Looking at two oil cooler thermostats and would like the "non club's" experiences, good or bad with Mocal v.s. Troutman.

Don't want to bias your input with what I currently have, or what I've heard, but would like some objective input from you guys who have used them....

Mocal
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Troutman
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Wondering about quality, reliability, options and/or ease of mounting, failures, etc.

Don't want to make a change without the benefit of everyone's experience!

Thanks in advance for your opinions...

I've been running a mocal for almost 4 yrs now without one problem at all.

Greg,

sorry.. not trying to hijack your thread.
but we run NO thermostat on the race car.
for weight and less obstruction.

brant

A thermostat is a good idea in ALL cases in my opinion. A big slug of cold oil can cause a leak in fittings, lines or an external cooler.......that being said.....I use MOCALs......I used a Troutman once. It was fine, I got it used on the car that I bought and it went on "Manfred" my 914/6 vintage racer that I never raced but sold.....

As to sources.....BAT Inc is the best around but out on the east coast.

If you need a -10AN Dave at GPR has one I returned as I ordered a -12AN and they shipped the wrong one. 800-321-5432 ext 502.

I like my Mocal.

-12's.


KT

I need to do this too. It's getting cool in the PNW.

I read a thread on PP a while back that suggested factory or Troutman, which uses the factory internals, b/c the factory still allows some flow even when cold, decreasing the stress on the cooler when first opening.

I like the looks of the Mocal for ease of splicing into my existing lines.

I've also had great results with the Mocal (-12) on my -6. I would mount it back by the engine though to minimize the length that you have to pump the oil before the thermostat opens up.

Troutman, but they are not as cheep as Mocal.....nor are Fluidyne coolers as cheep as Mocal.
A fall rerun.

i use a mocal...

all of em allow a little bit of oil to circulate when cold....

I vote for none. You live in CA. Not Alaska. Start the car 10min before pre-grid and be done with it.

Warm up is for cars that need to come off of cold start quickly for emissions


B

For a CA car, I'm with Brad on this. If you feel you must have one, the Mocal will do fine, and much easier to fit than the Troutman. The Mocal does bypass some oil to the cooler circuit BTW.

I Would never again run a car without a thermostat to a front cooler, I tried it and lost points in to racing events when the cooler popped. And at another event which was a night race came into the pits with the motor running great, nice and cool, take the mandatory five min. pit stop, jump into the car and gave it gas and pop goes the cooler, (no thermostat) did a quick bypass but what a PITA that was.
Willow springs and Buttonwillow can get very cold Calif, or not. If you have a motor that can push 60-80 psi + with a cool running motor, Under 210 like my 3.2 why would you worry about 1.5pds. I like to do things the way the factory intended it to be done. IMHO
High RPM = high pressure. Think about it, a thermostat is cheap long term insurance.
Mocal is a good unit but the Throutman is a step or two above. I like the idea that you can adjust the opening and closing temp with Porsche thermostats.
If you are running a four Maybe you can get away without. A 6 well, what is you adverage psi??

I say without because less is more and because I can.

How cold or how high a PSI before a thermostat on a street machine? I'm running a 28 line brass Carrera cooler up front. At startup now with temps in the mid 40's in the a.m. I'm running 80-90 psi before the car warms up.

Greg,
what about a 911 SC or Carrera inline thermostat?
They work well and you should be able to pick one up fairly inexpensively.
Is this for your car or Tricia's?

I had a 911 Carrera thermostat on my 914-6 with the 2.7RS motor and it worked great.

Of course now I use a mocal sandwich/thermo for the 4 and it works very nicely as well.

Hows the weather on the central coast?

Thanks to everyone for your input!

Really appreciate the experience everyone here is willing to share.

So far here is the input:

Mocal: 5

Troutman: 2

Factory: 2

None: 4

Now I have some good ideas, points & counter-points that have to all be considered!


Thanks again...

Let me be clear:

I knew he had a 4cyl.

I knew he had an upright fan shroud with 911 fan.

I know he doesnt run enduro's (not many do in their 914 4cyl cars)

I know that he is very methodical in his approach to track events and would properly warm a cold car up prior to rolling to grid.


I have NO idea why some of my cars have not popped the lines. The last car that I watched pop a line in turn 3 at Willow Springs had a factory 993 setup in place. The t-stat stuck.


B

that definitely doesn't sound fun.
I used to run 100psi in my race 4 and at one race it was so cold in the a.m. I did have to scrape the ice off of the windows.

at that race I did blow my safety valve both on saturday and sunday mornings while trying to warm the car in the pits.

I agree it was a pain.. I had to shut the car off and wipe up spilled motor oil, while i reset the safety valve...

however I have now run without thermostats for about 12 years.
that was the single only time I've ever had a problem and the temp was below 32F that weekend.

I run dual fluidyne's in the -6 race car with over 100PSI cold and NO thermostat.
only been running this car for 2 years, but so far not a single problem.
I admit, I use manual thermostats (plastic cooler block off plates) that I have to install to block off one cooler depending upon the ambient. I have a full plate, a half plate... and I switch them depending if its 110F ambient in July or 90 ambient in October.

BUT...
no problems.
never pop a cooler.

I would HIGHLY recommend that you warm the car up to operating before going on the track. Surprised you had a night time episode. Maybe run a better cooler?

That will never work!! tell the truth.. you only spin the engine to 4k RPM

We run -20 suction side lines and with -12 returns on single HUGE Fluidynes @ 8400RPM plus.. NO T-stat. Wouldnt even think about it.



B

From Brant: I run dual fluidyne's in the -6 race car with over 100PSI cold and NO thermostat.
only been running this car for 2 years, but so far not a single problem.
I admit, I use manual thermostats (plastic cooler block off plates) that I have to install to block off one cooler depending upon the ambient. I have a full plate, a half plate... and I switch them depending if its 110F ambient in July or 90 ambient in October.

Heeltoe914
I really like your car, it looks as if you have done a fine job with it. How are you doing in racing?
Anyway as you say the plates work as a manual thermostat. Are you saying No thermostat even on a street car or is this a pure track car? FOR ME the thermostat was one less thing to worry about. If you are a club racer and you are your own one man crew, session come around fast, you seem to never have enought hands. I am sure if you wont to warm the car for 10 min Things will be fine. For me I wont to race and focus on driving. Just my 02 cents have a great weekend all.

Fair questions.
its definitely a track only car.
I would run a thermostat on a dual purpose or street car.

regarding my manual block off plates.
I don't change them through out the day.
I put one in depending upon the time of year and then leave it alone.
I guess I could change them if I needed too, but just never need to.

definitely though I warm my car up before going on track.
have always done this even way back when I used to run a thermostat.
my oil pressures start around 100 cold and by the time I'm into the operating temp its usually down to 60. by the end of a race i'm lower yet. Racing is going fine. I wish I was faster, but I'm pleaed with my ability to move through traffic this year. was able to get to about a half dozen wheel to wheel weekends this year including 1 in nebraska and another in oklahoma. Its been fun to learn new tracks.

Glad to hear you are doing wheel to wheel. If you are having fun what more can anyone ask for.
Nice fab work on your coolers. I am now learning to tig weld, got a great Miller unit and lots of scrap to work with, do you have any tig welding tips to pass on?

am I hijacking this topic? Sorry back to Thermostats.

Thanks for the comments.
I've been taking night school for TIG welding
I found a journey man adult education program that has really helped.
regarding tips... ha... you should ask someone more skilled than I.

how about I say something simple;
"the nicest welds always involve the least amount of heat to get the job done"

no real tips to share I'm afraid
but I really do appreciate working with an instructor or someone more qualified that can examine my practices and give me direction and instruction after I take a stab at it.

I taught myself to weld stick and mig, and have re-learned so much from an instructor that I highly wish I hadn't tried to teach myself now...

brant

I don't run a thermostat for my remote cooler.

But mine sits under the rear trunk, near the heat exchangers -- I think letting it sit for 10 minutes before driving warms it up just fine.

Can someone enlighten me on where to source a Troutman unit? Ain't having any luck on my own...Thanks!

Wade

Here ya go!

Hey everyone!

Thanks again for your responses so far.

I didn't provide this info earlier because I didn't want to bias the inputs. But here is what I currently have:

AN-10 Troutman Thermostat in the engine compartment

Click to view attachment

AN-10 lines to front trunk mounted Fluidyne DB-30417 (1.15 quart)

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Air runs through front bumper cutout through cooler through exit in hood

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I even added a 'splitter box' to force air through the cooler




Problem: Last event my oil temp went over 250 after about 10 minutes of full out laps. SCCA Vintage sessions go up to 25 minutes, hence the rub...


I was originally wanting to increase flow and simplify my plumbing (to clean up the engine compartment) by switching to a AN-12 mocal thermostat and mounting it behind the passenger side rocker like others in the club have done.

From all of the good input above, here is what I'm thinking:

* Flow: I didn't realize before the flow restriction inherent in the thermostats. I'm thinking that the restricted flow plus the AN-10 lines may be part of my problem.

* Cooler Capacity: Also wondering if my cooler is too small at only 1.15 quarts (hotrod 4's run hot!) I'm thinking about running two like Brant's setup.


OK, now you know what I have, and why I asked the question!

Here's the loaded question! I'm sure I'll get lots of feedback (you guys are good at this!)

What do you think I should change to get my temps down?
(and converting to a six is not an acceptable answer!)

Canton has a pretty trick (looking anyway) oil thermostat. Seems to be priced in the Troutman range. No other info on this piece, but judging on the quality of other CM products I wouldn't have any qualms about it being suitable for the job. Might be more of a space issue though.

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/oil_co...hermostats.html

I have a Mocal thermostatic oil cooler adapter (goes in between filter and mount), and I was pretty disappointed with the overall quality of this unit. It's a casting, interior (and exterior for that matter) fit and finish was marginal (IMHO) at best. Lots of flashing and restrictive passages inside. I ended up porting it for better flow, and noted the sloppy fit of the thermostatic mechanism inside (took it out for the porting work). It didn't move smoothly even when lubricated. Makes me wonder how it would perform on the engine....

Ended up shelving it when I found it wouldn't fit with my engine mounts (on a Suby engine). Based on what I saw in this one case, I'd be hesitant to purchase other Mocal products. Other opinions seem to be positive on the stand alone thermostst, so..... YMMV

I replaced it with the Canton (non-thermostat) cooler adapter - one nice piece, machined from solid and anodized. Of course, now I've got to install a remote thermostat....
Jeff

I have a similar set-up but with 12 AN lines and my engine never runs over 100C. Lemme ask a stoopid question. Is your cooler up front getting hot?

My biggest screwup....ecxept maybe for starting with 914s:
When I initially installed my Troutman thermo, I mis-plumbed it. The only thing between me and a ruint motor was the Troutman thremo's pressure bypass.......blew up my cooler, tho.....Fluidyne coolers are tough, but not that tough.

Are you running a dry sump?

Last year I ran a wet sump with an accumulator and regularly saw 250 degrees. I switched to dry sump this year and moved the oil cooler to a better location and now I have trouble getting the oil up to temp. So, I actually reduced the air going to the cooler and now I can get the temps into a reasonable range (210). I have a oil T-stat that I plan on installing....maybe.

Couple things here though that confound my results.... I definitely improved the air flow to my front mounted cooler and converted to a dry sump at the same time. The dry sump has enormous capacity (16 quarts) compared to the wet sump (~6 quarts).

As Jake says....... oil temp is increased by RPM, head temps are increased by load.

Hi JP,

Excellent question!

I checked that during my 'diagnosis' steps. When the oil heats up, the thermostat opens and the cooler gets hot so that all appears to be working correctly. Even went back to Troutman and got the schematic to ensure it was plumbed correctly.

Greg

Hi Kevin,

I'm still running a wet sump. I was concerned that the close proximity of a couple of the header tubes to the sump was 'heating' the oil so I wrapped those sections. It now takes longer for the temp to start heading to 250 (I can get a couple extra laps at normal temp) so it appears that did help somewhat.

I think you have the better improvement of going to a dry sump. Any recommendations on a setup?

Greg

Greg,

it would be fairly inexpensive to plumb out your thermostat and try it to see if the temps come down.

you can even go to hydraulic hose places and have them make a steel/heavy line very affordably.

I took out my accusump on my old race car when I converted it back to a street car. My local NAPA makes up hydraulic lines. I didn't want to spend another 50 bucks to run a short stainless line where my accusump used to be. They made up a steel and rubber hydraulic line for me with the correct pitch A/N fittings for about 10-12 bucks.

it would be fairly easy to see what effect that had and not cost a bundle.

brant

Greg,

There's several (infinite, probably) ways to do a dry sump. I went one way and it's working on my car....there are probably better ways to do it, but the basics are:

-CB type 1 dry sump pump (~$100, but not the best pump in the world)... you can spend a load of cash on this part. I had to make some mods to it to make sure it cleared the cam bolts and matched the ports on the type 4 engine, and grind bit off of the stock fan housing to clear the studs that hold the pump on the engine

-Sump side plumbed to a remote filter-cooler-top of tank

-Bottom of tank plumbed to the pressure side of the pump

-3 gallon dry sump tank (Used Peterson tank, ~$200)

-Lots of fittings and stainless -10 lines (you'll spend several hundred bucks getting all of this)

why -10? why not do -12 and then you can use the same setup on a six swap in the future?

i ran -10 oil lines for my hot 4, and wish i woulda done -12 for a future six swap

Have you looked at the oil passages in the engine case? ... maybe -6.

Hi Brant,

That sounds like a good experiment. Thanks for the tip on the hydraulic hoses!

Greg

Hi Aaron,

When I picked up the used motor is was already setup for an external oil cooler with AN-10 fittings on the block so I just went with that at the time. You are exactly correct, I need to go to AN-12 when I make any upgrades.

Thanks for the reply!

Greg

Hi Kevin,

That's a real good point. I don't know what's going on in the case. The last rebuild on the motor was 2001 so it's time to go back through it and check that out while I'm at it.

Your previous reply has me investigating a dry sump system too! I would like to have the problem of not getting up to temp versus watching the temp go past 250 and having to come in...

Greg

Can anyone comment on their experience with the Mocal sandwich plate with the built-in thermostat? -Mike

Hi Mike,

lots of people use them
Me too...

they may not be the prettiest piece of casting in the world, but they get the job done. I used my first one around 1990.

when the car became a race car, we gutted the built in thermostat and did everything we could to reduce the hinderance to flow.

when the car became a street car again we put a sandwhich adapter with thermostat back into it.

I would recommend a higher volume oil pump with an aux cooler too.

brant

im running it on my street/AX car...

works fine for that....

if my motor was full flowed, i would run a Mocal in line Tsat