Well, its come to a point where next year I need to do the engine again, something happened, and I think a bearing is loose, and I might have fried some stuff..
Last dyno was 240rwhp on a 650 holley.

Currently has a 650 holley fuel injection system.. and makes a tad more umph...

BUT last time I drove it, was on a 117 deg day, and the cooling system couldnt take it and I cooked the oil on the way to the v8 meet. Put new oil in.. cooked it again on the way back, and towed it home (at 235 and rising I pulled it in, last temp was 250.. spent 7 mins looking for a parking spot )


It still has smog heads on it. It has a .040 overbore, and new pistons and crank and all that jazz..
From my calculations if I put on really good heads and valvetrain, I'll be over the 400hp mark.
Which is about what im looking for.

I'd love to throw a 302 crank in it and make it a 302... but thats major $$ and no one makes a short stroke crank.

Now if I build a 302, it would be built to rev really high, to mainly eliminate the need for a bucketload of trani killing tq. I think that 8k rpm is a safe number.
From my calculations, I could build a 302 with a big cam, high flowing heads, single plane, bla bla bla.. and it would be 520hp at 8k rpms and over 350tq from 2k-8k rpms peaking at 420tq.

But then again, I love turbo's to death.. a 350hp 350 on no boost, with 8.0 to 1 compression on 87 for cruising, and oh.. 7psi would be fine with an apropriately sized turbo.. oh a nice 520hp..

I just dont know!!!

anyone have a good source for cranks?
Anyone recomend some good heads?

I wanted to vote, but the option I'm thinking of isn't there....


LS1 with SLP headers.

I have a 350 now but really would like something I can wind up to 8k. Now a 302 or a 327 could do that. I also would go LS1 but really am a bit to far in the engine package I have now. I'm not looking for just horsepower I want an engine which will run smooth with the least vibration possible.
Andrew,
I'm sorry to here about your engine, the thing is SH*T just happens with cars like ours and we can't let it get us down. God knows I have had an engine go just last year when my crank thrust bearings went and dusted the bearings. I too like the turbo with its ability to idle smooth and have a lot kick. Turbo's do make a lot of heat and have there own set of issues not to mention the exhaust pluming. Let me know what you find out concerning engine details.
I know you can make a 302 but really don't know the details involved. Do you know much about the parts and machine work needed to make a 302?
John

Build a 302, it's the right thing to do

I thought all the v8 conversions were supposed to last forever.

The option I wanted isn't there either, put a porsche flat six in it.

That;'s what i would do if I were you, and I'm sure you're glad I'm not

I voted for building a 302, but I personally would try to build a rev happy 327.

Or

You could always build a 383 and then build a tranny to maximize thee engines torque with higher gearing

Go to Rancho Cordova. "All GM recyling" and get a $750 Corvette moter out of a late eighties car.

That's what I put in my old boat.

Or do the build of your dreams.

LJ's in Napa can provide you with what you need, crank/head wise.
They are a long time race/drag/dirt track engine build shop.


KT

SUBARU! Hey it was in your list, and funny enough its actually getting a fair number of votes.

-Tony

i didn't vote since you didn't address your cooling problem

pretty much all your options will thermally overchallange your current system and you'll be back at square one....

First...
LS1. IMHO it wont fit. therefore its not an option. I have no thoughts of cutting the firewall out completely and refabbing a new one. an access cover.. maybe.

Let me address my engine. I've driven it.. it "runs fine" but I'd like to go through it and see if anything is prematurely worn. at that state, I figure If something IS bad.. and it needs some rebuild then.... engine choices.

302. Can be built a couple of ways. a 289 crank can fit in a 327which gives us the 302, and mass quantities of that are around. The original z28 302 is a four bolt main, basically a 350 with a 'X' length stroke crank, making HUGE power.. and something about a 305, but thats a wierd engine...

Next..
Porsche six... no thanks.. been done before. to expensive. to slow without power adders.


383, trani is a serious problem. though 500hp is easy.. (carcraft had 500hp for 5k.)

BTW current trani setup to go in will be an LSD 915 running a bellhousing with a chevy clutch and flywheel.

Tony.. Im thinkin bout it... but its totaly against my nature..

and mike.. ehem.. smartypants (lol)

I've already given in.. while I could get my setup to work.. Im going to go with a rennegade radiator setup. but it'll be slightly custom.. and I will basically buy a new pump, get their tanks and hoses and stuff, buy the radiator and fans, and do my own shroud ducting and everything else...

Andrew

As I understand it you can use a 350 block and a 283 crank - not just a 327 with a 283 crank. You can also do a 283 block and bore it out to 4" bore which will make a 301.

This is just what I read today about 302's online - no real experience.

I came across this article that supports using a 3" crank (283) in a 350 (LS1) block

http://www.superchevy.com/features/camaro/...camaro_ls1_302/

Your nature? I felt the same way a couple years ago. When someone first said use a Subaru engine I first thought that aside from the WRX, Subarus were lame econobox station wagons. So why take an engine from one of those and put it into a 914? Japanese econo box engine in a 914? Didn't make sense, and it was definitely against my nature. I was really looking at putting in a V8, then I got turned off by the weight, all the other mods needed, etc. Somehow I discovered all the advantages of the Subaru engine, that in fact Subaru engines are pretty damn good, and that it was actually the most natural engine conversion to do for a 914 (aside from an air-cooled 6).

So think about it...

Don't you hate it when there are too many options?




-Tony

If your already 8up then there is no turning back bro. Sounds like you probably have the trany for it so just get some nasty bitch frome hell and add some skulls on your paint job like in glossy black. Get whatever your trany can take and show them muscle cars a thing or two about who owns the road.

Dual turbo V8 flame thrower!!!!!!

Andyrew,

An LS1 will most certainly fit. If you run a remote water pump, then you won't have to cut into the firewall. In fact, the LS1 WITH the water pump darned near fits......that would be using an LS2 water pump, as the pulley is 2" shorter.

If you wish to do a 302, can't do a 350 block without finding that rare and expensive LJ 302 crank. It would be easier to get a SJ 283 crank, and SJ 327 block and go from there. Cost wise, I would think it difficult to piece one together unless you have some old SBC parts already laying around.

An LS1 is a little pricier. Perhaps you would consider a 4.8L or 5.3L Gen III motor? These are real cheap at the wreaking yards; low mileage to boot! I've seen them for $750 complete with EFI. The late 4.8 is rated at 275HP, and the 5.3 at 285HP. Heck, you can even find LQ9's (6.0L) rated at 345HP, fairly easily (though a bit more $).

Andys

By the looks of your pole, consider yourself scooby schmacked!!

Spankasorus

...

you could have a Porsche V8....

lol tony.. thats hilarious!

I'll try one more sbc engine, then I'll do a subi...
Main reason for doing this car is proving to all the porsche 6 guys and t4 guys that v8 cars Do handle... and they handle damn good, when provoked.. (which is why I have 10.5in slicks on it... lol)

Rick, power to work ratio is just way too little.. you did a LOT of work to get the 928 v8 in there.. If I was to put a porsche engine in, it would either be a 996tt or a cayenne v8tt..

Andy's, I dont think I'll go with anything new unless its all aluminum or has DOHC... Oh, 300hp doesnt impress me right about now... Once you've had X amount, you want more... (which is a primary reason why I like turbo's... start at no boost, and keep dailing it in.. )

I really thought about the ls1.. and I might still think about it... but the initial cost is a hard hitter.. we'll see.


Andrew

Andyrew,

Cam and PCM tuning will get you 400+HP real easy with an (all aluminum) LS1. That's pretty cheap HP.

I don't think you'll find many (or any?) DOHC V8 motors that will fit a 914. SBC, SBF, & LS1 are all pretty compact by comparison. Might think (dream) about maybe an Audi V6 turbo, motor and trans....the 5 speed front drive trans has flanges that I read bolt up to the Porsche CV's. They get 400HP from the Audi's.

Andys

Dude, why stop at 8???



Jeff

Sweet!
I'll bet that sounds good.

I agree w/ mueller... fix the cooling issue 1st.

Then build a short stroke (doesn't have to be a 302.. that's just a #) SBC. The edelbrock performers are hard to beat for the $$ as far as heads go, but a good engine guy can get alot more from them quickly.

Dont over think this, it's not that hard.

BJH

From their literature Eagle makes a reasonably priced 4340 302/3.00" stroke (and 327) crank - fits the big journal 350 block too!

http://www.eaglerod.com/products/Chevy/sma...C%20cranks.html

I know Summit sells Eagle products - looks like building a sweet little 302 is just a phone call away! Set 'er up with with some nice big valve aluminum heads, roller valve gear, good forged poistons, big arse carb, and let it sing!

Something special about the Chevy 302, they were reported to make a good 400hp in Trans Am trim.

Jeff

Another option - a budget build 350 - making nealry 450hp! This one's a real torquer probably not suited to the 914 trans, but interesting what can be done these days with the old SBC.

This engine was done by the folks at Popular Hot Rodding:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0611...lock/index.html

I'd really like to see what their camshaft wizzard - Dave Vizzard (sp?) would have to say about building the "perfect" 302 for a 914! The guy is on the ball with the latest cam, head and engine matching. If nothing else, I'd definitely try to solicit his advise on cam, head and intake choices for such a build.

Jeff

Wow, they have really opened up their options - they didn't have that 3" stroke for 350 journals too long ago.

You wanna build a cool, high rpm motor??? Oh, well then... go down that list and you will see what I basically did to my steel 327 crank - I lightweighted and undercut it and so forth to get it to 42lbs. They have a 43lb version with either 2.1" or 1.89" Honda journals for just over $1K. I have $1100 in my crank, so that is a good price.

Get the Honda journals and a nice Honda journal rod. I don't like the 302 as much because the R/S is really high and the pistons are rather heavy. Make a shorter piston, the R/S goes even higher.

I prefer either a 327 with 6" rods or a 353 like mine (6" rods/327 crank and 400 block). 1.85 R/S ratio and good for 8500rpm easy. On a 302 a 6" rod is 2.0 R/S and the piston is a coffee can. Those motors are a bit over-rated IMO and you would be better off with the 327 for a still streetable car. A 302 really only works with a bit longer rod and launching above 7500rpm and shifting around 9-9500rpm - completely useless for the street and you will do teardowns regularly to rebearing if that is what you intend to do. BTDT with a DZ302 and a 289 Ford.

As for heads, the 286cfm CNC AFRs are pretty solid for the $$ and that cubic inch range.

My dad has one of these in his garage. Just think how cool and retro a flat head V8 would be.

"In 1967 the 302 cid V-8, made by installing a 283 crank in a 327 block (4.00 x 3.00 inch bore and stroke), was introduced for SCCA Trans Am competition. The 1967, 302, Z-28 had 2 bolt mains; later 302’s had 4 bolt mains. The crank was forged steel. The Z-28, 302 cid engine used Corvette L-79 big port heads, with 11:1 compression ratio, 2.0 inch intake valves and 1.6 inch exhaust valves. Solid lifters and 1.50:1 rockers provided 0.485 inch valve lift. Optional cams could be fitted. Standard intake was an aluminum tuned-runner manifold with 4 barrel, 780-800 cfm Holley. The engine was officially rated at 290 HP but produced closer to 360 HP. In 1968 the 327 was given a beefed up crankshaft with 2.45" mains and 2.10" crank journals. The same year the 307 was introduced which basically was a 283 block with a small main bearing 327 crankshaft 3.875" bore x 3.25" stroke. For 1970 the largest displacement small block of 400 cid was introduced with 4 bolt mains; in 1973 the 400 was reduced to 2 bolt mains. Because of the 400’s large bore of 4.125" and cylinder spacing of only 4.40" there is no water jacket between the cylinders at the center and the cylinders are referred to as "siamesed". Although production of the 400 was stopped in 1980 there is still great interest in the engine today due to its high displacement and low cost. "

Hey,
Is this a similar set-up? I too wish to build a different motor for my V8 car. The 350 I have now is running well and has only 6k miles but lacks the quick snap I think would be nice.
Link

Hmmm... I really like the sounds of that 400 block/327 crank combo! That short stroke would make one screamer of an engine, and the 4.125" bore and BIG valve heads can only help in that regard. Do it up with lightweight components as byndbad914 suggested, light flywheel, roller motor and cammed to max hp around 6500, max torque around 4500. Makes me want to build another Chebby engine!
Jeff

my vote is to get a crate sbc 350 motor for $1500 or so and use all the accessories you already have and get renegades cooling system or very similar.

I got a 350 sbc in the garage, renegade cooling system in route to my house and expect a shipment from KEP this week.

Anyone got a spare set of 350 sbc motor mount brackets ???

Personally, I'd just go with one of the GM crate motors and be done with it.

If you just gotta play (gearheads understand this), then here's another option to consider. With the right mix of parts, you can build a GEN III 327 and have all the modern EFI/electronics to go with it for cheap. Bear with me.

Buy a '00 or newer GEN III 4.8L LR4 truck motor complete with EFI and accessories. They are cheap, and can be found all day long with low mileage at the truck wreakers. Next, find a '02 or later 6.0L LQ4 or LQ9 block; you can buy these brand new from GMPP, or one of many GM parts dealer, if you prefer. Or, find a complete 6.0L motor that has fire damage; a wreaker will let it go cheap if half the stuff is melted. It's important to get an '02 or later 6.0, as the crank flanges are different on the early motors. For a budget approach, take the 6.0L block and pistons, throw in the 4.8L crank and rods (they are long @ 6.278" for a 1.9 or 2.0 rod ratio), and bolt on the 4.8L heads along with all the accessories and electronics. You end up with a long rod 328 cu in motor with, as I mentioned, all the modern electronics. 4.00" bore, 3.27" stroke, 9.5:1 CR with all stock parts. The stock truck cams (they are all the same BTW) are pretty short, so a performance cam ought to be considered. Find an '02 LS6 or a Z06 cam on Ebay for about $100. LS6 springs and hardened push rods are recommended.

If you want to step up and spend just a few more $$, then use the 6.0L heads (2.00" intake valves; flows like an LS6) and mill the heads to get the CR back up. An alternative to that, would be the use 6.0L LQ9 pistons, as these are flat top's and you may get away without milling the heads (you'll have to calculate the CR on this, as I didn't). Again, all stock parts.

I did all the investigation/calculations on this combination (except for the LQ9 pistons) because I was going to go this route before I came across a real nice LS1. All the deck heights work out, all the journals work out, all the compression ratio's work out, and all the parts interchange......AFAIK.

"How to Further Complicate Your Life", by Andys

I don't disagree with a crate motor, but having had my car on the road about 10K miles one gets to understand the type of motor needed in a car like this. Sure mine runs well but needs a engine package which matches up better with how one drives a 914. If someone told you in you stock-ish 2.0 to shift at a max of 5k you would begin to understand. This package needs an engine that can go to 7k or 8k to really work well. Does that sound like bull-sh*T ? Ya I just what to go faster

andys.. The gm crate motors rev to 6k.. Yawn. Only produce X amount of hp. AND are built/cammed to make low end tq.

I rebuilt this engine 2k miles ago... If I wanted a crate engine, I would fix whatevers wrong with it, (if anything..) and save 1k..

The v8's produce WAY too much tq for driving around the street. I dont care what gear im in. ( at 30mph, I stick it in 5th. im done shifting) This is normal driving. If I could rid myself of oh, 100 of that tq.. It would be much more street frendly.. which is why I want to make it a screemer.. besides I love the pull of a turbo (the higher you rev it, the more power it makes, I also LOVE the turbo lag... makes the car feel SO fast.) with a highrpm engine i'll have that lag... but still enough tq and hp to drive around town...

I think i'm going to go with an eagle crank, keep my block, Do some stuff to the crank, see about getting oil to the bearings (drilling a hole into the crank?) and maybe knife edging it and other good stuff...
Then get a really hot cam, 8.5k max rpms or so, big $$$ in valve train, 11.0 to 1 comp or so, single plane intake, possibly MPFI (currently have laptop programable TBI)... Probably going to make it a 327.

I'll try to keep it under 450hp, and hopefully under 400lbs tq.. (dont think the 915 trani can handle it, even after rebuild..)

it sounds like you want rpms just for the sake of rpms? in my experience, an engine doesn't need to rev past 6k to be exciting... it's a lot harder to drive an engine that revs to 14k than one that revs to 6k.

I voted to open it up, fix whatever is wrong, and upgrade the heads/valvetrain. Keep it cheap but still (obscenely) powerful, and throw your money into suspension/chassis/safety/track time to really get the most out of it.

lol... ahh i'll repeat myself again..



Im trying to elimintate some of the mandatory tq that the v8's make down low. I have a very stong cam in mine now, suposed to be 3.5-7k. It starts making its real power at 3.5k, but its still insane the amount of tq at low rpms. let me give you a picture.
Driving around town, I can not give it more than 1/8 throttle, (less than 1/16th for 2nd and 3rd gear) if a cop is anywhere near present, or if im trying to be a good boy. I have my timing set up for way high rpms (I cant remember details.) just to be able to be moderate around town. If I made use of my electronic timing, I could advance it correctly to make both high and low tq.. but I dont want to do that yet with the 901.. I always feel im going to break it.

heres a good example. 265x10s on the back, 2nd gear, 5mph, clutch out. Put my right foot down, for 1 second im thrown in the seat, then I hear what sounds like a carrera gt reving up (dont ask me how, right now I love my exhaust!!) as the rear tires just spin. (starts spinning at 2500rpms.)

btw, my moneys already in my suspension, brakes, bla bla bla bla bla. aw what the heck.. heres what I got..

911 front suspension, 911 A calipers (soon to be the 951's I have in a box) nascar 3/4in-1 1/4in sway bar, koni reds, 255 45 17's (9.5x15 goodyears for track) Engman long kit, racing seats, harnesses, momo, koni yellows on the back, 275lb springs, fully seam welded, HPH flares front and rear 285 40 18 (10.5x15 goodyears for track), stock rear calipers with spacer and vented rotors(soon to be the 911 A calipers currently on the front). Racing pads front and rear, oh ya.. mueller roller bearings front and rear, turbo tie rods, new wheel bearings, erm... im forgetting some stuff... but you get the gyst. semi roll cage goes in before I get paint on the car, and before the new engine would go in.

i would have voted, but you don't have "stock 1.7L" as an option ...

Andy

Trying to rid your 3.6 of competition on the autox course?

lol

i would go with a small journal 327. In fact, I did and there is one in my Garage!!

I 2nd the 327 idea. Built a vintage one about 15 years ago to put in my (cough, cough) '79 El Camino. That engine screamed on top end, but ran like a pig in the EC because it still had the economizer 2.41 rear axle. The 327 just didn't have a bunch of low rpm torque to work at the rpms the rear end forced it to operate at. I built the engine for mild RPMs and mid-range power, but could hardley ever run it where it liked to be run. When you did though - like winding up the auto tranny in 1st gear - watch out!

Stroke = torque. Go 327!
Jeff

Andyrew,

Actually, the gearing for a street application using a high torque motor are not very well matched in the 914, IMO. The best match I've experienced, is the 930 4 speed. Those tall gears are real street freindly, and there's enough spread between the gears to take full advantage of the V8 torque. I've got lots of gear ratio charts for all kinds of transmissions, and if you look at the higher torque applications (in reasonably light weight cars), you'll see that the gear spread is designed to match the application. The same should be for a 914 V8, IMO.

Andys

Andyrew,I am in a similar situation trying to determine what to put in my V8 conversion.One option that I find intriguing is the 215 buick V8 aluminum engine.The block can adapt to the 300 crank out of a 1964 300 as do the heads and you can build a 5 litre V8 that weighs about 310 lbs dry.This would get the weight down around 2100 lbs. total vehicle weight.Horsepower to weight ratio is more important than total horsepower.I am building a street car not a race car so this is why it intrigued me.There are still a lot of these motors around.250 HP is plenty in a 2100 lb car.I need to research the tourque specs ,cause I too will be using the 901 tranny.Your current engine gives you about 9.6 lbs per hp the aluminum engine with the same 250 hp would be 8.4.Its about a 35 hp swing based on weight.Other pluses are better brakeing because you are stopping less mass and better handling because the car is close to the factory weight .I'm sure there are reasons not to do this and other members will chime in but it has been done and I have seen cars for sale on evil-bay with this conversion.I have time to wait for an engine to become avalible cause I'm not in a rush and don't have a lot of time to devote to my project right now but it is a viable option.

nice thread - I am about to install a 307 with 300+ estimated HP into my 914 and I drove this engine while it was in the 1969 4spd camaro it came out of. It was hard not to chirp the tires just puling away from a stop sign - slowly - grandma style.

Typically TQ and HP go sorta hand in hand - for the most part. Maybe you need to look at getting rid of 100 hp too ??

What kind of performance and overall fun to drive factor would a 200hp sbc v8 give a 914 coupled with a stock tranny?

A subaru conversion is looking better and better but I won't be satisfied until I have a sbc v8 in a 914 : )

Jim

Jim, hp is (essentially) tq x rpms with some other numbers in it.. (lol)

So, the higher you rev the engine, the more hp it will produce. Lemme see if I can post my dynojet dyno to give you all an example.

Here you go. Some desktop dyno 2000 stuff.

First one is a stock T4 with the stock numbers put into it.

Click to view attachment

Next is my current engine.
Note smog heads, cam, carb, and compression. PS my actual dyno was 240rwhp and 275rwtq. converts to 275hp and 315tq. PRETTY darn close to this simulator.

Click to view attachment

Next is the 302 rever.

Note heads, cam, headers, intake, carb, ect. I realize I wont hit that number, but, this shows tq vs hp vs rpms. If I make it within 100hp of that number, I'll be happy.

Click to view attachment

You are now WAY beyond the stock transaxles capabilities... Start saving for a big Box...

Go talk to a few race motor builders. Tell them what you are doing, and want to do. They will be able to tell you about the 283 crank they have sitting out in the shed that you can use in your block w/ the right bearings, and how you can have it for $50...

RPM's are nice, but they get expensive quick too...

BJH

Years ago, I rode in a 914 with a 215 aluminum buick motor. I will say that the car was very well balaced. Real nice power to weight ratio, and it didn't over power the chassis. It was a real sweet car. I don't know much about the buick version, but the '63 Oldsmobile version could be had with a 195HP 4 barrel, or a 215 HP turbocharged version. And the motors were real light weight......I still remember seeing an article that shows a guy standing and bear hugging a one of these motors; sure , he was beefie guy, but you get the picture. That same basic motor is (was?) used in Rovers for many years, and there's lots of parts for them.

Andys

it hasnt been said vortec heads bolt up and you use a vortec style manifold- great flowing heads! good power!!! although a 302 is sweetness- knew a kid in highschool with a 69 camaro that came with one stock- i didnt believe it was what he said till he showd me the build sheet!!!

All the said ideas have been done before.

At least do something original.