I had my first autocross experience this weekend and had a lot of fun. Considering my car's setup I should be able to do much better than I did. I'm not saying my car is well setup, but that I've got close to zero skills.

What I'd like to do now is start learning some of the basics of racing, vehicle dynamics, etc. I want to at least have the theory down and get some idea of what I should be doing.

So I'm looking for reccomendations on books or videos or anything that can help me get started with this.


-Tony

I learned quite a bit from a motorcycle book entitled "a Twist of the Wrist"

Alot of the info transfers to cars.

Beyond that all of my learning has come from instructors, either @ Skip Barber, Derek Daly, or local PCA/POC stuff.

Should have gottne the lotus guy to ride w/ you early in the day, he waould have been helpful.

BJH

Secrets of Solo Racing...By Henry (Hank) Watts.
Great for beginners and folks with experience....Talks about driving techniques, terminology, setups etc.
Here is a link to a copy..

After all of that reading.....seat time, seat time, seat time

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Solo-Racing-...g/dp/0962057312

Actually he did. He went out with me the first session, but it wasn't a very productive session at all. I ended up getting lost several times, so I was really screwed up. He was telling me to look two corners ahead, so while I was trying to do that, I would lose track of where the course was. I'm sure its good advice, but I was so scatterbrained trying to determine if I should shift or not, when to brake and when not to, where the course was, etc. etc.

Another issue I need to work on is shifting. I think my 2nd gear synchro is shot, I can't downshift into 2nd very fast at all, making 3rd gear a waste of time.



Dan: Thanks for the reccomendation. I'll order that soon.

-Tony

As they alwasy say, the best way to get better is to Practice, Practice, Practice.

This one is decent:

http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Secrets-Profes...TF8&s=books

And of course you need to have a clean state of mind when you drive too.

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Driving-K-T-Berg...TF8&s=books

That "Solo Racing" book is highly recommended - I've borrowed it and read a little and now should buy my own copy. The real reason I decided to post is to offer this advice = get on the go-cart track! Find a place that has the high performance carts, NOT the lawn mower engine bumper carts, and spend a couple hours trying early vs late apex turns, throttle steer, braking techniques etc. Not only is this a great accelerated learning excercise, but is is a TON OF FUN!

Man I was nervous my first time out. I could hear my heart beating. I have limited ax time, so I don't have advice on how to drive. What I have learned is to show up early and walk the course, pay attention to the other drivers, try to work the difficult corners during work sessions and take your time. Race against yourself and keep it fun. Getting an experienced driver in the car with you is a plus.

Keep at it! I think I am going to take a look at some of the reading material recomended in this thread.

Henry's book, good as is twist of a wrist. But nothing beats seat time. Period, nothing will.

Seat time is the winner, get a lot more of it and you will improve. Then you hit the brick wall, and you need to toss your keys to a National level driver and see how much more your car has that you can't give it. Very humbeling, but enlightening also.

Then seat time again. I am down for the season, but I will be ready for next season, and be out at every test and tune day I can find. Base line the new setup, and make adjustements from there. And seat time, nothing like it.

Walk the course, and walk with a pro, team up. Walk as many times as you can. Ask questions, and learn, don't go for the top guys unless you know them, because they will tell you you can take certain sections flat out, and they might be able to, but it will probally make you butt pucker. BTW, I sit in grid and close my eyes and run the course several times in my head. First time out I run 95% look for the things that I thought would make my butt pucker and if they didn't hit them harder, and remeber the things that did make me go OH ________!!!!!! And figure out a way to improve them. 2nd and 3rd runs and every run after I just want to improve my times.

Look for an SCCA or PCA Region to host auto-x schools and go to them, if you want to be faster, nothing like getting a boot to the head so to speak.

DROMO 1 Run from Joes T4T BBQ!!!!!!

2 15 minute seasions will wear you out, and there are enough people makeing fun... errr.... critiquing each other driving that it's a useful experiance.

BJH

I realize that track time is important, but at this point I really just need to know the basics, like how to determine a good line, when to turn in, when to use the brakes, how to position myself on the track. Other basic things I don't know are how a car reacts when going through turns, just basic physics. Also, how to drive with a car that oversteers/understeers, and how I would even determine which of those my car is doing.

I think once I have a theoretical sense of things, a basic understanding of how suspension really does its job, etc., I'll be able to say 'i should have applied the brake later/earlier, I should make this point the apex of a turn, etc.

Then maybe I can practice this stuff on my PS2. As it is, I can hardly stay on the track when playing GT4. I realize that a video game is probably not a good way to learn driving technique, but at least its a place to try out the basics.

I'm going to try and get to more autocross events and DE events as time permits. I've still got lots of things I want to do with my car, especially in the suspension department (BJ can attest to this). So for the next year or at least the next few months I'll probably be spending a lot of time getting the car suitable for driving.

-Tony

Hank Watts showed up at one of our local events (last year I think...)
He was en route to a track outing and has his 911ish turbo monster on the trailer. He drove an M3 BMW and was very fast and smooth. It was nice getting to chat with him.

Seat time is king, but I whole-heartedly recommend autoX schools.

After finishing the new suspension in my 240Z a few years ago I took it to an AAS event in Sacramento to check out the improvments. The car was a whole different beast than ever before and I felt a little lost trying to figure out what it would do. I ended up about 7/10ths off Chris Cox in his M3. (This is an FP car)
At the end of the day Vic Sias took my car out for a fun run and promptly took another second off my best time. One of those "holy sheet" moments when he came in and told me to "put it in 3rd through the chicane then keep it wide open through the left sweeper."

Not a video or book, but the autoX training school put on by GGR/Zone 7 is a great two day training course.

You will learn a lot.

In the mean time come out to some of our events and we'll ride along and teach you the tricks.

Physics of racing series Yeah its off the Miata.net group, but hey they need all the help they can get.

Oh, BTW, Miatas are great cars to learn in, can make about anybody look fast. But if you really want to learn, a Kart is the best, butt for physics thing out there.

Starting at ground zero, experienced AXers tell me that the average guy 4-5 years of heavy AX competition to reach to near his potential. It's all about butt time and observation....we're talking about the driving part, not the car. I've only seen one semi-natural. I later found out he had 5-6 years of karting....so much for my "natural".

You can get some basic tips from a book, but applying them takes practice....then some really fast guy comes along and does things differently...then what?
Play stations are just that....but hay, give it a try....it can't hurt much.

The best thing you can do is avail yourself of a good instructor. The first thing he should do is make sure you can navigate the course sucessfully....nobody goes fast without knowing where he is going. Some of your hero instructors forget the blur they went thru at their first 4-6 AXs. After 4-6, things slow down enuff so's you can start looking ahead plus your course memorization skills will have improved.....then you can worry about lines, setting up for a section, braking late, how soon you can roll on the gas, where you can make time and where you just "get thru".

Watch the fast guys. See how they attack a section....you gots the time while working a course, it ain't all chasing cones & schmoozing with your fellow workers....don't waste it. Should you be out there with a hotdog driver, picking his/her brain is allowed

These are my opinions and they are mine.

I'll definitely second the book recommendations...

"Secrets of Solo Racing" - Henry Watts
"Twist of the wrist" - Kieth Code

Twist might be aimed at MC racing, but a whole lot of it applies to 4 wheels as well.

And yes, Seat Time, Seat Time, Seat Time will be worth WAAAAAAY more than book time.

Start looking for Evolution autox schools. It's a traveling show, and there might be one coming to your area next year. Go to as many autox events as you can, ask as many questions as you can, ride with as many people as you can. Really, nothing else will come close to getting you up the learning curve as direct experience.

I will suggest this... Don't mess with the car for at least a full season. People will tell you need to install this thing-a-majig, or run these super tires, or whatever. Once your car is in a decent road-worth state of tune, leave it alone and learn the car. Changing stuff pell-mell is a common practive for people just starting out, and it can really mess your ability to learn what is going on with your driving when the car is always different....

Once you have a season or so behind you, you'll be much better able to tell the difference between understeer that was your fault (overdriving the corner) or the cars fault...

welcome!!!! Now yer hooked!!

-Josh2

I have to mess with the car now unfortunately, though I guess winter is proalby not a super active autocrossing season.

First thing is that its getting too hot after a few runs, so I need to continue my cooling work.

Second, the suspension is very sad. Stock front sway bar and torsion bars, KYB shocks, and maybe 140 lb rear springs and no rear sway bar. I'm not going to try for the optimal setup, but I do have an 87 Carrera front suspension to put on and would like a set of Bilstein shocks and stiffer rear springs. I figure that should give me a decent starting point and once I get some experience I'll be able to say "I want an adjustable sway bar" etc.

-Tony

Tony,

get the car gremlins sorted.. then "chat" with me at the next BBQ. I'll guide you down the starting path with 914's. Be prepared to run 2-3 AutoX's month and be prepared to travel a bit.



B

don't expect too much from the books, but if you have no clue on how to drive your lines, they may give you some starting reference
but IMHO your money is better spend on gas/tires/parts/entry fees

get as much seat time and instruction as you can
see if you can catch some shotgun rides with other (faster) drivers

on your first run at an AX, try focusing on the course and not so much on being fast (you can't be fast if you don't know where you're going)

trouble with AX is that you usually get very little driving time
so it's easy to get too eager to set a fast time instead of learning the course

forget about shifting, just put it in second and leave it there (unless you have a really really long straight in the course)
just focus on steering throttle and brakes for now
once you're more comfortable, the shifting (if needed at all) will come naturally

don't mess with your car too much yet (fix the cooling issues though)
in a car with soft suspension it's much easier to learn how the weight transfers left/right and front/back (and both of them together) and what the weight transfer causes handlingwise

just my € 0,02

Brad: Thanks! Does the group that runs the autocross at Qualcomm allow non-porsche motored cars? My parents live about 10 minutes from Qualcomm Stadium so I'd definitely have no problem going to those periodically if I can actually run.

Jeroen: Interesting point about the soft suspension/weight transfer. Makes sense.

BJ: I've gone to Dromo1 once, sounds like its time to go back.

Yeah.. they allow it.. in SCCA!!

SCCA has practice days before their scheduled AutoX's. You can get 6-8 runs on practice day and 3 runs timed for $20 or 6 runs for $40 (only the first 3 are timed)

I'd suggest spending some time in Karts also. The reading is good so you can communicate with others about what the car is doing.


B

Exactly

The ass end is trying to pass me... Isn't that proper terminology?

BJH

I too went to my first auto cross on Sunday, it was a blast, spent more time above 5000 rpm in a day than I have since I bought the car.

I should have picked the B group though, could have watched first, then drove that way. Well you live and you learn. This season is about done though, fortunately there is an indoor cart track about 20 minutes from my house

I only wish that was me, this is about 15 seconds faster than me on my 80 second run

Click to view attachment

Nope Toby, That was only about 13 seconds faster than you. That is Joy not Steve. Steve has the wildly colored graphics on his helmet, he was also about 18 seconds faster than you. Joy is just plain old white helmet. Still a spanking is a spanking... Joy has become a hell of a smooth driver. Maybe not agressive enough yet but she is very consistent. So much so that she hit the same cone every lap all day but for three laps! Apexed too early on the turn just to the west of the lightpole in the center of the track. If Steve hadn't talked to her about it she would have hit it every time. On one of her last runs she hit it and I saw her use a bad word! I cannot repeat it here but it is spelled much the same as the wheels on Steve's car!

Tony,

Don't try for the "optimal" suspension right now. You don't know what that is... What I mean is that what works for one driver does not necessarilly work for another. Different driving styles, and car prep will require different suspension settings. And a softly sprung car will give you a much better feel for the weight transitions of the car. Don't invest too much in the suspension right now unless you already have the parts on the shelf.

In so. cal. you'll find LOTS of atuox events year round. I don't know about PCA down there, but many chapters won't allow non-Porsche drivetrains. SCCA events take all comers. You'll either run in X-Prepared or E-Modified. Do not expect to win in either of these classes right away though. What you SHOULD focus on is decreasing the gap between the regular front runners and yourself.

People who show up at an autox with the thought that their gonna be then next Senna or Andretti are invarriably dissapointed when they and their souped up hup-mobile wind up 10-15 seconds slower than some local hot-shoe driving a stock Honda Civic. The first few events will see dramatic gains up the learning curve.

Most definitely look into autox schools from the local clubs. You'll get some really good seat time, for minimal cost.

-Josh2

I never had instruction my first couple of years of AX driving. Then around last year Randal and some others instructed me and I still learned a tremendous amount.

Read, but make sure to get the seat time with a good instructor. I knew the physics of driving, but there are little tips that really good drivers are able to offer that go beyond car dynamics.

See if anybody has a copy of Going Faster! The Official Video Textbook of the Skip Barber Racing School you can borrow. I may sound like a shill for Skip Barber (and I do get a paycheck from them), but it starts with fundamentals, and advances from there. It's geared towards road racing, but A/Xing is road racing 1 lap at a time.

T.C.

Sooo hook us up!! (you get a check from them!!!) I would love to see it.


B

Having crewed for Ronn Langford in the 80's (yes I am that old) I can tell you that his book is far more involved than determining lines. He (and his co author) delve ito the mental preparation of driving which to me is much more informative than any "lines" book. Here's what I know.

Auto X:

Smooth yet agressive in the way you drive. Every foot out is a foot you must come back in, and if the corner is a slower speed corner, than it is better to get the car in and turned even if you sacrifice some speed to ensure your exit is a good one. People that have always been slow to me are the ones that are going to show you how good their brakes are, too bad their corner entry mid and exit sucked so bad.

In Auto X it takes some serious mental preparation, since you have little time actually on the track driving. Here's how I prepare.

I show up late: I like some of the last runs, I get to watch all day, or at least part of the day.

I make sure the car is prepared the best I can. I WILL NOT SUFFER THE CARS POOR ABILITIES. If the course has a slalom, I may dial in a bit less over steer, especially if it has some speed to it.

I watch the course, from the start and then my next vantage point and so forth. And I watch more than one person drive it. Usually the guy that is fast does not look fast, because the car is smooth. You want to drive with fast and slow hands, Now I know you may think this is an oxymoron (or I am just a moron) but what I mean, is your hands must be quick to react, yet deliberate in the way you move them, and above all the way you turn the wheel on and off (starting and ending your turn must be smooooooooooooooooooooooooth) Like a babys ass.

For you scientific types, If your car can do an amount of work (corner). It will also have a limitation of time. If you reduce the time to load the the car, (reducing the time ) you will exceed the workload the car can do. So by spreading out the workload you can do the work limit. Am I making any sense.

Seat time, is just that seat time, without correction to your driving habits/problems, you may only reinforce the same problems.

I suggest a professional driving school. And start off with good habit from the start.

Also some LB (local boy) can help you (BRAD) and most of these guys really are fast, and have a alot to impart.

Erik Madsen

My local club does a Novice walk before the drivers meeting at each event. Usually done by Crissy or Ken Weaver - both are National Level SCCA drivers. They walk the course talk it out, point laugh, have a great time. They show the transitions, the lines things that will bite you, etc... Very nice for the novices, I tried to sneak into the last one.

You can also get on the list to setup, or sweeper for the course. It is a good way to go out and get an early look on the course, but best of all you are helping put on the event you will be running in. That goes a long way toward getting time with the top dogs, and that also helps you get the insider scoop. Bring some java, and share it, I don't even drink that black tar of death stuff, but others do, so I bring it. it goes a long way first thing in the morning. But lik all of us have siad time and again seat time.

This summer I ran 3 auto-xes in 2 days, had fun runs after the night one, until 2:00am, back up at 6:00 am and ran all day long. I got about 30 runs in that weekend. Not sure if your local clubs do this , but Myautoevents.com is a great way to find local events with in a radius of your home, and plan your weekends.

Ever since the new owners bought out Skip, it's hard to get anything @ a discount, (I could not get my son a discount to a school), but the senior instructor and I shamed them into a discount on the video. I've been with Skip Barber since 1988, so my copy is in VHS. Obviously they are now on DVD and I can get them for $27 plus actual shipping from my house if I can get 9 people to join in on a group buy (I would be getting 1 for myself).

T.C.

Tony,

Hook up with Cal Club Solo2. They used to have a auto-x school once a year (at least they did when I lived in your neck of the woods). They've got some great drivers there that are willing to help out newbies.

Cal club Solo2 website

Hmmmm..... 2 practice days coming up this weekend.....

Here's the pics i got of Tony's car.. i have cropped them a bit, and shrunk them a bit, so if you want the origianl, send me an e-mail... Bhipskind@gmail.com

It could use a bit stiffer sways

Tony, is that how you broke your door handel, draging it in a corner.

:PERMARIN: Joe

No, the door handle broke from simple, unexciting fatigue. Still haven't fixed it. Maybe I'll make it electric and forget about it forever. Of course that would blow my 1889 lbs weight

-Tony

hey tony, i ordered the solo driving book...

you are welcome to borrow it when im done

there you go Aaron....

I have a signed copy that I'll be glad to let you borrow.

BTW a signed copy will end up making you go faster.

After I figured out I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I got a hot shoe co-driver to teach me what fast looked like.
My 1st ride with him in my car was like "holy shit" his hands were moving in a blur his feet were even faster. He was also saying "holy shit" with this car is faster than he was.
So when I drove with him riding he just said Gas gas gas BRAKE turn gass gassssss . I learned through his voice inflection how much of what I was supposed to do. Hardest thing I had to get over was when the car got loose I was supposed to give it more gas.

Watch some of my videos on SCCAforums.com

Recording my runs on camera has been a big help in keeping "online" and where I thought I was wide open I really wasn't etc.
We are still getting faster

Amen to that!

I still say if reading could make you faster you would see everybody doing it.

I grew up in an auto-racing culture, Dad and his friends all hung out at
Doug Jennings Tiger Auto - watched SCCA Auto-xs and races from the cab of the tow truck. Grew up with XKEs, Bobsies, Lotus', and Porsches at the house. Helped Dad rebuild a 12 cylinder Jag XKE engine when I was 12, rebuilt my first engine when I was 14 - a Jeep F head, 4 cylinder. Point being reading, watching and riding, taught me a little. It wasn't until I was 12 and wanted to help around the farm that I learned to drive. And that was backwards, my mother made me drive every place on hte farm in reverse, using the mirrors. After that I graduated to the tractors, first the small ones, then the 4x4 500 hp monsters. I also learned not to chew gum while you spread Point being I read all about this stuff, I road with my father as soon as SCCA allowed it. It was not until I did it, that the learning really started to begin.

Pickture of Doug at the last auto-x. In his now very old school Tiger. Nice to see the old crowd still out racing every now and again.

Another option is some HPDE track days at Street of Willow. You can get two hours of track time for a just over $100 in one day. AutoX just didn't give me the repetition of several laps to try different things on the track and see what works. Streets of Willow is like a big AutoX. Speeds are not very high.

I like speedventures. They have a beginner groups. Passing is limited to the main straight and you can get an instructor for $30 for the day.

www.speedventures.com

Also you can take a driving school. The Alfa Club has a pretty basic, inexpensive, school great for beginners. You will get class, skip pads (wet and dry), and on track experience.

http://www.arosc.org/comp_driving_school.html

Their next school is Feb 3 and 4th. It's usually around $250 for the full 2 days. They are open to all makes and models.

After you do your reading to get the "lingo" and some basic ideas about performance driving and your car's handling characteristics....
AX AX AX AX AX AX AX AX....................................................

I tell all my students to learn as much as they can about their abilities and their car's abilities at the AX and AX schools before they venture to the big track...(15+ years as a TT/DE and AX instructor)

Hitting an orange traffic cone at 50-60mph is a whole lot different than hitting some K wall or tire wall at 100+mph.....OUCH!

Your car...you decide...

Hey Tony:

Sorry, dude, but as a noob you're gonna be slow. Unless you're some kind of prodigy in which case we all hate you...

Are those digipix from the OCR Hollywood Park AX or the Orange Fairgrounds? I would have normally been at that event but I was off driving someplace else. There's no instructor in those pix? Did you have one? Having an instructor really helps when you are a newbie. Also, and I always recommend this, you need to go to Evolution Performance Driving. Typically the school is in SoCal a couple of times a year put on by some SCCA types. Phase one and two will completely tweak your driving into something that is competitive if that's what you're after. The books are okay but frankly I find them boring and a bit theoretical. They will give you the vocabulary for communicating with other drivers.

The karting idea is another good idea. You can head up to Oxnard and take the Jim Hall karting school to see if you like it and to get a taste of a pretty challenging vehicle. I believe enough in this that I'm planning to run Karts next season along with a reduced car schedule to help get some of my driving skills wired tighter and to get race tactic experience (elbow to elbow I suppose) before I jump off into POC club racing.

There are a few good things about driving a door handle dragger. First you get very physical lessons in weight transfer -- everything you do effects the car and does it in a way that you can feel it very distinctly. Secondly, driving any car to it's limits is a challenge it doesn't matter if it's a GT3 or stock 356. Once you learn to find the limits in one car you'll be able to do it again in another...and again...and again... Thirdly, it keeps the costs down. With a door handle dragger expensive tires are a complete waste of money as are a lot of other things that sap the driving budget. You get to keep all your hard earned cash and convert it into seat time not wasted go fast parts while you're learning.

CU@the track,
Kevin

I didn't expect to be fast, but I want to improve. I had an instructor the firrst session, but it ended up being bad for me, because I got lost on the track more than once because i was looking ahead two turns as he told me to do.

This was at the National Orange Show autocross.

-Tony

IMO you need more than just seat time. You also need some books and classroom instruction so you can understand what you are trying to do out there. I did 5-6 autocrosses and learned very little. It was fun but I was slow.

What really brought me to the next level was doing the GGR's (Golden Gate Region) program.

I first attended the GGR ground school which is a whole day of talking AX, DE, lines, and watching videos. They gave me a copy of Hank Watts' book which I read and which reinforced what they taught in the class. My next step was the Zone 7 2-day autocross school. (Dan T. here was the lead instructor for my group BTW.) The school really cemented it all in, the lightbulb went on and I finally knew what I was trying to achieve out there.

I autocross both my SC and my 914 but I've been taking out the SC more lately. I've won my class several times now in the SC. I usually beat most of the stock Carreras (who should beat me) and I'm usually faster than many of the Boxsters who should also be a lot faster.

I also ask instructors to ride with me at AXes. I'll usually search out Dan or Neil (he was my other instructor at the AX school) for a ride or two. With the coaching my times always dip a little lower even with the extra body in the car.

In the end I'm just doing it for fun. I'm not modifying the cars at all specifically for AX. Both the 914 and the 911 are bone stock with good shocks and sticky street tires. My goal is mostly learning how to drive my cars at the limit with confidence.

Anthony thanks for the kind words for myself and for the GGR programs.

This is what I tell my students all the time...but until they actually go thru the school or at least several AXs with instructors, they never believe that it can make that big of a difference. Yes reading is essential to help a person understand the terminology and to be able to apply it to their car and their driving...that way they can ask for suggestions from folks at the AX and understand what is being said...that, to me is very important for a newbie.

Seat time is great...but if you don't know what you are doing and why, then the seat time is only going to reinforce bad habits that will only take you longer to overcome, besides just doing it right to begin with.

Yes its important to make sure those students of yours leave the wine and cheese at home.

But, I like wine and cheese.

A nice aged dry jack or a cracked black pepper brie.


KT