I recently purchased a 72 914 in a big basket, but with a cherry body. I'm thinking of putting a subie engine in it , but I would like to take a look at one already completed. Any in the SF Bay Area that I could take a look at?
Been on different websites and seen some Renegade conversions but would like to see the real deal and find out how much aggro is really involved.
Email me at hansenjoel@yahoo.com or phone 415/516-8217 (cell). Thx. JH

Get a hold of carreraguy on this board. His subie conversion is incredible. If I wanted a street car I'd go with similar set up to his car.

By the way.......welcome to the club . Or non club? Eddy

I did my own conversion using mostly Renegade parts. If you have questions PM me and I'll PM my contact info back to you.

Ed aka W9R1

http://community.webshots.com/user/fat73

Hi!
I'll email you soon.
Tom

Is there a list of the Subie engines or models that will work in the 914 style conversion this thread is about?
Info is not for me but for the rest of the teeners that would like to see that kind of info so they can look and probably find in their own area junkyards.

MikeCool

This is from the Renegade Hybrids website. Renegade Hybrids

EJ18: Found in Imprezas from 1993-1997. Rated at 110hp and 120 ft-lbs
EJ22 Phase I: Found in Legacies from 1990-1998 and Imprezas from 1995-1998. Comes rated at 130hp and 137 ft-lbs, 135hp and 140 ft-lbs, or 137hp and 145 ft-lbs.
EJ22 Phase II: Found in Legacies in 1999 and Imprezas from 1999-2001. Rated at 142hp and 149 ft-lbs.
EJ22-T Phase I: Found in Sport Sedan and Touring Wagons (Legacies) from 1990-1994. Turbocharged and non-intercooled. Rated at 160hp and 181 ft-lbs. Closed deck, cast pistons, forged rods, oil squirters: turbo motor. Poor flowing heads.
EJ25 DOHC Phase I: Found in Legacies from 1996-1999, Imprezas in 1998, and Foresters in 1998. Rated at either 155hp and 140 ft-lbs in 1996 or 165hp and 162 ft-lbs in 1997-1999.
EJ25 SOHC Phase II: Found in Legacies from 2000+, Imprezas from 1999+, and Foresters from 1999+. Rated at 165hp and 166 ft-lbs. There was a slight compression ratio change from 1999-2000 where it went from 9.7:1 to 10.0:1.
USDM EJ20: US Domestic Market WRX. Found in 2002+ WRXs. Rated at 227hp and 217 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, open deck, and decent heads.
EJ25T DOHC: Available in 2004 in the Forester XT. Rated at 210hp and 235 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, VVTi (Variable Valve Timing), and drive by wire.
EJ25T-STi DOHC: Available in 2004 in the WRX STi. Rated at 300hp and 300 ft-lbs. Turbocharged, intercooled, AVCS (Active Valve Control System), drive by wire, intercooler sprayer, and semi-closed design.

I know of several on the board that have opted for the EJ25 Single Overhead Cam motor, one being myself. The SOHC motor is supposed to be a little more bullet proof and durable. Its also easy enough to add turbo later if you get the extra power bug...

http://www.smallcar.com/index.html?tmx=10208
http://www.kennedyeng.com/index.htm
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon/

here are some good links

Thanks for everyone interested in 914Suby's.
This link may not do any posters replying in here any good but over on the East coast, PA region, yesterday I saw 5 on this link for sale starting at $90 for the whole car.
http://www.salvagedirect.com/

MikeCool

Do the subie conversions utilize an external oil tank like the /6 conversion do.. or is it all self contained in the engine and have an oil pan?

Doug C

Self contained - the block uses an oil pan

And is an external oil cooler needed? These engines will need a coolant radiator up front, right? Sorry, I've never paid much attention to these engines until recently.

Doug C

Not sure that an oil cooler is NEEDED but its probably not a bad idea. There are several radiator theories and ideas going around. Tony is trying one in the engine bay, someone layed one flat in the front trunk, but most opt for the Renegade style setup with direct air flowing straight through from the front like a conventional radiator. Air must escape either through the inner fender wells or the front hood....

No, Yes and no. No oil cooler is needed, but a radiator is needed. It doesn't have to be a front mounted radiator though. I currently have my radiator in the engine bay, as do two others.

In my case I am going to put a radiator up front because I don't get the cooling I want under tough conditions (running the motor really hard in hot weather). If you don't plan to autocross, race, or do hard mountain driving you can probably get away with an engine bay-mounted radiator.

I don't know of anyone who has tried to do a dry sump on a Subaru motor for a 914. Even in the Subaru world I believe the dry-sump concept is rarely used.

-Tony

Driving impressions - anyone here who's had (or atleast driven) both subie and porsche/6 converted cars? Idle...noise...acceleration..general feel?

Doug C

I was fortunate to get a ride with Ed (fat73) in his turbo WRX conversion. Let me just say it was a PERMAGRIN machine. There was something really cool about that blow-off valve going PSST PSST right behind your head. The same night I also rode with VegasRacer in Elvira which is a VERY nice 6. Once again, face was sore from smiling so much. I think either way you would be happy, for most of us it came down to the bang for the buck. Building a Porsche 6 is $$$$$ey, the subie can be had for much less and provide the same kind of fun...

Go to your next local SCCA event and see if you can coax a ride with a WRX owner, there is sure to be one there and some drivers are glad to let you ride along. Take a change of shorts...

Mine hauls ass, looks great and it is reliable as hell. Gets decent gas mileage ~30mph. If you do this swap, I highly recommend Crawford performance located in Oceanside California to tune the engine and ECU. I easlily break the back loose wherever I want. This week, I ran a modified Trans-Am (the one with the tunnel ram scoops the last year they were made). He passed me on the highway blipped the throttle to let me know he wanted some. I downshifted to 3rd at about 80mph and floored it. The trans-am could not pull me. He was impressed enough to roll down his window and give the and told me how fast my car is. Pretty funny to put a pretty fast car in its place with an old 914 with a 4 cylinder!

exhaust note at idle?.... I know it depends on muffler choice alot but generally speaking, what does it sound like. Also, what's the sound like when under full throttle (compared to the porsche)?

Doug C

I'm using a 2.5 liter non-turbo Subaru engine and my exhaust is a bit unconventional. I have one small muffler for each side of the engine. No crossover pipe yet, but thats something I want to do eventually.

Right now at idle its very quiet. Doesn't have much sound to speak of. A lot like a modern car. At moderate RPMs it sounds something like a cross between a Harley and a Subaru with its loppy sound. At high RPMs and WOT it screams like a racecar. Hard to describe the sound, I suppose I should make some recordings.

-Tony

Well Tony, you have been running your car with the 2.5 Suby now for awhile. I am sure you are happy with the performance. How about noise level at highway speeds
and gas consumption? Dimitri

nasioc.com that has everything you could ever know about subaru engines...I have a wrx with a canister exhaust (that when you hold it up you can see out the other side)...people think it's a fartcan but it's 3" all the way back from the turbo...jokes on them when I start the car...it sounds damn good, I only get complements about how good a tuned subie motor sounds...my exhaust is an Espelir JGT...if you wan the same low pitched boxer rumble but a lot quieter you can't go wrong with the Borla Hush...just make sure you take it to get tuned (the ecu, because subaru motors are nice, but can be a bitch when they're not tuned and the tune makes all the difference in the world)

Thanks for that link, I'll check it out.

Doug C

What about a rough estimate of costs associated? I'm considering either a Subie, or rebuilding the 2.0L I have in, as well as adding EFI. Either way, I'd have a considerably more modern car. So which way would be more cost effective?

I am very happy with the EJ25 engine. For a 914 its basically a type4 on steroids. It has lots of torque, and pulls all the way to the ECU limited 6300 RPM. I am thinking of supercharging it sometime in the future, but its just an idea at this point.

Right now I'm getting somewhere around 30 mpg. Most of my driving is not on the highway and I still haven't gotten over how fun it is, so I do step on the gas quite a bit.

The noise on the freeway is loud. Actually, the car is loud period. I stripped out all the sound insulation, the backpad, the tar on the floor, etc. It would not be hard to put a quiet exuahst on a Subaru engine.

-Tony

Depnds on a lot. I did my conversion for somewhere around $3-4k. I didn't strictly do a budget conversion as I did some extra things like add fiberglass bumpers, do a cable shifter conversion, and a fully custom exhaust. I did however make my own engine mounting system, all the wiring, put the radiator in the back etc. If you are going to do a Renegade style conversion and use a turbo motor, figure $7k

Now, as far as what is more cost effective.... It really depends a lot on what you want out of it. If you want >150 HP its quite possibly cheaper to do a Subaru conversion. Below 150 HP it depends on how much you are willing to do yourself, etc. There are other things besides horsepower to consider though. If you are interested in keeping the car true to its origins, a Type4 might be better for you. If you want long term reliability, modern EFI, easy power upgrades, etc., then the Subaru engine will probably be more cost effective. (All those things are possible with a Type4, just not cheaply)

If you are happy with 100 HP and the reliability of a well sorted D-Jet or Megasquirt system (which can be quite good) then rebuild the 2.0. It will probably be cheaper than doing a Subaru conversion unless you are bound and determined to do it as cheaply as possible.

-Tony

I drove Fiids Suby 2.0(?) turbo a few months ago, currently non-intercooled and guessimated to have about 180 hp....

With another person riding shotgun , the car just flat out hauled and was a blast to drive...sound at idle was nice and at WOT was music to the ears and not obnoxious at all...compared to my 911 with a 3.6 in it, I would bet they would be neck to neck against each other depending on the challange..

I've driven 3.0 (and smaller) /6 conversions and a few V8 conversions (up to 400hp) and I really enjoyed the Subaru conversion and would use that motor over any other current water cooled engine if I went that route....

I'm not too concerned with power at this point. May main issue is reliability. As much as I like the D-Jet, it's starting to scare me a bit (MPS prices, etc). I figure my two options are rebuild the stock 2.0L and install some type of modern FI. I was looking at SDS on Jake's site. I think a little too much DIY with the MegaSquirt, so I'm looking for more of a bolt on solution.

The other option is to convert to a Subie motor and get all of the reliability and potential power upgrades that come with it.

So, if I can convert to a Subie for around the same cost as a rebuild and FI, then the subie conversion is the way to go. But if it will be significantly cheaper to rebuild the stock 2.0L, then I guess I should go that way.

Either way I'm thinking this ain't gonna be cheap. Better pull out the calculator.

from what i'm finding, I think you hit the nail on the head with "DIY" meaning the more you're able to do youself, the cheaper it will be...for either direction

If Megasquirt is too much DIY, then a DIY Subaru conversion will be worse. That means you are going to need to go with the renegade setup, and even if you go with a 2.2L or 2.5L non-turbo motor you are looking at $5-$6k minimum.

To me it sounds like you'd be best off with a properly rebuilt 2.0 and Jake's SDS system. That will probably end up costing just less than a non-DIY Subaru conversion.

-Tony

Thanks for all the info Tony. I followed your thread with interest, and I know that my fabrication skills are no where near as good as yours, so I would likely be looking at getting at least the Renegade mount and rad setup. I'm sure the easiest way to go is a rebuild on the 2.0L. But the Subie power potential is very tempting. Oh well, I've got all winter to think about this.

Cheers!

Putting a brand new or modern engine into your 914 has NO real bearing on how reliable the car is going to be....just this week a Suby conversion had blown up his motor from an accidential overboost...and others have had issues with overheating/loss of coolant which left their 914 unuseable till the problem was fixed.

Like I mentioned above, I loved the suby converted car I drove, but you are creating false hope that the car will be 100% reliable due a newer engine.

it's like computer programming, garbage in = garbarge out

My motor becoming a drastically overpriced paperweight was my fault. I am the person that routed the hose where i shouldn't have.

The motor has proven itself as reliable as the type 4, and i am running a wierd set-up (stand alone pushing way more boost than is recomended for the stock turbo).

AS far as sound, i was running a cheepy "turbo" muffler, and then a glasspack. It was too quiet (no exhaust noise over 65MPH). Now i have just a glasspack, and it's just about perfect. Have to stay off the throttle in my neighborhood early or late, but everywhere else i love it.

You also have to be concerned w/ the rest of the parts on the car. There has been one wrx conversion and restoration whos window came off track... these things dont happen in modern cars.

If you dont mind doing some work yourself, i'll do a suby over a type 4 or 6 conversion anyday (biased as i may be)

BJH

That was at the root of my suggestion that he stick to a 2.0 type 4 with EFI. The fact that there are a ton of Type 4 engines out there running after 35 years proves they are reliable. The fuel injection system has proved not to be as reliable, and difficult for many to troubleshoot. Adding a proper EFI system to a fresh 2.0 type IV should prove to be a very reliable combination. In fact that is probably going to be a lot more reliable than a Subaru conversion, unless it was done by professionals like Renegade. I would have a lot of confidence in a complete conversion done by them. A DIY conversion will be as reliable as the person wants it to be.

I have not and will not say that I have as of yet had no problems with my car, because if I do that I will start having problems. My overheating has been manageable, and I have taken it easy, to the point where I have not had any issues with that. Being a work in progress I am putting in a front radiator soon to help with that.

BJ's primary goal (I assume) was not reliability. 300 RWHP in a narrow bodied 901 transmissioned 914 is not what I would consider a design motivated strictly by reliability

-Tony

Tony et al,

Is there perhaps a modern FI system that can be robbed from another car? There's been a VW Rabbit FI swap to a T4 done, I believe. Anything else? Is there a good candidate car that has a stand alone EFI that could be adapted? Seems something like this could be found for cheap at a wreaking yard. Toyota 22RE? Tons of those out there. Coolant temp sensors might be an issue that I could foresee.

Andys

only 286 so far...

And i never would have considered driving to Moab w/ the stock motor.

Tony I have an extra Turbo when you get the itch... also should have most of the exhaust stuff ready to bolt on...

Have to do pistons and drop the Compression, or run race gas thugh :-(

BJH

I am no expert whatsoever on FI, so I don't know. It seems though that the work required to modify a FI system for another engine would be way more than to just do a megasquirt type setup.



286 rounds up to 300.



You know, turbos are cool and stuff, but I want to see how a supercharger will work out. As you point out, the compression of the EJ25 does present a problem for forced induction. First though I'll need to put megasquirt or something like that on my engine. In time...

-Tony

TonyAKAVW, you said you made your own mounts and all that jazz, i was wondering if you had any good pics of the set-up or process... you know. I am in the process of finding a 2.5 or 2.0 motor to thrown in a teener. I got bored with my WRX so i'm moving on to a 914

Thanks in advance...


andrew

Why yes I do

I have a thread here with 25 pages of all the details and progress with lots and lots of pictures.

My progress thread

-Tony

There's part of me that keeps thinking that a Subie 2.2L in a 914 would be a nice little car. Not massively powerful, but substantially more than a tired 2.0 TIV, and super easy to find spare parts, knowlegable mechanics, etc. Less heat to get rid of than a 2.5, better gas mileage. Maybe my next conversion...

Reliable?

I never drove my 914 before the conversion and after Crawford performance breathed on my setup, I bought a one-way ticket to San Diego, hitched a ride to Crawford and drove it 300+ miles through the Mojave desert in July - no issues. Drove it like I stole it for a month or so in 120 degree heat, then drove it to Ventura California for GAF then to Moab with the ONLY issue bieng that I scraped the bottom and bent my radiator hose clamps and restricted the coolant flow and ever so slightly overheated on the way to GAF.


Yea, I guess my car is not reliable after all...

Race gas My friends Audi 5000 (yes,odd choice I know) runs on a race gas blend . . . of course, its puts out way over 350hp untuned and shoots flames It is very fun to drive.