull in providing the data so I didn't have to send the unit back.

***I am not aware of dip switches in the current ecu, but I have not pulled the cover off to check. I did talk to Ross and Barry about updating my current system to work with turbo boost, they said all you needed was the correct map sensor, and they could talk me thru axcessing the correct map tables on the ecu. They made it sound like all 3 tables, n/a, 2bar, 3bar were all in the ecu now, and just needed to be switched. As there is no turbo on the car (yet) I have not asked them more about how to do this. Not sure how this feature would be accomidated on older SDS units. ***

FWIW2, the control has no idea a 1/2/3 bar map sensor is plugged in anyway. You will still get the full range if you use a 1 bar MAP on a 3 bar ECU, but the scale will be off. You'll read atmospheric pressure as 2 bar boost. The table will look the same.

*** you sure on this? Seems simpler to just get it right the first time, with the correct map sensor and programing in the ecu.***


FWIW3, I even used my 4cyl SDS to start up my 911 after the rebuild (until I decided on the Haltech). The RPM just read 1.5x actual. The fuel values simply end up 66% of what they would have been in a 6cyl ecu. No biggie since they are completely arbitrary #s to begin with.

*** thats pretty cool, how did you get addl fuel for the 2 addl cyls? ***

*** I've not used the Mallory myself, but everyone else around here seems to see it as a noticable improvement over the stock dizzy. I would expect that having crank fired ignition would be one step further. Your plan was my plan for awhile, SDS fuel only, with mallory and a coil, but the more I thought about it, researched things, thought thru the wrenching involved, I decided to go all the way with the crank fired system, mainly so that once the turbo is installed, retarding timing would be easy and accurate. What are your goals for the project? This will help guide your decisions. ***

David,
I'd never recommend the "F" for fuel only if buying new, but Anthony says hes looking at a used system. If he can get a smokin' deal on an "F", Id be tempted to go that way. For a good enough deal, I'd overlook the 1/2/3 bar interface issue. Agreed, if you were buying new get the right one bvut beggars cant be choosers. You make a good point, that he might be able to send it back to SDS to get different code. All depends on price. BTW, the only difference betwen the map sensors is the color of the plug. The plugs color determines the key location. All of them output ~0-5V across the full range. So, if you cut off the 3 bar connector, and put a 1 bar connector & sensor on, the ECU has no idea.

I used high imped injectors on the 911. So, I just paralleled two pairs. SDS is batch fire so it made no difference.

Anthony,
There is no performance advantage to crank fired spark over distributor based. The argument is actually more power in favor of a CDI based distributor system since you can run bigger gaps.

*IF* you end up buying a system that can do spark, I'd recommend going that way EVENTuALLY. Full spark control w/ an ECU is better than any advance curve in a dizzy. Keep your existing ign/dizzy, get the fuel running & tuned, then convert the spark over too (dizzy "E" or dizzyless "F" doesn't really matter). I just haven't gotten that far on my 911 (bodywork is getting in the way).


SMD

This is confusing. Paragraph 1 says no performance advantage to crank fired, paragraph 2 says full ecu spark control is better than any advance curve on a dizzy. Assuming that one has the time and smarts to get thru the programing/tuning, I'd go with the ecu control every time. Haven't seen many dizzy's in an F1 pit lately... (just poking a little fun at cha...)

Time and time again direct fire has proven in back to back comparisons against the best Dizzy money can buy (Mallory) to make 10% more power.

Spark accuracy is the key as well as being able to pull timing away as RPM increases. Fulloptimized advance curves will add timing to peak torque and then take it away at high RPM as piston speed increases and the need for advance decreases. That can't be done with a dizzy.

Our ignition dyno cast will prove all of this next month on the same engine- LIVE!

The other day I thought my car was stuggling a little at idle. Leaning it out a touch helped but, adding a couple of degrees really helped. I did that just for the area of the timing map at idle. I also have a little extra advance for warmup and a little retard at high intake manifold temps (above 135 degrees). Try doing that with a dizzy.

Dave

I would have to agree with Jake(on this one). Bigger gaps are small patatos compared to the ability to accurately control your ignition electronically. This also helps a great deal in protecting your engine should you decide to slap a turbo on there. Still, I would agree with Dubovsky that, as a practical matter, you might consider keeping a distributor system for a while. Mapping your fuel delivery is fairly large undertaking, and if you have a completely separate dizzy system that you know works, then that will get you on the road sooner. Still, you may need to FINE tune your fuel mapping a little once you decide to go to crank fired spark.
Mark D.

Sorry, I just wrote it in a confusing way. Let me try to straighten it out:

1) Dizzy w/ points/optical/magnetic trigger. This is what you have now. The timing isn't as precise and you have limited control over the advance curve. You would use an SDS "D" system.

2) You can use a dizzy to only distribute the spark but control the timing w/ the ECU. This is how 911s did it up until the 996 (when they went coil on plug.) This will make the MOST power because you can use a CDI setup and thus run huge gaps. It also has very accurate timing control and you can do things like vacuum advance to help economy but not hurt WOT power. You would use an SDS "E" system.

3) You can go full distributorless. SDS "F" system. This gives up a tiny bit of power to option #2 because its inductive and waste spark. (Not enough to matter except possibly for racing.) The timing accuracy & control is the exact same as #2.

Jake is comparing #1 and #3.

SMD

As stated by someone who has never used SDS.... Obviously

As for programming you will be on the road in munites.
The bulk of the programming will be done with-in a half hour.
Programming the ignition will take another 5-10 min MAX.

After you may play a bit, but not a whole lot will change.

Sure maybe I'm faster because I've done it before, not a whole lot I bet.
It will take you longer to install the system than to tune it.
WB is a must.

I miss James Montebello (Lapuwali) getting in on these PEFI threads.
Great loss of knowledge, he always had some good input.

My project goal is one of Jake's 2270 kits. I've never messed with carbs so I'd rather become an EFI person at this point rather than a carb person.

This is a 95% street 914 with an occasional autocrosses thrown in for fun. I don't care about classes or points. It's just going to be a fun street car with a hot rod type IV engine.

I've been doing my research on Megasquirt and SDS just seems be more reliable overall. After talking to people that have actually done Megasquirt successfully I'm a little put off my the time required and the need to carry a laptop in the car all the time. (At least those that I spoke with felt like they should keep the laptop with them all the time.) They also seemed to put in about 40+ hours into just the ECU and 10-20 hours into the wiring harness to get it all successfully working and the wires routed cleanly. You can save some time by the megasquirt components pre-built but then it seems to cost almost as much as the SDS system.

I may do Megasquirt just for the hell of it on another 2056 project that I'm planning but for this 2270 SDS just seemed easier and more reliable all the way around.

BTW, thanks for all the comments in this topic. It's been very educational. I also read as many other topics as I could find but without being able to search for "SDS" on the club site it's a little hard to find stuff.

As far as buying used equipment, I was noticing that these things sold for around $400-600 on ebay so I was trying to determine the viability of going with a used ECU. I can see now that it's not that easy. I was sort of hoping that all the ECUs were the same and just changed with software and/or dip switches or that features could be turned on/off in software but now I see that it's only a little bit like that. It may just make sense to go with a new unit and the support that comes with it though I've heard that they do support used units.

Me too. He always had a way to help you understand.

Dave

They will support a used unit BUT they will also make sure it's not hot. Try to get the originial invoice.

I'd never buy anything older than an EM-3

And you never know what a DAPO might have done.

I messed around with a laptop programable system, it wasn't rocket science, but there was more to it than the SDS, thats for sure. I thought about mega squirt, but again, while a great adventure in learning and doing, well, I wanted it to run again soon, without the learning curve to build and set all the options for that system.

I like my SDS.

Good. You'll benefit from a full fuel map for SDS and recommendations for fuel pressure, T/B sizing and injectors.

Jake, I forgot to ask you when we spoke on the phone. Should I think about crank fired ignition on my kit?

anthony, for brand new injectors I bought 8 from 5.0motorsports.com for $300 delivered. many brands and types available

buy a new wbo2 as recommended by innovate and you are free to borrow an LC-1 while tuning the system

Thanks for the offer Mike. I may buy an LC1 just to have around anyway. Can you double check the link? I tried it but no go. I also googled it but didn't find it.

I believe mike means: www.fiveomotorsport.com

An LC-1 is handy for tuning the SC too;)