My engine is now out and since I’m mechanically impaired, I need some opinions. Forgetting about cost for the moment, which is better for the car and for the long run – a new engine or a rebuild? My mechanic, who I trust, says I need to replace the piston rings, oil pump and oil cooler. The heads are not great. Should they be rebuilt, reconditioned, or buy new ones? Don’t know about the cylinders yet, as he hasn’t taken the case apart yet. The engine mounts are also not great. Sorry, but I can’t provide pictures, don’t have a digital camera.

How important is it to have the original engine number?

I'm prepared to pay whatever is the best way to go. Any advice you can give is appreciated.

I'd have it completely rebuilt, and I'd replace all the iffy stuff. (mounts, ect..)

There are machinists who specialize in head work, other members may know someone near you.

I love your car.



M

On a car that old, aint no such thing as a "new" engine. You will have to rebuild the old with new parts or reworked old parts.

Can't remember if you bought a 6 or a 4 banger. Different rebuild approach/sources depending on engine type.

Most of the things you listed are fairly straightforward- oil pump, cooler, rings, mounts, rings. T4 heads get sent out (Californiay) for a good job.

Engine numbers are nice, that way I can tell which one is mine.

Ken

Miles,

Stay away from my cat with that pencil....

Ken

Why rebuild rather than new? I'm leaning towards rebuild, but am curious.

You've never seen my car, have you?

It's a 4, 1.7 Litre.

In person I've never seen your car...

Just a pic of you backing out of a driveway

I'ts been over 30 years since I've lived in Maine so my chances of seeing it recently are slim....

Ken

Joan, I am really sorry to hear it is terminal. There are wiser heads than mine to give you an answer (start with Brad). The engine number is not a big issue but you should retain a 1.7 fuel injected engine in my opinion (she has a VERY original '71 with about 100,000 total miles). Not sure there is any choice but to either buy a rebuilt engine (I don't know where you would get one) or have your mechanic rebuild yours. Rings are not enough. It should have new pistons and cylinders, at the least, and the heads should be rebuilt. The issue for your mechanic is whether or not to "split" the case to check and replace bearings and the cam. Others on this board may have opinions on that. The "top end" should be rebuilt for sure. Here's a pic of "Tangerine Dream".

Here's a pic of the "patient".

Here kitty kitty..

I wanted your car, before you wanted your car... that sounded Biblical, I am like Charlton Heston, or something.

That car is so orange.

Have your motor rebuilt, mostly because you have to get one that is rebuilt, it's the one that goes with your car, and it's a 'somewhat known' core. If you buy a mail-order engine from someone really great, nobody is going to have a major cow either.



You need a V9, with a 999.9 transaxle, and 12 cylinder brakes, with FM, and Hi-Fi!

I am really glad you got the car, and you want to make it nice.



M

Except for the heads, there wasn't anything listed that is a major pain to do.

If it needs pistons and cylinders that might be a problem. Not sure, but I believe 1.7 P/C sets are No Longer Available.

With that many miles, i would split the case and do a total rebuild if you are going to the trouble of pulling the heads/cylinders to swap the rings.

If you want a bulletproof rebuilt engine, Jake Raby can do it. He isn't cheap but his quality/workmanship are legendary.
He also can add about 50 % more power too..

Ken

One more thought Joan, I think you should quiz your mechanic to be sure he is very comfortable with rebuilding your engine. If he seems less than confident, I would consider having a rebuilt shipped to him for installation. Again, not sure of a source (Raby is certainly one). Regardless, stay with stock 1.7 and FI. There are aftermarket P&C's which will fit.

Joan,

Here is a link to Jake's website.


http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm


Ken

Joan. Have someone go thru the whole engine. Dont let him re-ring it and fix the heads. Its really not that much more to have everything checked out and all new bearings and installed.

And FYI: we can buy new heads from Porsche/VW. You can still get 2.0 heads.


B

I don't really think it's terminal, after all the surgery is done, the car will probably outlast me.

As for splitting the case, I may have misunderstood, but thought he had to do that to check the cylinders.

By having a rebuilt shipped, does that mean it's a new engine to the car and won't have the original case and number?

Gawd Brad,

How much do those heads go for?

Their weight in gold?

Good thing I've got a pair for my next engine.

Ken

He doesnt have to split the case unless he uses all new rod bearings/main bearings/cam bearings.

This is not good. I hate to see people spending money on a 1.7 when a 2.0 rebuild runs about the same in price.

Anyway. You have a lot of options. I know Chris Foley is up in the Northeast somewhere and frequents this BBS. You may check with him on doing a rebuild. You could also check with Rick Deman. I know he is up north also near you.

I personally say: have that engine gone thru. Keep the same block.


B

Joan,

Once the engine is pulled and the heads removed, you can pull and check the cylinders too.

You go into the case for main and rod bearings and camshaft/cam followers.

Some mass production places just ship you an engine and most have bad reps for shipping junk. If your engine isn't trashed (blown up) a good mechanic can rebuild it, and you get your good parts back in tiptop condition. Not many good rebuilders. Shop with care and advice from this board.

Ken

Well there is no such thing as a new engine these days, but it is quite easy to obtain a fresh long-block that is ready to go and all you have to do is change over the sheet metal, FI, exhaust and the other stuff that hangs from the engine.

The way materials have improved over the past 30 years you can actually end up with a better engine by rebuilding it than you got from the factory when it was new. A rebuild is certainly not something to be afraid of.

The key is to have the work done by someone who really know what they are doing. I did my own rebuild on my son's 1975 Bus which is essentially the same engine (at least in terms of the work involved in rebuilding). I took the case and heads to Competition Engineering (in Tempe, AZ) because they have a very good reputation as a machine shop and because the car was in Phoenix so it was close. I worked with them to identify what components should be refreshed or replaced, what choices I had , and why I needed to do certain things that I thought might be optional (like replacing the cam followers so they matched the material of the cam). In the end I also paid them to build the long-block for me because I just did not have time to do it myself.

If your mechanic isn't comfortable or knowledgeable with Type IV engines, then I would recommend a similar approach. He can obviously unbolt all the stuff to get it down to just the heads, pistons, cylinders and case (unsplit). At that point it can be shipped off to a reputable engine builder for the rebuild with instructions to ship back the finished long-block.

Now, given that it is a 1.7L you may have some options that will boost your displacement and power without giving up your stock fuel injection. I'll leave it to others here (who have more knowledge on such things than me) to comment on what those options might be.

Regardless of whether you stay stock or beef it up a little, you won't regret a rebuild if it is done by the right shop.

you've had great advice so far, let me provide some additional perspective...

yes, there are no 'new' engines. it's just a matter of what you start with, and what you keep.

it's possible to do a 'top end' and with so few miles on the bottom end, it's probably the thing to do - especially if you can get new cylinders that will slip into the case spogots - or if your original cylinders and pistons are still in service limits. the traditional wisdom says if you're removing the cylinders from an aircooled engine, you should replace the rod bearings since they're only a little most in cost and effort. others with more T-IV experience will chime in on that point, i'm sure ...

heads - without cracks - can easily be freshened with a valve job. replacement stock-spec heads shouldn't be 'too' expensive...

the case does not come apart to remove cylinder heads, cylinders, pistons, or rods. examing the rod bearings will give you some insight into the probably condition of the mains and cam bearings.

bad engine and transmission mounts are common on cars of this age, and not expensive.

how important is it -to you- that you retain the same block (case) ? if you won't be trying for National concours wins, the only factor is resale value, and i don't get the feeling you're looking to resell any time soon. i think it's 'nice' to have a numbers-matching car - but if - for instance - the block were damaged somehow there'd be no question - replace it without a moment's doubt. it's just another car part - keep it if it makes sense, replace it on the same basis ...

A New engine based upon your engines is the way to go.
Forget patch ups
Forget band aids

Open the wallet once and be done.

I have 4 slots left before I'm booked for the winter. It doesn't get any better than this!

damn, thats a longblock.....still has a crappy cam grind, still has factory balancing(which sucks)

I guess I better go up on prices, my complete engine is only 4,500! Thats with powdercoated tin and dyno tuning!

Place the order for that 2.0, I'll take 10, ask how many they have left.


M

There is another option I haven't seen brought up...maybe I missed it. What about just buying a USED 1.7L from someone who is upgrading to a 2.0L or is parting out a car?

Sure, it could be an unknown engine, but crap, it won't cost very much and the car will be on the road again. Then she can take her time and have the "original numbers" engine rebuilt at a later time, at her leisure.

Just another option from a cheap bastard.

Cheap bastard? You just said buy a motor, and rebuild one, you are my kind of cheap!

That is how I start with one, and get to three! Three is the magic number, and triggers the sell emotion.



M

Did I say that??!?? Oh...I guess I did... Ok...the option would be to just put the original engine under the house. Then when you sell the house, don't notify the buyer that the engine is under there.

How's that?

ROFL

"Honey, does it smell like oil in here?"



M

Since winter is almost here, I've got plenty of leisure time to get the car fixed up right for forever. And as Jake says, "open the wallet once, and be done."

I'm not going to race, show, or AX. I'm just going to drive it until I can't drive anymore. However, a little more power would be lovely.

I'll print out all this and take it to my mechanic and discuss it with him. I'm pretty sure he can handle it and if he can't, he'll tell me. I'm leaning towards using the original case, but have to tell him not to split it open for the nonce.

Thanks for all the input. I'll keep you posted on the status of "the patient".