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bd1308
Damn this stuff is like greek.I have either a set of 2.0 bus heads I could rebuild, or 1.7L 914 heads and I'm just wanting something I could cruise with for 100k miles.

I understand these new valve seat installation methods are much better than stock, and i printed out len's pricelist and i'd need somethign like this.

1.7L 914 heads:

*Install Valve Seats ($30.00*8)=$240
*Install Valve Guides ($100*2)=$200

There arent any cracks on these heads that I am aware of (currently running them now, no problems)

Should I send them bare or with valves so the valves can be matched with the head?


I dont care about performance, I drive 65-75 and dont care how long it takes to get there, just as long as its reliable to 100k miles at least.

I wish I lived next door to someone who could be like look man, you need this done, and it'll be this much, and if you do it yourself with my machines you'll get it done cheaper or something to that effect.

b
bd1308
Well I have a set of good looking 1.7L heads I could use in my 914....

Like I said, I need someone to look at what I have and suggest something.

The bus heads may work, I may just slap em on my new bus to get it rolling while I build my 1.7L engine for my 914.
Chris Pincetich
I seem to remember Jake and Len talking about 1.7 heads on the "Budget Rebuild" IV Dimension radio show several weeks back, cause I have a 1.7 too, and they said that 1.7 heads are great and last forever and rarely crack or drop a valve seat or even need new seats a all. Chances are the 1.7 heads are good to go. Maybe you could post some high res pics here for critique.
beerchug.gif
bd1308
Hmm, well thats the thing. I loev the 1.7L engine, and so far ive been getting old 1.7L engines for little to no money to put in. I really appreciate the support I have gotten, but am starting to feel that I need to do my own work, and start paying up on this car.

I have a set at home, i'll post pics if I remember when I get home. I thought about running this engine until its abotu to lay over and then use my 1.8 block to build up a super nice 1.7L engine to put in, with the RAT 9550 cam and polished crank, with rod bearings installed, etc.

I think I have domed pistons too, which are supposedly are getting harder to find.
Bartlett 914
I think maybe you are too worried about dropping valve seats. I know this has happened before to you. This usually only happenes when the heads get too hot. Your first motor had that single carb and ran hot. I don't remember why the other blew. I think you just had a run of bad luck. There are an awful lot of motors out there that this hasn't and will never happen to them. Do a normal rebuild and only change the seats if necessary (cracked, badly worn or loose).
bd1308
Maybe I am a little paranoid about dropping seats, but in three engines that I have had, only one had problems, and that was from my stupidity plus the ignition timing being WAY advanced and from the single carb and trying to run it when gas flow was obstructed.

OK. So replace seats ONLY if they sit lower than the rest? I seem to recall that most of the time the seats usually just fall into the bore of the valve, not causing ultimate destruction.

I feel better smile.gif

I guess it all comes down to this: stock or not, if the temp doesnt go well over 400F, there shouldnt be any problems. I mean if a hippie can drive a bus for many miles without major trouble, I should be able to with all of the dwell meters and timing lights and CHT guages I have, right?
Bartlett 914
QUOTE(bd1308 @ Oct 17 2006, 12:50 PM) *

Maybe I am a little paranoid about dropping seats, but in three engines that I have had, only one had problems, and that was from my stupidity plus the ignition timing being WAY advanced and from the single carb and trying to run it when gas flow was obstructed.

OK. So replace seats ONLY if they sit lower than the rest? I seem to recall that most of the time the seats usually just fall into the bore of the valve, not causing ultimate destruction.

I feel better smile.gif

I guess it all comes down to this: stock or not, if the temp doesnt go well over 400F, there shouldnt be any problems. I mean if a hippie can drive a bus for many miles without major trouble, I should be able to with all of the dwell meters and timing lights and CHT guages I have, right?



Right on!

and far out!
bd1308
smoke.gif grooovy!
7TPorsh
QUOTE(Bartlett 914 @ Oct 17 2006, 01:47 PM) *

I think maybe you are too worried about dropping valve seats. I know this has happened before to you. This usually only happenes when the heads get too hot. Your first motor had that single carb and ran hot. I don't remember why the other blew. I think you just had a run of bad luck. There are an awful lot of motors out there that this hasn't and will never happen to them. Do a normal rebuild and only change the seats if necessary (cracked, badly worn or loose).


I was told by the PO that I am running a 2.0 block with 1.7 heads. Didn't make sense to me; still doesn't. I too want to do something with them.
G e o r g e
QUOTE(7T Porsha @ Oct 17 2006, 02:16 PM) *


I was told by the PO that I am running a 2.0 block with 1.7 heads. Didn't make sense to me; still doesn't. I too want to do something with them.



are you sure you just dont have a 2 ltr case with 1.7 internals?
Jake Raby
You should have taken advantage of Len's special product of the week from a few weeks ago.. If so for 550 bucks you'd have gotten a full rebuild including new seats,guides and the works.

BTW- Inspecting a set of heads can't be thoroughly be completed without an oven, cracks wake up at 300 degrees..
bd1308
sounds like a deal i missed.

but for what I was wanting to do, it would have been around 550 anyway.
JPB
headbang.gif Need I say more? biggrin.gif
Jake Raby
listening to my radio shows are the smart thing to do. 16 guys tok advantage of the deal and they got 10% off all the other valve train parts as well.. Then you have the guys that bought engine kits for up to 1200 bucks off a few weeks ago as well..

the deals will continue, just wait till I open up the "Blue light special" forum in a few days!
bd1308
I'll just slap something together, only this time it wont already have 70k on it.
Jake Raby
Trusting factory valve seats is just plain dumb.

I tried to keep from being so point blank, but I have to get the point across somehow.
bd1308
Then why are people still running on stock engines.
Jake Raby
Lets just say that stock seats are the only ones these days that fail.

if you see how many fall out with just having the heads flipped upside down in the oven and heated to 400F you'd never question why the seats being changed is so beneficial.

Keep in mind that we are talking heads that are sitting static in the oven, without having combustion pressure or vibration assisting them... Lift off the heads and seats are laying there, right where they fell out.

Stock seats that see over 400F can go at any time, some fuels and climates reduce the threshold by 50 degrees.
bd1308
OK! This is getting retarded.

You're valve seats handle something like 1200F temps. That's awesome, and kinda scary. If I get a cool-running cam and then run a stock head BELOW 400F, I shouldnt have any problems. SO you're telling me before you came around, engines always blew up after a short amount of time and always overheated and never worked? This is intresting, because I am good friends with a VW mechanic who has put together many engines, and never did do a watercooled conversion, or told someone to kiss off because the stock stuff wasnt 'trustworthy'

Am I being dumb for trusting stock seats? Maybe, or maybe I know that I need to keep an eye on my engine. Honestly Jake, do you want your engines running above 400F-500F either? Didnt think so. I'd love to have a discussion about this if I ever meet you, and if you'd like to contact me privately and request this deleted, I will.
Jake Raby
Its a safety factor...

The fact is the only thing that fails at 400F is the seats, and as stated they can fail at less than that due to their sintered material and the interferance fit the factory gave them THIRTY PLUS YEARS AGO!!

when a seat fails it can take everything else with it, especially if the keepers and retainer pops off of the valve..

No need to delete a thread, people need to read this and they need to understand that this is the primary killer of Type 4 engines and has been since its conception. The issues can be avoided and can be done cost effectively.

Keep the heads below 400F and hope that your luck holds.

Since then the heads have been heat cycled millions of times...
bd1308
Cost effective?

You call $550 (a steal at that) price effective for a new set of heads on a old engine? Oh and these 550 buck rebuilds are also based on thirty year old cores. So why market something you feel isnt adequate?
Jake Raby
They are Len's product- not mine.... I do not rebuild or utilize rebuilt heads on my engines.

I'll stop right here, this isn't going to benefit anyone any further because you already have your mind made up and its clear that it'll take a failure to change it.

Do as you wish, keep it cool and keep your fingers crossed that Klaus gave your seats a tad more crush than the rest..



bd1308
OK. Here's what I want to do:

New seats and guides on cores. I'm getting $240 per Len's pricelist and then guides:

it says $20 per pair...so i'm guessing its $40 for both heads? or $80 since I have four pairs of guides on the heads?
Jake Raby
everything is priced per pair..

When seats are instaled the guides must be installed as well, its part of the job..

At minimum do seats, guides and 4 new exhaust valves...
Allan
GO Britt!!!!!!!!! thumb3d.gif









Um, maybe I was thinking about Ron?


Anyway, GO Britt!!!!! thumb3d.gif
bd1308
i'm getting $320 for what I believe to be the correct allotment of unti prices on *BOTH* heads, MINUS valves.
914werke
Britt Slap those 1.7 heads on AS IS and go. thumb3d.gif

Jake Raby
sounds right.. Calll him and go over it.
anthony
FWIW, Len posted the other day that he is offering 914 club members an extra 10% off.

Personally, I wouldn't put any money into 1.7L heads. Get some 1.8L or 2L heads and build up a nice 1911 or 2056. Sure it will cost more but then you'll have a potent little engine that is good for the long haul.

Jake Raby
FWIW 1.7 heads are generally the best cores...
bd1308
he's already gone for the day i assume?
Gary#
smile.gif This is one of the best threads i've read in a while beerchug.gif
I've got a set of used 30 yr old heads 2.ohh's in the garage that i think need a little steel wool 2 clean some carbon & look pretty to bolt on & go.
---
Next time my wife's going to be gone long enough for me to get the oven up
to 400F - i'm gonna set them in there very gently & see what falls out... cool_shades.gif
Thx Jake!! & thx Britt - driving.gif
Jake Raby
Try it.. I'll say you'll lose at least one. It does stink the house up though..
bd1308
Jake, you say the 9550 on *STOCK* crappy heads makes the temp 325F at speed?

Thats below 400F in my book....
Bleyseng
That should be about right, Britt.

Why don't you just plain up the valve size to 42x36?? You want lower exhaust temps so the larger exhaust valve will help exhaust more exhaust. much mo'better.

Can't find the dumb pic of my stock 2.0L pic of a dropped intake seat thru the intake port, sideways. thumb3d.gif
bd1308
its all about money geoff.

it just seems like the stock method should still last 100k like it did in the 70s.

I mean have temperatures increased since 74?
bd1308
Hey, everything else aside, I'm not pissed off. I'm just scratching my head wondering why the things that worked in the 70s dont work now.

I mean I'd like to drive without worrying about head temps, and maybe Jake is right, but i'm just a hard headed SOB.
McMark
There is a reason that the Type IV has a reputation far and wide for dropping valve seats. Because it was really really common on stock engines with stock heads.
bd1308
Mark, thats the main reason for my post. I havent really heard much about dropped valve seats, mostly from busses and from 2.0 914s.

But then again, most people dont drive VWs enough to experience this.

Again, i'm being hard-headed here.

But am seeing why its important to spend some and get some nice heads done. For now though, I will build teh 1.7L I have and build a nice camper engine for my bus.
Bleyseng
I was only suggesting to not cheap out and try to do it so the motor works as best as you can afford. Who knows how long this motor will have to last you so later you won't be kicking yourself. alfred.gif BTDT
Bleyseng
QUOTE(bd1308 @ Oct 17 2006, 06:41 PM) *

mostly from busses and from 2.0 914s.


should be all bus engines....which is where most of the type 4 motors were used.
only 115k 914's
only 200k 411/412's

there 1.7 will be ok for the bus but I would build it to run as cool as possible!
bd1308
see thats what I was thinking of later....

Boy would I be pissed if I was stuck somewhere and the tow bill is $400+

sad.gif

I'll run this 1.7L out and then build a nice engine for my bus from Len.

Geoff, set me up with a bus combo, please?
bd1308
I have 1.7L heads I bought from Rich. They look only gently used, and was run just a tad rich, judging by carbon deposits.

and in the meantime, i'll build up the then-dead 914 1.7L engine with Len parts too.
Bleyseng
You have it with the 9950 cam and good heads with bigger valves.
bd1308
big valves on a bus?
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