I think there is a misunderstanding about PCA concours d'elegance. Maybe we've all seen Monterey on tv too many times, but I believe there is a misperception that concours are only for truely original or fully reconditioned cars. The expectation seems to be that your car should be showroom new in all respects except age.
I've been in a concours, and got a 2nd place trophy to prove it. My car has carbs (!). My car is a 911 color (gasp!). I have drilled brake rotors (OMG!). I have painted rockers and valences (EGAD!).

Its not stock, y'see.

I've only done the one Concours. I was told that I could enter as "preservation- full, preparation- touring, restoration- full, or restoration- touring, preparation - full and touring, and modified or performance- full and touring"

I fit quiter nicely in the "preparation" catagory, and a lot of those teeners out there would too. So the concept of "CW" is really doing a disservice to a lot of folks with nicely prepped cars. They could be CW too, but most don't think so.

I think too much focus is put on originality. Thats cool and everything, but technology has advanced a little, and if it is well adapted to the teener should not be presented as de-valueing the car.

What about it? Am I breaking an unwritten rule? There certainly is not a great effort to explain that a Concours is for anything other than trailer queens. I think there would be less derision if more people understood it is open for Po0rsche nuts of all flavors, not just the historically inclined.

The PCR's may have changed since the last Parade Concours I entered but there never used to be a Preservation Full Group. Preservation was always in the Touring category. The emphasis in the Preservation Group was always on utilization not on how clean your car was. Of course if your car had an ANSA exhaust, a MOMO steering and wheel minilite wheels this would count against you but a garage queen would never beat a clean daily driver. Believe me, I know because this exact senario happened to me.

Note; My car was not the daily driver.

Ooohh! You guys hit my hot button!

Waaay back, before the PCR's were changed to contemporary form, anyone could/should/would enter a PCA Parade concours, regional concours. multi-marque concours. Heck, the first Parade concours I won, I had VW chrome wheels and a front splitter on the car. There were only classes for 356, 911, 914, historic and race cars. The judging criteria were 90% based on cleanliness. And, the 914 was such a new model (and, mostly hated) that no one knew squat about it. That was 1974.

Then things began to change.....

Originality slowly became more important, to the point that there were few participants in most classes. PCA wisely began changing the rules, so not to kill the event for the masses. Seems to work well today. Just about anyone can play, and that's good. Purist, neo-purist, drivers can all play within the guidlines for each group. No one has to be shamed because his 914 (or whatever)has some personalized attributes to it, so long as they register for the proper class & do a little cleaning. I like it! Let's everyone play on equal ground. But that's at Parade level.

Now, at a regional level, things are completely different and at the mercy of the chief judge. He's usually the guy who declares the classification and judging standards. Regional concours CAN be more brutal than national. Particularly if you have a chief judge/chairman who is a Purist (THAT would be me) and a dinosaur (THAT would be me). PCA regions - please NEVER call on me again to chair a concours event - EVER. I am a purist & can't help it. And, it isn't fair to the others. What I'm saying is that PCA national events are bound by very specific classifications and judging rules. Regionals are left up to whackos like me, and, as I said previously, I have no control over my feelings. Get the drift here? Don't call on me to chair or judge an event, because I'm a Purist! Stop it!

Now - multi-marque events. Quite frankly, these are the most fun. Why? Because the judges (GENERALLY) know little about the various cars they're judging. They usually know cleanliness, but little about originality. If your 914 is really clean, you can piss off a lot of Ferrari & Jag owners. I love rubbing their nose in the mud - lowly 1.7 914 beats Ferrari & Jag owners who were too lazy to clean their cars. Yeah baby!

But.....the point of concours is to preserve a 914. Can anyone tell me anybody who's lost value by super-detailing a 914? Also makes the car run better.
Pat

Now off my horse! Thank you very much for the forum.

Pat,
I understand the reasoning behind the changes that were made at the National level but with all due respect I don't agree with your assessment of what resulted from the changes.

From my experience there is no class/division/group for a car like my sahara beige car or George's 5600 mile willow green 914-6. Especially not Preservation Group where the emphasis is on ultilization. The PCR's discourage perfect, original extremely low mileage garage queens from participating. These cars don't have a chance in hell of winning if there is a clean daily driver in the same class. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm just saying it isn't fun playing if you know you don't have a chance of winning.

On the other hand, the National judges will reward someone in the Restoration Group who spends $250,000 restoring their 1965 356 coupe.

So on one hand the rules encourage you to spend a quarter of a million dollars to make your 356 look better than it did when it was new. And on the other hand the rules discourage someone else for preserving their all original 35 year old car.

Now like I said in my previous post, maybe the rules have changed in the last year. Someone said there was a Preservation Full Group. Is this true? If so then that changes everything. I only remember their being a Preservation Touring Group.

[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Feb 28 2007, 04:13 PM' post='869004']

Originality slowly became more important, to the point that there were few participants in most classes. PCA wisely began changing the rules, so not to kill the event for the masses. Seems to work well today. Just about anyone can play, and that's good. Purist, neo-purist, drivers can all play within the guidlines for each group. No one has to be shamed because his 914 (or whatever)has some personalized attributes to it, so long as they register for the proper class & do a little cleaning. I like it! Let's everyone play on equal ground. But that's at Parade level.

that was me at the top getteing the catagories WRONG. Thanks for the great discussion. I don't have the experience to know what you guys do, so I appreciate the sharing.

The 2007 PCA Concour classification has changed little from last year. All 914's (given the age), qualify for either Restoration Full, Restoration Touring or Preservation Touring (Preparation class being for newer Porsches).

The difference between "Full" and "Touring" is that the undercarriage is not judged in the "Touring" catagory. BTW "Touring" classification prevents you from being judged for Group and Division winners. (True CW's take note).

The determination of whether you qualify for Preservation? (following from the PCR's)

"The grouping "preservation" has both cosmetic and mechanical connotations. It implies that the entered Porsche has most, if not all, of its original factory parts and surfaces such as paint, upholstery and carpet, with most non-service items such as rubber seals and trim original to the automobile. The paint color must be the original color. The carpet and upholstery must be the original color and fabric, with no comprehensive replacement. The engine and transaxle must be original with no visible upgrades. Porsches not fitting this description (e.g. not preserved) do not belong in this group.

The Kardex (build data sheet) for the automobile is required and will be examined by the judges. (See Appendix III for instructions for obtaining the build data for your Porsche and samples of acceptable versions of the Kardex/Authenticity
documents.) Automobiles without such documentation can be shown but will not be judged.

The documented history of the automobile should be present including the current owners date of acquisition. Primary judging emphasis is on the preservation of the automobile as built by the factory, with secondary emphasis on presentation. Nonstandard reproduction parts are subject to demerits. (If the judge can tell the part is a reproduction, by definition, it is nonstandard.)"

What I haven't been able to determine is the definition of "most" (how far can one go in replacing items?) and "non-service items" (if something subject to wear and tear, isn't it serviceable able? Otherwise, nearly everything on the vehicle would be a considered a "non-service" item, especially if the car seldom sees the light of day).

Following the PCR's, should I have my windshield replaced and hood repainted (both suffering extensively from sand blasting on my trip back from last year's Parade) and receive demerits, or leave them as is?

BTW, very nice 914.

From how I read the PCR's, you'd have limited success in the "Preservation" category. Though I suspect you'd more than hold your own in the in either "Restoration" class.

Here's a portion of thethe PCR's "Restoration" designation:

"The grouping "Restoration" implies that the entered Porsche has been repainted, reupholstered, re-carpeted, trim re-plated, with non-service items such as rubber seals and trim replaced in a comprehensive manner. The paint color need not be the original color. The upholstery need not be the original color or fabric. The engine and/or transaxle may have been upgraded or replaced entirely. Porsches not fitting this description (e.g. not restored) do not belong in this group. The Kardex (build data sheet) for the automobile is not required and will not be examined by the judge"

Apparently, I need a review of the current PCR's! You guys make valid points.

I'm off to PCA to get current PCR's. Will advise after review.

James - how are you? Doing better I hope!

Pat

I had one PCA Parade judge suggest that I would have better luck in the Restoration Group. That remark really pissed me off. How would you like your car with a 34 year old paint job going up against a $15,000 Paterek repaint?

The other area in my opinion that needs attention is the fact that the judges in Preservation Group judge you the owner as much as the car. The story of your ownership, meaning the dialog you have with the judges can and will have a major impact on their subjective scoring. Only those that have been through this know exactly what I'm saying.

I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again. I had one judge suggest that I autocross and do driver's educations with my Sahara Beige 914 so I would have a better change in the "PCA Parade Concours Preservation Group Concours de Elegance". I knew right then and there that I would never do another Parade Concours.

Funny how the Pebble Beach Concours de Elegance found a way to fairly judge original unrestored cars from the 20's and 30's and we can't figure out how to judge a 914.

What I've learned over the years is that the only person's opinion of my car(s) that matters to me is my own. If it meets my expectations, then I'm a very happy man. And it does or should I say they do. And my expectations are very high.

Its one thing to complain but I've been tought to offer solutions if you feel there is a problem. So I sent a fairly long letter to two people related to the PCA concours back in August of 2003. My suggestion was to get back to judging the cars and not the owner. I also suggested adding a Preservation "FULL" to the group. Here is part of that letter.

In my opinion, cars in the preservation group should be judged for what they are. If the car has 22,000 miles and is 30 years old, it should be judged on how well it was preserved for 22,000 miles over 30 years. If a car is 12 years old and has 140,000 miles, it should be judged on how well it was preserved for 140,000 miles over a 12 year period. You would expect to see more stone chips and a few more scratches on the car with the higher mileage. If the car with 140,000 miles doesn't have a scratch, a chip or any signs of wear, the judges should question that. On the other hand, if a 30 year old car with 22,000 miles has numerous chips and scratches that too should be questioned. Judging the cars for what they are levels the playing field. This is especially important when judging the final four division winners. Just picking the car with the highest mileage at this point may not be a true representation of the best preserved car.

The issue I see with the current Preservation Group rules is that it discourges the best of the marque from participating. Which brings up the question, "Why would we not want the best of the marque entered in the Parade Concours d'Elegance Preservation Group"? At first I didn't quite understand why all Preservation cars were considered "Touring". After the final judging I had a much better understanding of it's meaning. What I learned was, the Preservation Group is really the Everyday Driver Group.

After the induced coma for 4 weeks in Nov/Dec to deal with pancreatitis which shut down my kidneys and liver. the planned removal of the gall bladder (February) was moved up to early January with further infections requiring a 2 week stay. The procedure was complicated and required a left to right cut across the chest under the ribs. Still sore, and has limited my movement. I've got another 2-3 weeks of recovery at this point.

So much for stripping the undercoating on the 914-6 this winter.

At the Hersey Parade a 1975 914-4 beat out George's unused 914-6. The 914-4 had bunch of miles on it which surely factored into the judging.

BTW, the current PCR's I believe do address your opinion. Check out the Judging Standards section.

Well I am learning even more. I think I was entered as Restoration, which correlates with the catagorization I'm reading here. I'm glad to see a rebuilt car like mine do well, but I was really surprised by Steve's comment that he would not want to go up against a repaint. To me that seems to reflect a mismatch too, although I think my own definition of a PERFECT 914 would have all it's original, non-wear items intact. Original paint is not ever reproduced. Can't do it. Time now being y'know 2000 something. Original carpet and calipers and clamps. Original paint. Bumpers. Chrome. Thats cool. Thats LOVE and committment. Otherwise it is just how much $ can you throw. Now mine (and prolly most of the folks on the board) is mostly DIY. Except the paint, which when you look close enough to see the crap embedded in it in a few spots. Thats what an $800 paint job will get ya- Most of my investment is time, but it could be just $. A car kept original takes that kind of investment too- work you can't pay people to do because it is so peculiar- everything from cleaning each blade of a foglight grill to changing the oil more often than need- and maybe so far as rebuilding wear components- major and minor. My concours had a few 356s that looked like they fit my criteria for originality but they were overshadowed by the 75 mile 930 and GT-2 RS. I don't think they were trophy winners, though. I think they should be. Hopefully the restructuring of the catagories will seperate those disparate entities so respect is paid for the right attribute- true preservation, or rebuilt.

I can't disagree with anything you've said, other than the 930 comparison. Anything newer than 20 years old would be placed in the Preparation class.

As memory serves me (and it has been failing a lot lately), there used to be a Preparation class for all years. I'd opt to add this to the current Restoration and Preservation cllasses to cover situations where the entrant makes due with the condition/orginality of the car and places emphasis on just how clean the car is.

Well, I'll have to say that I'm in favor of going retro a bit. I think the whole thing has become WAY too complicated, as well as confusing.

I know I'll draw criticism here, but I'm in favor 5 classes (Parade only).

Class 1: Full concours. All street Porsches, regardless of year or model. Everything on the car is judged AND touched. Enter at your own risk. Have some forgotten smudge of grease in some distant corner? Too bad - you should have gotten it. Car's been repainted? Fine, but you'd better have to original patina, color and degree of orange peel. Originality a premier criteria, but restoration OK. You'd just better have your ducks in row! Head-to-head competition. Points for age since restoration or repaint. No points for mileage. OK with points for mileage driven to the event. No model distinction. The judges need to be the absolute very best - knowledgeable in all Porsche models. Maybe use a travelling group of model-specific experts to answer originality questions. Yeah, I know, the degree of complexity is significant between models, but concours is concours. Try some multi-marque events - think those aren't tough to judge? Same scenario. Look, if you enter this class you're of the belief that yours is the best - and it had better be. People use "concours awards" to try to boost the value of their cars all the time. Let's make it mean something. I'm ready (as always) to go against anything from a GT3 to a GS, because I think mine is better. Maybe not, but that's my mind-think. I've beaten plenty of vintage Ferraris, T-Birds, Vettes through the years - and been beaten by some too. If you're really hardcore, you're not afraid to go up against megabuck resto's in this class. Win? Great! Lose? You've been beaten by someone better & you learn from it. Bring your documentation! Trophies awarded if necessary.

Class 2: Full Preparation. Same model classes as Class 1 - all street models. Points given for age & mileage, provided the car has not been restored, as well as miles driven to event. Same originality criteria, though scaled back x%. So, if you're 914 was originally black & you changed to yellow, you'll lose some points - less if it was done fully, than if your door jambs are still black. All areas of the car are judged, but no touch by the judges - visual only. Cleanliness takes priority(preparation is paramount). Tasteful modifications (GT fenders?) up to the individual judge, provided the same judgement applies to all cars entered (i.e., flared 356 fenders). Key here is cleanliness & presentaton. Trophies awarded if necessary, but lesser than Class 1.

Class 3: Rise & Shine. All street models. Judged on cleanliness only. No bottom judging. No motor judging No gigs for originality issues. No bonus points. No originality issues. No trophies. Lets the rest play.

Class 4: Race Cars. All models. Of course, no judging on originality. 100% judged on cleanliness. We all know that every ounce of crud hurts a race car, so it should be clean. Bodywork & fit judged as if it were streetable. Top & bottom juding for cleanliness. Trophies awarded if necessary.

Class 5: Historic Vehicles. Everything from Gmund to retired significant race cars, and tractors. Cleanliness paramount. Judges should only be invited special people. No undercarriage judging - these are historic, and most are originals. Trophies awarded if neccessary.

Let's make it simple AND difficult. With Class 1, I'm saying hardcore only! Yep, it's going to be hard for Class 1 people, but that's parts of the challenge. Don't like it - go to Class 2 with a special car. The rest of the participants can play in the other classes too.

My personal take on trophies is - who cares. But, that's just me. I have 6 boxes of these things collecting crud. Yeah, they DID mean something at the time, but they're just in the way these days. I'll leave the trophy thing up to the organizers.

OK, that's my personal take on Parade Concours. Regional/Zone events are completely different.

KISS

Wouldn't that make a great event! I think that sounds really reasonable- a question could your car -yes yours might could pull this off- be in both class 1 and class 2 simultaniously?

Well, of course you'd need to pick on or the other class, and commit to that. But, well prepared 914 could take a shot at either class.

I would say that Class 1 if for those who've done the concours bit a few times successfully, and truely believe they can prepare and win against all comers. If you enter this class, you are saying "bring it on". Get the judges with the longest fingers & let loose on all the cars - a "please touch" sort of event.

In many of the multi-marque events around the country, once you've won your particular class you're required to compete in subsequent years against all prior class winners. Some call it the Premier Class. I like it because it gives new participants a better shot in their normal class. I also know a bunch of people who hate it - try to find a judge qualified to judge a Deusenberg against a 914!