I like Tom. Great guy. Got to spend time with him while I lived in NorCal.. but it doesnt mean I'm going to lay down for him at an AutoX..LOL

I have the chassis and the LSD gearbox. I dont even have to drive (I'll put a SCCA National Champ in the seat if need be)

What kind of HP/TQ will it take to beat him. I'm figuring the course is going to be VERY fast since it is being held here in SD.


Thoughts on this?

This will probably be my last "hurrah" with owning a 914 race car.


The car is GUTTED. No windshield.. very little to NO steel in it. Goodyear R430's on 7's+8's. Full cage. It will end up with alum floor pans with small tubes. Shifter/seat/steering wheel. 3 gallon tank.


B

Brad, Britain and I looked his car over fairly closely at Parade this year. Old bushings that are cracking, basic suspension. Really big front and rear tires(especially the rears), really big rear wing. Car is completely stripped. Fiberglass body panels all around. I forget which /6 he has, but it is "built".

Put on a really big wing, really big tires and lots of HP and torque.

Then drive real fast.

Good luck.

Gary

Can you get an idea on what the course will look like or what the surface will be.

Surface will dicate what tyres to run.
Course would influence gearing & torque / hp curve needed.

If course is unknown i'd vote for big torque over hp, to get you better scoot outta turns.

If you get over 200hp work on aero &downforce, but a regular wing ain't gonna cut it below 70mph. So either go for FSAE huge wing, or a straight-up spoiler.
Clean-up every seam, tape down joints / shut lines, weld doors shut, use aero tubing on leading edges.

Raise suspension pickup points to lower body without loosing damper travel.
Usual suspects on bearings & some nice tunable dampers wouldn't go amiss.

HTH.

Doesn't Tom run a 3.5 engine? (I assumbe based off a 3.2)

For AX like that, I would think it would have to be big and torquie. Peaky doesn't work that well. I did well driving a 2.2T against the S's in the class.

I know the surface VERY well and yes I'm betting I can get my hands on the course design WELL before others.

I could move the suspension points up easily while the car is apart. I have done enough of them in the past.. this would be a no brainer for me.

I have enough ratio's sitting around that I could build a torquish engine and gear accordingly.

Wings.. damn.. I dont have access to anything bigger than GT3RSR. I'm not a newbie when it comes to splittlers and wings.. but low speed downforce IS something new to me.

I'll call me friend Dave Ferguson and see what he did to win Parade in his 9146. I know he used an underbody tray that SUCKED the car to the pavement.

I *think* Tom is actaully running a 3.8, but I wont swear to it.


B

Thoughts are great, but a car, or cars, based upon real math are better.

Briefly there are two approaches:

First you need a lightweight car (+/-1600lbs) that has all or most of the suspension tricks, including a full cage, so that the suspension works.

You need either a 3.6 (6) or a big well built 4. The 3.6 will need to be at least 300HP to the rear wheels, with tires to match. This configuration would probably be more like 1800lbs and change.

The 4 would need to be at least 200hp, with the same amount of torque, but can probably run cantilevered tires/slicks.

Great brakes, of course.

LSD is a must.

Raised suspension points are good.

And of course you need drivers. Maybe this is the most important element as Tom is a national quality autoX driver.

BPR has more than one car that fits the above description and our 2007 plans are to dial them in and compete locally and at Parade.

OK. The chassis has 10's and 12's right now. I'll stick with those.

200hp T4 "check"

Even if I have to "borrow" an engine for the event.. LOL

I have the advantage of testing on the surface 8-10 times before Parade comes to town.

It will weigh 1600lbs NO problem (even if I have to fly Paul "Ury" in for some guidance)..LOL

I cant afford to run a "Hot" 3.6

I can have the chassis ready for powder coat in a few weeks...

B

Brakes:

It is 5 lug right now F+R with SC rotors. I could run a lightweight alum caliper on it.

I can see shocks being a big cost factor. I would want something with external canisters like Fordahl runs in the white 914. He mounts the canisters/adjusters under the dash so he can "adjust" them while in line.

I'll have to call the "Moton" guy and see if I work something out.



B

JRZ or what about the SRP fox rsr struts?

You need something with at least 2way adjustment. The SRP's are rebound only. I'm sure JRZ has "something" for rebound and bump.

Sucks. Bilstein is down the street from me. They are working on an external canister for Porsches.. but I dont think they are for the early struts.


B

hmmm....

what is tom running? just koni yellows?

look on ebay, i think SRP has a pair of JRZ's on there

no idea on adjustability....

also you wouldnt be able to use the rears (911)

but here is the JRZ shizzle

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911...sspagenameZWDVW

This sounds really dumb, but I remember TimT saying something about 911 rears on his car? I knwo they aren't supposed to work.

3.4 (5?)L twin plug, hi butterfly RSR MFI......show up with 200 hp & you'll be down 100 hp minimum. Looking the car over, there is nothing truely trick...WAG 1700-1900 lbs)...but it's damn fast and Tom has been driving it for years. He took to the high speed course at PIR like a duck to water. You'd better get an SCCA National champ (and a member of the PCA) that can do his magic within 3 runs cold...cause Tom can. One fella came close to him in a late 911 racin' vehical.......but this ain't horse shoes

I was thinkin that a cup car would blow everyone into the weeds on that PIR course (NO tight stuff)......I didn't see any Mods run...I was busy goin' sideways. & scratchin' my haid between runs.

i prefer the idea of of lightweight T4 contender... focus on unsprung weight and suspension (re)design. 200hp and a quick cable shifter. can you put the driver's seat in the middle of the car? frankly, i think an AX-only car could be pretty fragile -- i.e. if it doesn't break every once in a while, then it's too heavy.

In terms of aero, I believe that a lot could be learned from the Amod guys and from the F-SAE guys. The closer you can get to their paradigm, the quicker the car.

I seriously thought about putting 4 lug stuff back on the car to lighten it up.

I'm also thinking about SUPER wafe thin fiberglass where it doesnt need to be strong (think 908's/flying lawn chairs)

I can easily assemble my own ERP style front end..

Who asked about center seat?? I was involved with a center seat 914 back in 1994..LOL One of the 914club members in Mckinnie Texas owns it or owned it.

Light.Driver.Gearing.Torque.Low Drag Down Force.

Tarett will sponsor me/give me the sways..


B

Tom's car is very old school. Just check the '80s style body work. The motor started as a 3.6, don't know if it still is or has been massaged to 3.8.
If he ran the tires he ran at Marina a couple weeks before parade, they were at least 2 years old. Give Tom any car and he will be fast. I have seen him take one lap in other folks cars and beat the owners best time by a bunch....
Car has not been freshened in many years. I don't think it is all that light either.
Tom is not a subtle driver, HP and brute strength.

This is an interesting topic.

Motor...I agree 200 hp is giving it up before the green flag even drops. 4 or 6 doesn't matter if you're giving up that much power off the bat.

Brakes... Don't need gonzo brakes, just make sure that you've got some good SC brakes in REALLY god shape with some good pads. If you want ot get tricky, make swiss cheese out of the rotors to drop some of that all important rotational mass. Here's a picture from a top flight SCCA EP car...
Click to view attachment

Suspension... Yeah, all the goodies. JRZ or Moton would be the way to go, but even custom double konis are better than nothin', and cheaper to boot.

Shed the weight, cage the chassis (to whatever limit the rules place on ya). At least 10" wheels with slicks, forget the cantilevers.

Hired Gun... Yeah, a left coaster SCCA top dog for sure. I'm thinking Greg Fordahl would be the best bet. Heck, I'd wager Greg and his FP car could give TomP a run for his money even with the weight dissadvantage. Apart from that, I'd look at maybe James Gunn-Wilkerson (he's local to you, La Jolla, you must have seen him around in the black GT3). He'd need some practice time in the car, and he'd probably want to run it Nationals if it were really good. For that matter, you've got Chris Cox in NorCal who's fast in anything he gets into, and he knows how to drive fast, powerful, slick shod cars at an autox. And you've got Jeff Reitmier in NorCal as well, always a good bet to win when he shows up.

-Josh2

I would put my money on Jeff Reitmeir since he has won multiple national SCCA titles in a 914, and can read a course very quickly.

JP. the car that almost beat Tom this year at parade is a Sacramento region member. His car is an early 911 chassis with all fiberglass 993 body work. A purpose built TT/race car. Car was previously owned and driven by Matt Lowrance of Sporthause (Reno) Car has a 3.8L motor. It is VERY strong. It wasn't a bad showing since the present owner (Glenn Brooksby) hasn't AXed much in several years. And I don't think he had ever AXed that particular car much if ever, before parade.

Hey Brad:

I know a couple of SCCA nat champs and pro solo that have crossed over to PCA. One of them is used to putting brut power (Camero, Corvette, Turbo) to good use. The other takes an "under powered" (early 911) car and puts the smackdown on entire fields and looks completely calm doing it.

If this gets serious we can have a word with them to see if they're interested. They both might have their own ideas already though...

Later,
Kevin

Josh,

I work with James Gunn Wilkerson down here quite a bit on setups. He also helped me understand the Boxsters. He used to run one.

The reason I bring all this up.. I'm finishing a 2316 Raby combo this weekend and the owner of the engine asked me about beating TomP. I thought about it for a moment and thought I would run it past the "group".

Whomever drives.. I'll be the tire warmer... LOL

Tom's car is OLD SCHOOL I love it!! I promise he will have trouble with the semi rough surface here at Qualcomm. You have to show up with something soft in the tire arena to play down here. It is much like Candlestick when it comes to surface erosion and the such.

They like long high speed area's with some smallish SCCA stuff thrown in near the finish to slow cars down.


B

My money would be on Stacey Reitmer..LOL

Kevin,

we will chat the next time you are down. I'll try to put a plan together soon and see if I can drum up the funds to finish the car nicely. Right now it is a raggedy roller with 70% of what we need in place. The biggest hurdle is some of the fab work I need to do for the floors/shifter/seat mounting. Suspension I can handle and mounting of the body work. I cant paint.. so I need to round up a painter willing to make it look nice.

This car was destined to be a "914Club" AutoX car. Something we could let anyone drive on any given weekend. Open cockpit style.. Ginther windscreen. Luckily all the cage work is done. I'll have to add some smallish tubes for the aluminum floor section.


B

What do you mean Brad, "200hp T4 "check"

"Might have to borrow...."

You might be earning your PHD in Cavalier here, but if anyone can pull it off it's probably you.

Well, golly, Brad, guess who comes to check out the Parade course, has the local club run a serise of various cars around it... and gives advice.... since they have veto over the local club's layout it's wise to listen..... Not safe, too fast, yada.....Then makes a map to insure it's set up per the approved plan come Parade time.

When you figure that out, tell me about any advantage you have.

Hummm, who was that guy that won TTOD last time the parade was in San Diego in a 911 with a big motor? He was an SCCA champ too if I remember correctly, ran Goodyear canti-slicks, etc? The course at the "Q" will probably be a fast/horse power type of course and might even favor someone like James Gunn-Wilkinson in a prepared GT2 over a 914 or maybe the Fordhall's. If ANYONE is to get ready, they need to run with the SCCA from now on to get ready for the "3 runs per day" format instead of lots of laps to get ready!

Probably Jim Hayes running a 911 with a Matt Lawrence motor. Very fast car that handles and he could drive.

He was also an SCCA champ.

I have all his wheels.

Stacey is one quick shoe herself, I wouldn't laugh too much...

Funny story though... Shortly after I bought my 914, I went to an SCCA autox school to try and get familiar with the car around the cones. Wound up with Michelle Reitmier as my instructor. Why not? She's a National Champ in a 914 as well...So, here I am, driving my newly acquired Porsche around as close to the limit as I can, and here's a georgous, talented, racecar driving, blonde sitting next to me shouting out "faster! drive faster!"...

-Josh2

I'll let you use my car. Do whatever you want with it. I'll stick it in a box and FedX it to you on Monday.

You could get your car to under 1500 pounds pretty easy.

I know Tom is over 300HP and a joy to watch drive. The car is a handful on tight courses. He and Steve N duke it out quite regularly and even with his 130 or 140HP Steve takes his share of the cake.
Tom tells me he doesn't know too much about the cars build sheet so to speak. He bought it that way. I have heard that story before but he seems sincere about it. Sandy is no slouch in the car either.

That's about the same as he told me, as I recall.
He said that these days the MFI is worth more than the whole car
I think he said the engine is an RSR motor and that it had been freshened a few years back.....not sure about that, I was havin' a tough week.

Steve is a real gud driver and I can see his car is damn well developed. On a tight course I can see him giving anyone fits. He's also gud on the first 3 runs.....which use as a benchmark. If you go back & look at results from the various regions, Provasi shows his ability there.

It should be interesting. I already have my hotel room reserved and I am deciding which car to bring down. I just bought an '84 taildragger that looks showroom new in and out. 55K miles.

It isn't just tight courses that Steve gives fits on. Unless you really let the big motors use their legs he is still right there.

JP you remember last year when you came down for the Shriner's event? Steve beat all but one of the Corvettes and a couple of them were National Champions. Even then the guy only beat him by a couple hundredths. This was a pretty open course designed by SCCA guys who worship the Corvette and tolerate us others to fill their coffers...

Below is Steve's best time and here he is staged next to EJ Fontaine. This was a pretty open course and even EJ with his six couldn't catch Steve.

Put a 200 HP T4 in Andrew B's Smurf car. He is capable of beating Tom.

I assume you've found this stuff ain't as easy as it seems.
A car being "capable" and actually doing it are two different things.

Robby:
I remember being 2nd fastest 914 at the Shriners event. Steve kilt me.
That course was not a high speed course. The turns at this last Parade were faster than the longest straight at Mather.....top end of 3rd gear at the Parade.
Comparing the 2, Mather was tight. Not to denigrate Steve's efforts there, but he was way off Tom's pace. A 59 to a 54 IIRC. Steve made up for it by blowing us all into the weeds at the "After Parade AX".....a tight course....ORPCA style....short on cones but tricky. You'da liked it.

I think I would have loved it... I once designed a course that used only enough cones to fit in the back and passenger side of my 240Z because the guy who was supposed to haul equipment flaked. It was GREAT!
Checking the results you were the second fastest teener. I didn't mean to imply EJ was faster I just used him as a reference as I have ridden in the car and know how fast it is. Yours I have only seen at the start finish...
A lot of these large event courses tend to be mini-grand prix courses. I guess they feel they need to soothe the 911 crowd or sumpin... That works to Tom P's advantage.
I know what you mean about Steve and the taste of weeds. After I put in times good enough to be 5th overall with the BB Racer/Submarine at its first autocross with me on those nasty old Kumhos that Jim had, Steve got in the car and with my fat ass in the P-Seat he put in a time a second faster than my best. Take away the passenger and that is about a two second improvement on my time in my own car when he had never driven it... I was in awe.

Actually I find it easier than it seems most of the time. I'm always overwhelmed when I see all those cones. When I get out and start driving I somehow put everything together.

Andrew B has actually beaten Tom P' times on actual AX courses in Nor Cal. The Parade event was more like a short road course! So 200 HP would likely even playing field for posuer cross on a road course.

But come on JP, AX rates up there with amature bowling if you take it too seriously. Why anyone would want to build a PCA Parade winning car is sort of pointless to me. Yeah you can do it, but why?

At the 2000 parade in Sacramento one of the San Diego members spend huge amounts of time and money on things like big HP, close ratio gear box, GT limited slip, light weight and all. In the big run he actually had TTOD nailed but got a cone and it was said it was from some ground effects, not actually hitting it, BUT since they only had two or three workers for the whole, huge course, the cone counted! No TTOD. It is the driver.

Look at the first 3 runs. IIRC, Provasi had everybody by 2 sec.

As for finding it easy. It is....right till ya get up into the top end of the field. If you can get within .5 sec of Andrew or Steve, then come back & tell me how easy it is.
Then go to a National Tour event & do it in 3 runs.

Serious? The guy that bought the Wayne Baker car ...Mistak(sp?)... laid out a Parade course on his own dime ...SD Parade I think, set up his trans for a top speed of over 130 mph and appropioate gears below and still didn't win. He took out the 4 & dropped in a 3.6L. I think that is what John is talking about.

Top tier SCCA guys are as serious as a heart attack.... that's why they are top tier. Top line Pro Solo make gud money at it.

Why?....why not?....you got sumthin' better to do?

We may head down if we have the time, and if we are allowed the nitrous bottle.

really? last time i looked, it seemed that at best they would break even on their travel costs and get a set of tires.

Amature bowling is tough to break into top ranks too! But Pro Tour bowlers make more than Pro Solo drivers.

Are you running the nitrous again?

Most folks can do okay if they win here and there. A few though, can do very well on the Solo Tour. Go back a number of years, and look at Mark Daddio... He more than paid for the car he won with, in one year....

And now look at the winnings he got from the Revitup tour...

No, not everyone can clean up like that, but it _can_ happen.

-Josh2

Yes but only if you talk nice to Dave Hunt and only if you need dental work...

they could ask me for some but I doubt I would be inclined.
Nitrous in a Porsche just doesn't seem quite right, somehow.

I haven't been able to figure out how to get the face mask over the throttle body. You must have some ideas Rob.

Dave

Brad you should address driver/control issues. Making a 914 shift faster and making the driver more comfortable in the cockpit can go a long way towards making a car super fast. If your driver can climb in and think about nothing else but driving, not how the seat isn't straight, or the pedals to far away, etc, you can be faster than the competition.

Shifting still bugs me at times. 2 -3 is easy, but if you have to goto 4th which seems to happen at Corvette and PCA events at least once. In the heat of battle I have blow a shift. Which ruins a good run fast.

But Brad that could be solved with a DSG style tranny, or a tip. I would love a sequental. Clutch off the line and tap up and down for the rest. 914 shifter cart!!!!

I lose time with my 1st to 2nd shift. I have to "place" it 2nd not shift it into 2nd. One day I'm going to start in 2nd to see what happens.

Lets See Engine Torque / minimal weight = second gear Should be the 914 law of relativity. I launch with second gear on my Jetta at the auto-x