EMS development has gone well. The D-Jet replacement with DIS ignition is a success, very pleased with how well it drives and the ease of setting it up. Now a second opinion is required to gain additional field experience.

One unit will be given away in return for testing the unit, and providing feedback in a timely manner.

This first candidate must have the following qualifications and equipment:

1. Experience in using RS232 terminal program (Hyperterm is an example) on a portable PC.

2. A donor car, Porsche or VW with 1.6L, 1.7L or 2.0L D-jet system, due for replacement. Fuel system and engine should be in good working order.

3. Electrical and mechanical skills: capable of replacing a distributor and TPS, mounting coil and unit, setting dead timing also following a wiring diagram.

4. Engine tuning experience. Basic trouble shooting skills. Experience with multimeter.

5. The ability to work and resolve issues if they arise using e-mail.

6. The time to do it! If everything is ready, a few hours for install.

Beta testing will begin in about two months (after holidays).

"There can only be one!" (Highlander)

If interested please send to me offline in 500 words or less, enough to convince me you are the one.

Please no hard feelings, if you are not chosen at this time.

KitCarlson
Please visit: http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

Keep up the good work, Kit! Please post dyno results (including A/F ratios) when you can.

Charles,
No dyno other than seat of the pants yet. Throttle response is terrific, drivability excellent cold and through warm-up, just like a new efi car. Idle is very strong, pulls like a tractor. I do not expect significant gains, just better tuning, picking up a few to several HP, in weak spots of carbs or on modified engines with stock D-jet. After driving the car for a few days under varying conditions, I am very satisfied. Finding places for improvement is difficult. May go north to find some colder weather this winter.

Seat of the pants fuel calibration worked, test drives afterward with 5-gas very good, surprised me. Typically 12:1 under acceleration, 15:1 under light cruise. Head temperature in lower valve compartment corner ~94C and very stable +- a only few degrees. The basic fuel calculation based on RPM,MAP, VE, and intake temperature seems very good. All operation is open loop at the moment. I need to change to a header to place the O2 sensor.

This may sound funny, I think I have an Angel that knows EFI at my shoulder. An engineer typically depends on all sorts of instrumentation for decision making. Intuition is the winner here. Guesses for enrichment values, prime pulses, and control strategy have been very lucky!

I found that air intake temperature at manifold was high (57C), and relocated with a short hose, lowered temperature by 15 degrees C. It is nice to have all the diagnostic information available. Cool => higher air density => more power. I think it is possible to make it lower with insulation from engine.

I am locating parts for a home built dyno using hydraulics. I expect only crude HP readings based on calculations involving pressure and GPM flow. Main interest now is load device.

Hope someday to work with Jake Raby on one of his Massive engines on a real dyno.

KitCarlson Please Visit: http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

I can't help ya, hell I don't even know what half of the words you used mean . . . BUT I think this is really cool. Way to go. Three cheers for Kit!

-Chris

Kit,

why didnt we speak about this at the MUSR ??


B

Brad,

Sorry, I was not at the MUSR. I have been having a hard time pulling myself away from this development work. I want to go to the MUSR some day. I do have to get out more.

KitCarlson

Interesting. We had a Kit Carlson at the MUSR from TN.

I'm insterested in being "the" person but I'm not writing a 500 word "summary" of why I should be the one for testing. I do enough "writing" on this BBS and 914 support that I should qualify because I'm "me". I'll do actual dyno pulls and install it on 2 different cars. One with a bone stock 2.0 engine and one with a stock cammed 2056.

I'm highly interested in marketing something like this and have held off because Megasquirt didnt have a easy ignition control option.

I also have 4 engine builds coming up and all of them are 2.0 engines and any of them could use a more aggressive cam and a aftermarket injection system.

What I'm trying to say: send it to me. I already know injection tuning and carry a laptop to every race.


ALL914.com
20 Pamaron Way UnitD
Novato, Ca. 94949


B

Brad would be a good canidate, that way we can do a side to side comparison with my Megasquirt 2.0

Brad is the man for the job!

-Chris

Even though Mueller cant spell... candidate.


B

How about if 500 of us send in a one word essay (well okay, not really an essay then).

Here goes...

"Brad".

Now we just need 498 more.

oh great, now you are starting to sound like my wife

So what is the deal with my heads?

Are they complete or can we catch him in time to install my new stainless valves??

Thanks Swood ..LOL that is funny.

They are not done.. and we can have him install the new valves.

I spoke with Raby. I need all your parts. I'm going to send a pallet to him with 4 engines worth of parts.


B

"One picture tells more than 1000 words."

.... and I think you can shoot pics

Thanks for the vote Timo.

Cant send stickers out in a timely fashion.. but damn it I can take some pictures and spew 914 info until YOU puke...LOL


B

LOL !!!!!!

David,

I have a Palm3 and a Palm 5. I also have a Casiopeia (sp?) with Windows CE. Laptop is a Dell running W2K.

Instead of Rs232 you might think about RJ45. This is quickly becoming the standard for communication with programming small devices.

I can also help source a mass board manufacturing place (7-8$ a board).

I see in your bio that you built an electric car. Do you know Otmar from Electric Cafe ?? He builds some of the most extreme controllers I have ever seen for Electric car drag racers.

B

Ok! Ok! Brad is the "One"!

Thank you for all response, sorry there can only be one.

Looking forward to the tests.

RJ45 is just the connector, which in your case is ethernet. I don't think he wants to build an ethernet hub into his controller (snaaaark snaaaark snaaaark - geek humour)

RS-232 or RS-442 will always be the way people do this, as just about anything can cable up to it and run. Now there is no reason that it shouldn't have a nice high density connector on it, like, say, a RJ45. RJ45's corrode though, so they may not be best in the harsh automotive environment.

Kit,

One question... how do you think this setup will fare as compared to the SDS kit (effectivity and cost)? I know a type IV guy who swears by it.

I agree. You can run RS232 over an RJ45 connector (Actually - cisco do this) - if you want the easier crimping and cable connection.

Running ethernet around a car is likely to be a little problematic since it's not buffered well and is susceptable to noise. A true Rs232 spec port can be wired to the mains without breaking anything. Which is why most ports are RS232 Compatable (not compliant :-) ).

Fiid.

what he said!

unless you use the double-shielded cat5 it won't hold up around a running motor. too much interference (sp?). and most people don't even know cat5 comes in double-shielded.

Andy

I'm not Mr. Ethernet. I was thinking more along the lines of what Cisco does with ALL of its product line. I have 4-6 Cisco cables I can use. You would be hard pressed to make me "think" that there would be a problem sitting in the passenger compartment tuning a 914 with a Cisco style cable. Those cables worked very well in an enviroment much worse than any 914 could offer up. 99% of the time I configured a router I was sitting/standing next to 100's of computer/fans/fire suppression/monitors... blah blah.

I just want to use something other than a RS232 cable.

Otmar the electric 914 guy figured it out. He used his Palm pilot with a RJ45 ethernet cable.


B

yeah, but those fans didn't have points and rotors and spark plugs.

very strong magnetic fields building up and collapsing = alotta induction
Andy

Thats ok. None of the cars I plan to tune will have points.

If the brain is mounted in the passenger compartment and I'm tuning from the passenger seat... I dont see a problem.


B

Sorry for the delay, been out test driving.

The serial communications is presently running at 57.6K baud. Without problems. Three pins are used on one of the connectors. The cable is terminated with a BD9 female that can plug directly to a PC. The addition of a connector on the EMS is a good idea. When at the engine, the cable to the passenger compartment could be detached and a local one plugged in. The connector also makes the install easier. The DB9 requires a large hole.

I have been using a cable draped over the car and stuffed a window. Fixed that yesterday too.

What about a RJ11, a phone cable type, smaller than a RJ45?

KitCarlson

The biggest complaint I have about the SDS system is cutting a big f-ing hole (1 1/2") for the connectors. I don't like to do it on a (my) nice teen.

Thats anpther reason I would want to install the ECU as a sleeper into the OEM ECU box....to avoid any holes in the chassis. It can be made waterproof enough.

Jeff,

That's how I did my SDS install, I was going to surprise ya.

But with the SDS system it's a total PITA

Issue #1
You still have to run a DB9 cable to the controller, a three wire for the mixture knob and a single wire for the mixture meter. The cables for the controls are only 6' so they're a bit short. I took a 2nd DB9 and cut it and ran the wires through a 9/16 hole and grommet, then spliced them back together. It seems to work OK but this may (or may not) be part of my low idle miss problem.

Issue #2
You will have to take the box apart every time you R&R the engine to disconnect the crank sensor (another DB9), the 3 wire and the controller DB9. I want to be able disconnect the harness within minutes. With it in the cab I would only have to disconnect 1 DB9, the rest will disconnect right at the engine, about a half dozen quick disconnects.

Some of these issues may not be a problem for most people, but as an engine builder I may be R&Ring my engine quite often for the first while. Also if you don't go with the crankfire this is much less of an issue. I guess you can cut/splice/different connector the unit but I don't want to hack up the harness much.

I admit that I was in too much of a rush to try and get my system up and running, that's why I decided to step back and take the winter to DWD my set up. Not to mention that I still have 6 engines to build before X-mas and 10 more (including two 2270 T4’s) already booked for next spring.


Kit, I'm not trying to hijack your thread and I’m not saying that one PEFI system will be better than another. I'm just expressing some of the problems that pisses end users off. The end user of your product won't give a rat’s ass about the tech. They will care about the ease of installation, a good-looking install and the ease of programming period. “Keep it simple stupid” or should I say “keep it simple for us stupid’s.
If it’s not simple (and cost effective) people will just buy carb’s or keep it stock.

You may want to sub-contract your 914 specific wiring harnesses to Jeff (Bowlsby) as he does nice work. I may still send my harness to him to tidy up and put boots on it once I'm happy with it.

The difference is the wire protocol, not the cable. There is no problem with your plan - I'm just nitpicking.. :-)

AFAIK, Ethernet is TTL - so 0v is off and 5v is on. It's very fast, and the wire goes pretty much directly into the logic circuit that processes it. This is why plugging the phone cord into an ethernet card tends to fry it.

RS232 is +12 on and -12 off. It's much harder to confuse it with little voltage spikes. It's also much slower.

RS232 goes through a shitload of buffering before it gets to any of the logic. You should be able to wire up your RS232 port to a 110volt wall outlet and it still work afterwards (do not try this at home - most RS232 ports are not TRUE RS232 - they are just compatable... but still much better buffered.

Anything capable of delivering a spark is capable of introducing enough noise in ethernet to disrupt transmition, (unless you are using super-shielded cable) - but I would still shy away from it. It might introduce enough noise to fry things. If you want high speed networking as opposed to a point to point link (RS232) you can use the CAN bus which is designed for this type of environment.

Early radio transmiters used exactly this method of signal generation actually - thay had a little wheel which introduced constant sparks - it makes a clean enough sine wave to transmit morse code.

Your plan of using RS232 over CAT5 cable is perfectly solid. There are plenty of adaptor kits available (for cisco gear) that will see you right.

Anything with 3 or more pins will work - it's just what is easier.

There's a bunch of stuff for runnign Serial over RJ45 - just might be easier than having to make a bunch of cables :-)

Fiid.

Totally agree, cat-5e.

God, I must have 10,000ft of that crap!


a

M

Bumpage...

Any news Kit/Brad? This is an exciting topic. I'll need to revisit induction and ignition soon, and if you've got a solution to both, I'm very interested.

Just been real busy. I have been working on the software additions and testing. The metal parts are not in production. I hand make each one and learn as I go. I have been building jigs to help with the fabrication. Also doing some contract work to help with the bills. In about a week the unit should be checked out and ready to ship. I would like to visit Brad for the install, holidays may get in the way. Every day the system gets better.

KitCarlson

I'm stoked on this one, I haven't been excited by the other solutions.

Hurry!


M

Kit, can you pre-spill any details?

Perhaps estimated cost, and installation effort?

Thanks

I have people asking me about the system right now (people having engines built).

I really think this thing will fly nicely with the 914 crowd (if we can keep it simple) and have a database of known running configs for different cams/heads/engine sizes.

B

The install is simple. The fuel system is left intact. The distributor is replaced by a new optical sensor unit. The throttle switch is replaced by a throttle position sensor. The MPS hose from the manifold connects to to EMS. Existing head and manifold temperature sensors are used. A quad coil replaces the ignition coil, plug wires from coil connect directly to plugs. Harness connects for power, injectors, fuel pump ... My website shows parts removed and added.

Please visit http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

All sensors can be easily verified prior to starting with a Palm or PC connection.

Tuning is easy. Initial timing can be set by eye, engine dead, by placing the engine at the desired ignition point (eg. 8 deg BTDC), then rotating distributor till the interrupter just passes sensor A.
The other component is MAP (absolute manifold pressure), 8 points for the vacuum advance control. Bosch curves or rules of thumb (eg. 28deg at 3000) are used to define timing curves.

Base idle fuel (~2-4mS) can be tuned by ear with (+,-) keys. The engine volumetric efficiency follows the torque curve of the engine. The tourque curve found in the owners manual in an excellent starting point. The VE curve has 16 points over the rpm range. A multiplier adjustment is provided to grow or reduce the curve for easy rough-in settings.

All settings are done real time with the ability to save changes.

The unit should be affordable for a reasonable number of units. I need to get the small hardware components in production and a identify a contract manufacturer. Not sure at this time what the assembled cost will be.

It is hard to complete price wise with the DIY MegaSquirt, this unit will sell completely assembled, with parts for a turn-key installation. SDS or less, is my best guess. That rhymes!

KitCarlson

Oops,

Tuning is easy. Initial timing can be set by eye, engine dead, by placing the engine at the desired ignition point (eg. 8 deg BTDC), then rotating distributor till the interrupter just passes sensor A.

The primary table Timing vs RPM, has 16 points. This is added to the base timing, typical curves ramp to a maximum value at (eg. 20 @ 3000 rpm, 8 + 20 = 28) then hold constant.

The other component is MAP (absolute manifold pressure), 8 points for the vacuum advance control. The MAP timing component is usually small, a few degrees. Low MAP relates to high vacuum.

Kit

Thanks Kit

So if I am carbed at the moment, 2.5L 914 engine, 44IDF's, what would I need to purchase... a complete CIS kit from a late car?

Do you think this can be done for under 1K Total, or is this more like $1500-2K?

Just thought of something cool... My Kyocera smartphone has an Infrared link, which routes serial (as do a lot of palms)... Could be cool to do an IR eye somewhere so my phone can be within 5 feet and tune.... could put an eye inside the car and outside (like this:
http://www.mobtech.co.uk/ecbmob/item974.htm

This would work with palms as well.

Dave,

Your situation doesnt lend itself to his kit "easily". His solution is for single throttle body single vacuum source engine.

You will need mutltiple throttle bodies (two TWM's lets say) and then have to plumb all four intake runner for a common vacuum source, plus fuel rails, plus a return line for fuel..plus a high pressure pump.

It can be done, but your costs might be double that of a 914 install where we have 98% of what we need already in the engine compartment.

I will tell you that I have to go down your path with his setup sooner or later. I already use TWM's and know what to do.. just need to do a Raby powered bug soon.


B

My application for the KC setup will also require twin TBs Brad.

You work it out, I buy it.... better than asking you questions for free.



I guess..


M

Heh... true. My induction changes will not be for a while, it'll be interesting to see what happens here. Keep us posted Brad and Kit.

Thanks

Brad

Do you use the injectors in the TWM throttle bodies, or would you put bungs in the manifold and make it so that it injects directly into the port like stock?

Mark

Mark,

just to cut down on the fab work (I cant weld aluminum..yet) I buy the TWM's with the injector bosses/fuel rails.


B

Hey hey.. Alfred

It is sitting on top of a car to be installed sometime this week. The donor/test car puked an alternator this weekend and I need to do that first.

Soon. Very Soon.


B

we can always talk it over with beer and bretzels

i'm holding myself back on a lot of issues and posts/comments, cauze it doesn't really belong here ...
Andy

I know you are holding back. Just dont hold your breath that any of this will change. We would have to live on the moon and invite NO one.


B

as long as i can take my 914 with me ...

Thanks, Brad. I look forward to reading the results.