found some sporadic info doing a search but is there a comprehensive faq on converting to carbs covering stuff like:

which carbs
which linkage
which dizzy (mallory)
which mallory (there are about 8 types at CB perfomance
which ignition to use if you want, MSD,...

no need to tell me about why it is so great to keep the FI

thanks,
dave

Here is my contribution to the debate, according my choices for rebuilding my 2.0 this winter :

- which carbs: 2x Weber 44 IDFs with velocity stacks and 6" air filters
- which jettings : venturi: 36 mainjet: 155 Air correction: 200 Idle: 60
- which fuel pump: Mitsuba 4psi regulated located in spare tire compartment
- which linkage: CB Performance Cross Bar Linkage
- which dizzy : not Mallory but Bosch 050
- which ignition : MSD 6A (#6200) with tach adaptor

- which coil: MSD Blaster 2
- which C/P : stock 94mm cylinders + 94mm VW Type 1 forged pistons (100gr. lighter each than Type 4 pistons) and that increase CR up to 8.7
- Which camshaft : Webcam #86a (290° duration)
- Balanced pistons and rods (adjusted weight)
- Lightened and balanced flywheel
- Balanced crankshaft
- Mittelmotor stainless steel exhaust or Triad exhaust
- New lifters, new heavy duty springs
- Three angles job on valve & seats
- Polishing heads ports
- Combo gauge Oil temp + Fuel level
- Oil pressure gauge in center console
- Large breather box

Expected power: 115-120 hp

If you run MSD run their dizzy

Dave, good idea! Best carbs for 1.7 /1.8/ 2.0 with relevant jet/choke size info. Also which fuel pump and where to /mount wire it up.
Are the manifolds all the same (I mean apart from 3/4 stud)

My 1911 has Dell 45 with CB hex bar linkage ( I think -see pic ) which works well.
Distributor is 914 1.8 f.i. with vacuum advance operating - retard is plugged.
Just use an Ignitor for spark although MSD or Crane capacitive discharge would be the way to go.
Pump is just a plain old Facet which is wired to the relay board and mounted on the firewall -I reckon front trunk would be a good place.
Always worth match porting the manifolds to the heads too.

44s are normally a little big for stock bore mild cammed motors. "I" would use 40s. 44s can be necked down but you need to do homework on set ups....no two engines are alike. The "book" can give you a starting point but a lot is tweeking, balancing and reading plugs.

BTW....my 2.44 has the 44s and I like them.....does about 18 mpg. Uses an 050 dizzy and a Crane Fireball system.

I added to my previous post informations about carburetors jetting, fuel pump ...


Why ? I do not want a drag 914 but a street car. The MSD PN 8485 allows different advance curves and different total advance from 18° to 28°... The 050 is well known to match type 4 engines characteristics and it is $80, not $ 200

So, I agree that 44s are a little bigger but I have them at this time. The mixture will be probably a little bit too rich at low RPMs. It is the reason of the MSD system choice. The multi sparks system will help to burn all gas under 3000 rpms ...

what's the expected price-tag?

that might be of interest too ...
Andy

Not really easy to answer before open the engine. If heads are nice it will be cheaper than if they are cracked. etc, etc ...

I will answer definitively in March

What if we had a laptop programmable injection system that utilized all the stock injection components except for the pressure sensor/throttle position switch for the same price (if not less than a carb kit/dizzy) The system also has multi coil packs like late model cars triggered from a dummy dizzy in the case. Open the engine lid and all would appear stock.

If your car currently has injection... it is plug and play. We can email you engine programs that get uploaded and make it run. Tuning time will be less than a set of carbs (stock cammed engines will run perfectly out of the box).

I hate carbs.


B

The hell with the what ifs. when and how much?

Bernie

Bern,

It is being tested currently. I will have 1-2 cars with me at Dunkels with it installed.


B

Brad,

Any chance of this working on a 2270? Hang on to my L-jet and D-jet stuff?
Maybe next spring.

Carlos

Carlos,

The plan is to make the stock injection pieces work with the 2270 and our new "brain".

Andy has been doing the math on the stock 2.0 plenum/injectors/runners.

We feel that there is NO reason why stock components cannot be used with a RAT 2270.

I'm currently gathering the pieces/parts for a 2270 utilizing the 2.0 plenum/injectors/runners and this new "brain" setup.

Stay tuned. Test results will be out soon. This is not something that you will have to solder together. This will be plug and play.

Since the advent of inexpensive programmable injection I have wanted to do a system that could utilize 90% of the stock components but have late model parts mixed in to help keep the cost down of having injection. 550$ pressure sensors dont really excite me when dealing with the old injection. So.. we actually started down the path of finding something we could market/sell... then we found a person way ahead of us in development and basically partnered with him. With Jake Raby building these "moster motors"... we need an injection setup that can cover his combo's. The best part is: not having to remove/replace any of fuel pump crap...


B

Brad,

My car lost the EFI in a past life. And this engine had many hard lifes during the previous 30 years !

It is the reason I want to rebuild it and have know and sound foundations about it.

Brad I am putting together a 2258 rat with reworked heads, split-durition cam, etc. I have both a L jet and D jet system and would be willing to be one of your test beds here. Think About It.

Bernie

Pat,

You have done some very good homework on locating what exactly needs to be done for your combination. I was basically answering the original post from synthesisdv (Dave). I knew he still had the original injection and instead of installing carbs I was offering a him a decent solution that would allow him to keep most of his parts.

I went thru your list.. I couldnt find anything you didnt cover.


B

Brad, your system sounds great but would bump me out of class. We can run carbs in vintage and in production.

EP and FP allow for weber 40 IDF, solex 40, or 40 dell's. Says original injection also allowed but has to be entire original system. Up to 38mm chokes are allowed.

Sounds like you can machine the weber 34mm venturi to 38mm. I would like to stick with the webers just because of parts availability and I can still get them new.

thanks,
dr

I don't know much about carbs, but why not just buy a kit? Weber has the whole thing, new and packaged for $675. The kit comes complete with two new 40 IDF carburetors, manifold adapter, linkage, chrome air cleaner, hardware kit and fully illustrated instructions.

thanks paul,

that is part of the plan, but I was really inquiring about the other components like the dizzy, ignition, cam, etc that go along with it. And also how to set up the carbs. I think aircooled.net will set up the carbs for your application for an extra $100. Maybe its worth it for us amateurs to get a baseline.

dr

No points, plugs directly into a MSD 6AL and you can adjust the curve to what you need.

Here is one for ya! This thread could be 100 pages from what I could say alone.

First oiff, realize that 90% of the people telling you to keep stock FI sell the parts that make it work! They like to keep you constantly refreshing their wallets with your greenbacks!


With that said, here is a combination that will work with almost any mild 2.0 or a tad larger engine, especially if it has a stock FI cam.

Here it is with Webers:
40mm IDF
32mm venturi
125 main jet
55 idle jet
F11 Emulsions
200 air correctors
mixture control scres set to about 1.5 turns from bottom, maybe less.

With a set ofDellorto 40 DRLA
Try a 34mm Vent (stock)
140 main
60 idle
.2 emulsion
35 pump squirter
mixture control @ 1 turn from bottom, trimmed to smooth it out.


Set up a Mallory unilite with no more than 30 degrees full advance, with Grey/grey springs and about 12-13 degrees initial advance. This will ake for s advance. This set up is almost all we ever use for stock, and slightly bigger 2056 engines, it works on 90% of them on the dyno perfectly!


I choose the mallory 5 to one over a MSD arrangement. The MSD is half as adjustable, and is more difficult to work with in the car, as it requires boxes and chips. The Mallory works perfectly with the Bosch Blue coil and no external boxes. I have a Mallory in every car that I own, and have not touched mine in thre 912 in 41,000 miles! The nicest part of a mallory is being able to get the full advance you need, and the initial advance as well. Most dizzys require you to jack the full timing to 35 degres to be able to aide at 12-13, where the engine is happiest with carbs and a lazier cam. This cleans up the bottom end, AND keeps that top end cleaned up for higher revs. Overadvanced timing kills top end power, retarded timing kills bottom end and makes the car idle like crap with carbs.

Jake, are you factoring in all elevations too?

That works well for sea level to about 2K feet, for every 1000 feet above that go down one jet size as a general rule. I can calculate it if someone needs me to./

Cool, I went from 5-7k elev to sea level and need to adjust things.
This will be very helpful to me(and others)

Thats all that matters! Some things do chenge it, but an engine built effficiently are going to basically be the same.

i have a set off 44's on my 2.0. theyre a little big. dont know the lift of my cam. they have all stock jets and such. whats a reccomended setup w/ 44's.

The car breathes great at 3K and up!

Brad, How big can your future FI system go????

How big of an engine??????

Im in if you can make it run one of Jakes big engines...

Rich

Jake, so you recommend 12-13 deg at Idle and no more than 30 deg full advance? I always thought that 35 deg was a good thing.....thanks for the thinking re-adjustment.
Is the vacuum Mallory worth getting?

Richard,

I dont (yet) have the flow numbers or air volume requirements for anything larger than a 2270 right now. I want to get this first one under my belt and driven for a month or two before we start making wild ass claims. The current flow numbers tell us that the stock 2.0 runners/lntake plenum/ will supoprt the needs of a 2270 with some room to spare.


B

Pat4-

What rods are you using to get the wristpin diameter down to 22mm? do you just put a smaller pin into the 2.0 rods?

I might want to do the same myself.

VW T1 rods.


b

those won't fit a 2.0l crank will they?

Not stock they wont. I knew that he had T1 pistons (which use the 22mm pin) We have a lot of people using T1 rods+pistons on a welded T4 crank for the T1 rods. It is MUCH cheaper this way and like Pat said.. the pistons are lighter.

Hopefully Pat will speak up when he sees this.


b

where can i get my crank welded so they will fit? That's a combo I'd like to use.

Thanks

No T1 rods ! We'll keep the T4 rods but we will change wrist pin bushings to fit the 22mm pin.

The car will enter at the mechanic january 5th. I will take many pics of any operations and I will report you.

I have done it that way before, back before we were having our cranks made.
The problem with stock rods is they are too short and too heavy. The TI rod has the same journal diameter as a 1.7/1.8 crank (2.165) and are just narrower. The stock 2.0 rod journal has way less load bearing surface on the rod bearings- thats why they spin bearings 5 times more often than a 1.7/1.8!

These crank, and rod s with a better ratio, with the lighter piston is one of the keys we used to unlock the TIV power with less displacement!


Above someone mentioned that their car ran better with 35 degrees timing- Thats not the case unless the engine is seriously inefficient in its design(deck too tall)

Overadvanced timing kills top end power and makes heat- The car feels fast, but your killing it!