So many may have seen my progress thread about the beast - it is about 5 different colors right now. I would really like to rattlecan the thing matte black for now, but worry that if I do, I will have to sand it all back off when I later decide to finish the body work and paint it 2-stage matte black later.

Would I need to sand rattlecan paint back off of everything, or can I just maybe scuff it up and apply filler/primer/paint over it without having a possible later issue of the final paint peeling/falling off??

Current paint scheme I wanna go one color so I can get a better idea of how the car "looks" - all the different colors makes it hard to visualize the final product whereas rattlecan would solve that problem.

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Good Question and I hope NOT to hijack, but add on your same rift:

I have a similar Question regarding the primers I'll be using in prep for painting the car. I have several spots I'll need to grind out and weld in patches. This will most likely occur over many months before I am ready to bring to paint shop. Will "rattle can" primers cause trouble with the finish as applied by body shop down the road?

Same question about "Bondo"...

Basic Answer is yes, it will cause problems.

As for painting the car flt black - I wouldn't do it with a rattle can. You will have to sand it all off to ensure you don't get any reaction and good adhesion. The top coats will only be as good as what's underneath.

Brian, same answer, but with primers you could probably get away with it if you use a quality primer. If you have access to a compressor and spray gun, simply use good primer and sand it later.

For filler, just use good stuff and good primer over it and it shouldn't be a problem.

PM me with more definitive questions / answers.

Matt

tim,

i like your idea. where did you get it? LOL

will look super sinister on that

thanks guys - I wanted to rattlecan this thing flat black for a few years (had the original body work done back in about 1999) and the guy told me if I do I would have to sand it all back off to get a solid base again. And I have seen another thread somewhere else where Matt replied about paint - so I have to believe you are both right in that it would look good for now but be a complete PITA later...

I am going to acid dip the car and chassis later, so I don't care about the steel parts obviously, but having to sand all that fiberglass again would suck. Decisions, decisions... I will probably break down and rattle can it for now and hate myself a year later

Why not prime it flat blac?

I primered mmine with a cheap gun from harborfreight [On sale $15 i think] and bought good primer and mask from paint store $100. Results as expected. pm me if you want any more info. Oh yeah, i bought a cheap 5 hp compressor for the gun at Autozone for 150. seemed ok for the job. I wil not attempt a final coat with this set up, but wanted a one color car. see avatar.

Dan

hmmm, you both have a good idea I suspect. I have a compressor, and thought about getting a decent gun down the road to try my hand at primering/bodywork anyway... maybe just get some decent primer and gun/water trap and go for it in the garage. $100 for paint/tape isn't bad as a few rattlecans add up pretty quickly anyway.

If you do rattle can it though... Touchups will be really easy.

As with anyhting thing else, if you don't do the prep work, it will show.

Zach

Rattle can it with lacquer....lacquer thinner will take it right back off.
Hell of a mess to clean, but it will work.
Same with the primer, make sure it's lacquer.

Lacquer is compatable with the "proper" primer...but I don't know dick about water-based paints.

Enamel will cause all kinds of shit to happen, don't use it.

hmmm, now didn't think about that. Gotta see if I can find lacquer rattlecan stuff - don't know if there are issues with finding that in CA or not. Wow, good thread so far for sure and I appreciate everyone's input.

Found this deal on Harbor Freight.com

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/disp...temnumber=93305

seems like "too good to be true" $120 on sale for $40. Whadda you guys think?

OK, I have used that exact same gun, my brother had one, it did an OK job on wood (clear lacquer, $17K kitchen cabinet job) but I don't think I'd use it for finish work on a car.

But, that would be a better choice then at least you can shoot it with a proper 2-part primer.

Looking at that car make sure you get some wax & grease remover and wash it good before ANY paint goes near it!

something like Dupont wash "n" wipe 4105S

DO NOT USE LACQUER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is 70 year old paint technology. It is not acceptable with any paint systems. More paint problems on old cars are due to lacquer than anything else. IMHO, you are better off leaving cheap primer under the paint than having the chance of lacquer anywhere.

Sorry for ranting, but myself and two other people have spent around 20 hours in the last three weeks trying to get a lacquered 914 back up to looking good. You wouldn't believe all the work it takes. I have more lacquer stories too.

Matt

Tim,

A great dilema for sure and one I experienced. "Cheap" out or do it right one time. My metal formed fenders began to rust but I was told I'd have to strip to paint if they were primered months prior to paint. Primer is porus so don't ever leave it that way and exposed. If you do a temporary paint job, your prep will be doubled. Modern paints have time sequence and material compatibility requirements. With the high cost of materials and labor it's costly to screw this up or experiment with different brands...

My humble opinion is...

If you are a concourse oscar myer.... Disregard this post.

If you need to save money and have more time than dollars.
The following MAY serve you. (Has me)

Here is one more CHEAP AND SOLID OPTION.

Thats is using Rust Oleum primer and Rust Oleum PRO-Paint.

note: READ THE DIRECTIONS. DO EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS OR GO TO THE MANUFACTURERS SITE TO GET EXACT DATA FOR APPLICATION.

That goes for any paint you aren't familiar with.

The best part is: You can buy all your painting supply's at Home Depot.

No matter where you are, you can buy touch up paint.

It's stupid cheap. And touch up is relatively EASY...

If you can borrow or rent a high end HVLP or LVLP gun. You will be way ahead of the game.

You will also need oil and water seperators. GOOD ONES...!!!!!!!!
or you will be in a world of shit.

And it comes in many colors. Like Black...!!!!
NOTE: If you want flat black. Just add a compatible flattening agent to the paint.

There are many threads on the net of exactly how to apply, thin, sand and polish these particular paints.


Most of the fellas have no idea how good this paint is. Much better than you would expect. And how durable it is.

Many a round "D" round car has been painted with this paint.
And you can clear coat it and really make it shine... Yes really.

Can I make it look like a high end paint job. Pretty dam close. It's all about step sanding. (clear coat is needed for best shine)
Race cars don't need a clear coat. Too much hassle to touch up.
(And I am lazy)

NOTE: You can use 3M finishing film on a DA instead of blocking the final coat. It's fast and ya don't use water.Then again. If you are going flat black.
(Rat Rod Look)
Ya might NOT want to sand it smooth anyway. Cause the sanding will start to polish the paint.

The other option is John Deere tractor paint.
Also known as IMPLEMENT PAINT.
Can buy it at any farm equipment parts store.
(Caterpillar yellow rocks..!!!)

Many of the flat black rat rods you see at shows and in magazines are painted in John Deere flat black. It's cheap. And sprays easily. (if thinned correctly)

Works like the Rust Oleum paint. And is even more durable, easy to apply and can withstand the odor coming from Aarons feet or Zs ass. Now that staying power my friend....!

Note: Both of the above paints are fairly high in Solids. (I know)

Therefore if you try to spray a tac coat, then immediatly lay on a thick coat. It will run worse than Howard running from Slits on a casadores night in the woods.

So you have to build coats.
3 coats will cover that Teener better than a piece of duct tape over Britt's keyboard hand.

And in fact. That is exactly what i would do, (and have done)
if I had a track car or an average street car.

Especially if I didn't want the car to rust.
And someday down the road. Put a high end paint job on the car.

Keep it simple and repairable.

So thats my .02 worth.

Clayton

When all else fails. Auto Body 101 Forums




Now.... Back to the cave......................

Before i forget.

This is a link to the worlds longest thread about the world famous 50 dollar paint job.

The original $50.00 paint thread.

This is where it started I think. I have read all the posts since it started.

It is so full of trial and error, bad assumptions, incredible work, stupid people, great guys, superb end results. (note: using a roller for application) etc.

If ya have a couple a hundred hours to kill..... it's a fun thread.

Regards,
Clayton

What Clayton said. I have read and re-read that $50 paint job thread and am in the process of getting a front hood and a rear trunk lid to test this out on. Again, more time than cash for me too

I'm betting it wasn't rattle can lacquer but rattle can Enamel, if it was Lacquer it was some kind of 2-part paint.
BTW i've seen some places selling what is labled lacquer and it is enamel.

What do you think old-timers have been using for guide coats for decades?
Black rattle can lacquer.

Again I have no clue what it does to the water-based crap.

Lots of people do lots of different things. If you want my opinion, the only place for lacquer products is on someone else's shelf or on someone else's car.

A story: Guy buys old European sports car. Spends $1 million plus restoring. Loads it on jet to fly to Concours in US. Takes it off the plane to find paint cracked and falling off. Guess what kind of paint?

Matt

I think that statements a bit out of line. Most big automakers are using waterborn, paints. the only parts of the system they use that is solvent based is the clearcoat which is urethane. Remember water is the universal solvent

Ive almost completed respraying my 911 using water based (waterborn) primers, surfacers, and color coats. The only nastiness I had to work with was the urethane clear, and with that I got a LOW VOC product.

Im totally sold on the waterborn stuff, sprays like the old stuff, and cleans up with soap and water.

I used Autoair Colors for the color coat. They have tons of candies, pearls, translucent, opaques, etc to chose from. If I had more imagination my car would be more than just blue now.. Thats a project for next spring though

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You're missing the point of the poster...he wanted something cheap that he could rattle can on. I never said this was right, I said it was something that would come back off with thinners. If he did it with enamial he have all kinds of issues.



I'd say this is an urban myth, anyone who would spend a mil on a resto and use lacquer to do the paint would have to be a total fuchnuckle. No resto guy of that caliber would let him do it.

Besides many moons ago I painted a coffee table with 12+ coats of nitro-cellulose lacquer and it cracked (like crazy), but not a single chip fell off. Learned right then that on wood you use only one coat of sealer and 2 coats of NC lacquer.
Guess what I use on wood to get that deep plastic look? automotive clear.



Sorry, bad choice of words, I don't even think we have it up here, then again I've never asked.
The thing that get me about water-based is some people think that means you don't need a mask on to spray it. Also I can't see how it's better for the enviroment if you clear it with urethane...that stuff is just nasty. Looks good but I can't stand it.

[quote][quote name='Mark Henry' date='Sep 26 2006, 12:47 PM' post='781205']
You're missing the point of the poster...he wanted something cheap that he could rattle can on. I never said this was right, I said it was something that would come back off with thinners. If he did it with enamial he have all kinds of issues.

[quote name='Matt Romanowski' post='781148' date='Sep 26 2006, 03:21 PM']

A story: Guy buys old European sports car. Spends $1 million plus restoring. Loads it on jet to fly to Concours in US. Takes it off the plane to find paint cracked and falling off. Guess what kind of paint?

Matt
[/quote]

I'd say this is an urban myth, anyone who would spend a mil on a resto and use lacquer to do the paint would have to be a total fuchnuckle. No resto guy of that caliber would let him do it.

Besides many moons ago I painted a coffee table with 12+ coats of nitro-cellulose lacquer and it cracked (like crazy), but not a single chip fell off. Learned right then that on wood you use only one coat of sealer and 2 coats of NC lacquer.
Guess what I use on wood to get that deep plastic look? automotive clear.[/quote]
I got it from the horses mouth. I can show you lots of bad lacquer paint jobs on very nice / expensive cars. Some people truly believe in using what was used when cars were made.

It would be a quick way, but a bad one IMHO. Better off using regular primer and sanding it all again later. Thinking about it and the caliper of the car, if it was mine, I would finish it off know rather than later. But to each his own. I can understand what he is doing.

Matt

Then look at my post after he saw the cheap gun

cool, good discussion all around. In fact, I kinda like the sound of that John Deere stuff, so I will check into that too. The car will unfortunately not be done with a show quality finish in the end as track cars get chipped to after just the first day out. So maybe a little more planning, take some time to go thru that other thread, get a gun and a "cheap but good" paint and have at it

My overall intentions for the car was to have it nice and straight bodywork wise, but paint it "good at 15ft" but much closer might insight laughter. I would really love to put a great paint job on this car and have it look great, but that money will be money overspent at the next track event...

I like seeing the controversy over the lacquer stuff - to me doesn't mean any one guy is right or wrong, but if there is a point to be argued, then I will stay away from it altogether. I think you are all right (and what I intended to to anyway) implying I should leave it the ugly duckling until I am ready to buy a gun and take some time to do it right. I knew it, just didn't want to hear it

I'd shoot it with solid colour urethane...nason stuff is cheap, tough, looks good and you could put a better paint on it one day.

[hijack]



Thats easy, if your using a 4 step solvent based paint system, (sealer.surfacer, color,clear). Then you replace 3 of the 4 steps with a waterborn system. You will release 75% less solvent into the atmosphere, and your personal exposure is greatly reduced as you clean the equipment with soap and water, instead of thinner.

Yes you still should wear a respirator with the waterborn stuff unless you want rainbow lungs

[/hijack]

This is what my car looked like a few months ago. A number of different finishes and colors. The first step to tie it all together and make it uniform is to apply a 2K sealer, which will hide all the underlying colors, then do all your bodywork, then surfacer, color, clear, etc.

If I were the original poster, Id degrease and clean the bodywork, then shoot it with a 2K sealer, (dark for dark colors, light for light colors). This will give a blank canvas, and make it easier to envision how the graphics etc will look.

Dont waste your time with rattle can stuff



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Porsche uses waterbased paints on their 997's (atleast they say they do in the sails brochure)

Here's the answer to the removable paint job. Might get pricey for the whole car.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=61241

Tim - Nice job and great looking car. I haven't used any of the water based, but it looks awesome.

Jim - Some 993 colors were water based.

Mark (and others) - I think you have a good idea. Get some cheap fleet paint and spray it. I know that SEM has some decent stuff in JD Green and Yellow. Wouldn't be hard to find a flat black.

Matt

All priming should be done with a compatible product that the paint manufacturers will allow with their paint system. All DTM, direct to metal primer, has to be self etching to adhere to the bare metal primed. There are some universal primers which are available at most car paint suppliers. Alot of states are using water based, "acrylic paints" due to new federal reguilations, which are not compatilble with rattle can VOC, volatile organic compound, products.

Investigate bro!

so I am just about blind from reading that $50 paint thread and not even half way thru it Even so, that is a really interesting thread and the guy with the charger is my freakin' hero at this point Really, really has me thinking about trying it on the beast. I am going to replace the hood with my perfectly straight hood and might just experiment on the hacked one. If I could get a cheap-a$$ way of painting it that looked pretty good and was somewhat durable, I am all for it.

I recommend checking out that thread for shits and giggles at minimum. Definitely sounds like the way to go for a race car...

The reason laquer is used on certain restorations, is the quality that you can get with laquer. Urethane can not touch the final finish of laquer. DUrability on the other hand is another matter. No matter how you polish urethane it will still have a grain to it. Laquer can be polished out completely.

TimT how much per gallon are you paying for Auto Air paints? I have heard they are extremely expensive.

Tim don't cheap out on the finish. You will be very disappointed. I think Sikkens or Glasurit can tint primer to whatever color you want. Do not shoot laquer based primer with the intention of covering it with urethane base and clear. It won't come out well.

Please no rattle can. You won't ever get it right. You will end up with dry spray streaks. I have thinned Rustoleum with mineral spirits and it came out pretty nice. That stuff can be picked up at Home Depot or Lowes.

From what I have seen on the web, a gallon of Auto Air Runs $150 -$200 a gallon for color, depending on which finish -

I read most of the $50 paint thread...pretty interesting. I thought you didn't want to sand a lot?? They KEY to that cheap roller job was tons and tons of color sanding to remove any and all streaks, pimples, and orange peel. I hope you do try it and report back

Wasn't it mentioned in the $50 paint thread that the secret to rustoleum is fish oil; and that fish oil will make any subsequent paint job very difficult without doing something like acid dipping the chassis?


Reading with interest.

My wife's 95 golf, $400 canadian paint job, so say $350USD and the red colour adds about $50 to the price of the urethane Nason paint.
5 days from start to finish.
Wish I had a before pic...this car was a bit of a rust bucket.

My buddy, a local dealer, said he could now get $6K for my $1500 golf shitbox.

Nason is not bad stuff. I have used the clear on wheels and it holds up great. I have two quarts of it here now to do a couple of fenders for the Cervix.

I don't like the Nason base, but other than the reek I was impressed with the finish of the Nason urethane. Slight bit of orange peel but that almost looks factory and it shines like crazy.
Down side is I've heard it's almost imposable to blow in a repair, but on this car I don't care.

If you’re an amateur painter this stuff is great to shoot...you can just pour the snot to it and it doesn't run.

I don't specifically recall reading that post in there, but I do recall hearing said rumor about Rustoleum and that you can't paint over it with anything else. I dunno - I started skimming that thread as it is around 40pgs long and my eyes were bleeding last night at 10pm and I was only at pg 30. However, that guy in Canada claims he has painted over it in the past without issue...

I am considering this as, frankly, it is a race car and satin black isn't shiny anyway (the big benefit to nicer paint jobs is lustre - I don't need a $5K satin finish ) and I am thinking about trying this...


The sanding is really the only thing holding me back But by my first post, I meant I really didn't want to take a few hours to rattlecan, then cause me to spend days sanding my fiberglass completely back to the coating to do a final body and paint (in other words create work for myself later based on the whim of having a single/crappy car color). If I am going to paint the car "for good", then it is a bit different story as it is part of getting "the" paint job, not some temporary coating.

I just think the guy is pretty cool/resourceful for coming up with a clearly tedious, but cheap and easy to fix paint job for a car he slides around on gravel roads like the Duke boys. Sounds a lot like a race track to me since those sticky tires on the car in front of you throw rocks like crazy.

Course, could be cocky and say I don't have to worry as my car is so fast no one is in front of me but then I wake up and realize I am running dead last

Auto air isnt really very expensive..

Depending on what color, or whether you get mtallics, or pearls affects the price. The blue for my car cost $38/qt.

to paint my car I used the following

3 qts AutoAir @ $38 = $114
1 pt. AutoAir @ $18 = $ 18 (extra for spots and touch ups)
2 qt clear base @ $32 = $ 64 (Southern Polyurethanes Universal SPI)
2 qt clear actvator @ $26 = $52

total not including primers $248

Nason or Kirker are about the same cost, however a premium brand would easily be 3-5 time the cost.

Also with Autoair you dont need any activators.

I found a guy locally that does some impressive custom painting, and he uses Autoair. So I figured Id try it on my 911. So far Im extremely happy with the results. Although I can see the carbon fiber weave through som eof the finsih, even though I applied surfacer, and blocked all the panels.

Hahaha I sound like an infomercial

The best CSOB alternative.
Roll on the marine polyurethane, first coat in process:
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nuther:
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I just read 3 pages of the $50 paint job and have a headache.

I don't get it. Everyone can agree that the overall quality is primarily in the prep prep work. If we say you have a 1000 hours in a car, it's probably 900 in body work. The final 100 is the painting, wet sanding, and polishing.

So, if I'm going to do all the prep work right and get it to the point were it will look really nice, why skimp when you get to the paint? It's not *that* expensive to use real paint.

I'm getting some aspirin......

Matt - the Charger guy makes the point that if you have access to a gun and the room to do it, then use that for a better finish. His whole thing was "if you have more time than money".

So, spending 1,000hrs of your time to do the body work is figured into what he is saying - you can buy body filler and sandpaper pretty cheap and spend lots of time on the prep. Then, for a cheap $50, you can buy roll-on paint supplies and lay 6-8 coats with a lot of sanding after each 2 coats. Again, time v. money.

btw, he also says if you have a beater and just want to paint it, screw the bodywork, rough the existing surfaces whether it be paint/filler/primer/bare metal and roll away.

In my situation, my time is worth something to me, but the paint isn't because I will beat the crap out of it on the track. So I saw cheap, but ain't too stoked about the time commitment. That said, my time is worth the $700-$1,000 it would cost me to have the car prepped and painted by a "cheap" shop to just chip it back off. If I were going to only street drive this car, then definitely I would read the article out of interest, but I would pay the money and have a quality paint job done.