I have started gathering parts to build a large journal 302. This is the engine this car needs to really work. The 350 is made to move a truck, where as a 302 makes the best balance of HP and torque. Ya the parts are expensive about 3 times the cost of a 350 but you only live once.
I'll keep you V-8 guys posted!

I will remind my friends with Z06 Corvettes, They got burned by Chevy with a 400 HP truck engine...

On the other hand.. I assume you are going with the later model 302 roller motor as you are gunna spin it to 8.5K.
Or are you going the old school flat tappet route?

What kind of HP and Torque you looking for?????

Clayton


PS: I never should of sold my 91 Ford Pickup. I loved that 302 engine.

he's not gonna build a "fff"ford ya big dummy!

he's gonna build a high reving sbc 302 [4" bore x3" stroke.

the "spensive part is the crank [custom grind now], the valve train, the rods [gonna have to go with 4130 "H" beams], forged main caps w/splayed 4 bolt/stud, and no reason not to use aftermarket aluminum heads. 8500 rpm and 400 -500 hp easily done with $$$$$$!

I'm doing one right now as well.
Large journal 302 crank, 350 4 bolt block, modern valvetrain and heads.
It should fit the weight and gearing car better, even with the tall gears than the 305.
Hey driveability, where'd yo uget a large journal 3 inch stroke crank? I was just lucky.

Once you have the crank, the rest is standard 350 stuff. My engine builder saved me some dough by moving the wrist pin on a set of 327 pistons instead of using 302 units, saved about $300.
The other trick is to use L-99 5.94 inch rods and you can use 350 pistons.
Or use L99 crank and rods in a LT1 350 w/ 350 pistons block for a modern 302

Mark

I've driven a few 350ish HP 302 914's and they are FUN!!! Still have tq down low (not quite as much) and they just pull and pull and pull and then you shift.

If i was building a SBC i'd try to do a 350 the hard way... 327 crank in a 400 block. still spin 8k rpm but more displacement and more power. The Siameesed bores are a PITA, but do-able.

BJH

Sweet!!
I definately will be watching this....


Andrew

I have been talking to the engine builder, he's a corvette specialist(older ones) and the cost is (to me) quite high. He doesn't come cheep, I am looking at around 4,700 bucks just for the short block. That may be a bit steep but he will do it correctly. The trigger has not been pulled yet. I will have to think hard about this. I know I won't be happy with the car without that combo. I went to school with a guy who had a factory DZ, 302, running a huge cam and 12 to 1 CR. That engine ran incredible. In fact he kept it maintained so well (and babied it too) it lasted over 100k miles. Right now my engine and trans are out of the car and I am doing a lot of Little up grades to the engine compartment wiring, that will take some time. I hope to decide on the engine within a month, if not I will likely go with a G.M. 350 partial short block, maybe a ZZ4 lower end. In the mean time I am driving a 76 Fiat X19 with maybe 70 hp, I have to rev it to 5k between shifts to stay with traffic, 4200 rpm at 65 mph.

Can do alot better than a ZZ4 for the $$$
Want to be sure to use Alu heads, and a lil work makes the edelbrock's work pretty well for the $$.

You having a 930 box already means you dont have to go small displacement. you can build a 350 to turn 8500 rpm's but the extra tq is too much for the 901.

The 302 is a neat motor, but you dont need to limit yourself to keeping small displacement. Explain to your motor builder you want a high RPM motor, and are only moving 2500lbs. Let him build a motor from there (course we want to know what his plans are)

BJH

I hope for that kind of money you are getting a brand new 3" forged crank -
I am not talking about an NOS DZ crank -
There are a few companies that are making them, and they run about $1500 -
Good luck with your project -

I'll be keeping my eye on this one.....Hmmm....8,500 RPM? That will sound fantastic!

Did I miss something; I didn't see mention of him wanting to spin to 8500RPM. That will be an expensive valvetrain; if you want it to last that is.

Andy

Check the thread title.

Let's see....8500 RPM coupled to a 930 gearbox....that's about 220MPH in a vacuum....now add into the equation the aerodynamic drag CD and you have a car that could go very fast! I'm guesing it will be crazy fast in 1st and 2nd gear....then the drag starts to really pile up. I shift my LS6 @ 6800 RPM and can't break 60 mph in 1st....with my 930 box. You'll be able to do so.

You're right; my bad. Kept re-reading the thread and paid no mind to it's title. Sorry, had a senior moment there!

Andys

PS: wbergtho is right on with the gearing comment. That 930 gear spread is well suited to a torquey motor. I vote you stay with a nice 327 or 350 and not worry about huge and expensive RPM. FWIW.

Driveability - I would be scared of a short block that was under $5K and meant to live at 8500rpm. I built a number of small block Chevy race engines including my own and can promise you I built either 3 or 4 302s (can't recall if we used a 400 block and spacers on one - I think I actually built one of the 302 cranks into a 400 block by getting fuzzy - about 6-8 yrs ago).

I did one for a "budget" and in the end I think the stock rods were the weak point and couldn't handle it even with ARP bolts, shotpeened and blah blah. 8500rpm is a LOT of rpm guys! Think of what it takes to make a NASCAR engine live at that rpm for a few hours of running (now they are above 9K but just a few years ago at 8500rpm those engines had serious guts).

And by "live at 8500" I mean put $$ in the crank, rods (really strong steel I-beam or H-beam, but H-beams can be heavy - mine were), pistons and valvetrain.

And wait until you have to change the chrome-silicon spring set each year if you really run it up to that rpm a few track days. Maintenance on an 8500rpm motor is not cheap as that will take a pretty serious cam.

If you want a 302 to live at 8500rpm, it is going to cost you some bucks frankly. I have about $10K in my destroked 400 (353 cubes with 327 crank - a combo I built a ton of for circle track motors and another member mentioned this combo earlier) and I only run it up just over 7300rpm and really don't have anything exotic - stock 400 block that I machined for splay-main 4-bolt caps 2-4, stock 327 steel crank, Eagle 6" H-beams, SRP off-the-shelf (OTS) flattops, Canfield 195cc heads (with serious port work now), cheap(er) Probe shaft-mount rockers, solid tappet Elgin cam that was $60, so forth. Nothing really that outstanding, tho' all the parts are right to spin to 8500rpm, but not live there. The cam won't get it to 8500rpm, but the other parts would go there a couple times

I built a DZ302 to shift between 8500-9000rpm for a 69 Z/28 the guy used for drag racing. Big roller cam, big heads (220cc IIRC), crower crank, ti valves on the intakes, Jesel shaft mount rocker arms, etc. The short block was definitely not cheaper than $5K - the Crower crank was about $1500. I think that was about a $15K carb to pan but it lived at that rpm no problem. I used aluminum rods in that one IIRC. That or another high rpm 302 I did for a Z/28 was a steel I-beam rod motor.

BTW, I think Eagle is making a 302 crank now, but if you are serious about 8500rpm, I don't know if I would trust the Eagle tho' I have built some serious motors with their cranks. By the time you find a stock crank and machine it, lightweight the counterweight, etc and do a heat treat of some sort, probably could just get a Crower crank or similar quality and pay the $1500-$2K.

I have $1100 in my 327 crank to get it down to 42lbs. The 302 crank is lighter to begin with, but to spin that rpm I would pendulum cut/bullnose and knife-edge/drill the rod journals and run a quality light steel I-beam rod and an OTS SRP piston. That = $$.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I can't tell you how many times I had guys come in wanting to build 302s that spin 8500rpm - which seems to be everyone's magic # for that combo, tho' really closer to 9-9500 is where that engine would work best based on rod/stroke ratios, etc.

Lastly, if you assume you want to drive this thing around town periodically, that cam won't make any real power below 6000rpm. My car is too obnoxious to drive with a big tappet cam that maxes the outputs between 5100-7300rpm. Below 3K it will lug the light 914 around the track no problem, but when it gets up to around 5K it takes off like a raped ape straight to 7300 when my shift light comes on.

FWIW.

Well I chickened out Looking at the cost was one factor but mostly I built this car to be a nice driver. For now I am going with a G.M. crate long block and use my heads and a different cam. This will cost under 2K and work perfect for everyday driving. I will however be sourcing the other parts for the 302 and maybe in a year or so it will be ready. You guys know and have said 8k is hard on a small block and can get expensive. Funny thing is my wife is all for it but I had to draw the line for now...

=-)

did u see that top gear episode where the bugatti did it's top speed of over 250MPH?

he said it took only 300HP to get to 150MPH but a total of 1,000HP to get it over 250MPH.

food for thought. =-)

302 Ford...

302 Chevy.

I biffed that one... HARD... LMAOAMyself....

Clayton

I think that is a good choice for now IMO and knowing what you have been looking for up to now which is a good, smooth riding streeter car.

Down the road a really badass combo is a 400 block and 350 crank (the big bore helps to unshroud the valves on a good aftermarket head and with the 3.48 stroke you can get a 6" rod in there and good rod/stroke ratio). Built a couple of those - one for another 69 Camaro drag car (built a lot of ripping small blocks for 69 Camaros!) With the 930 trans you could use a "big but streetable" hyd roller cam, shift just under 7K, the motor would sound fantastic, run forever and should be able to push 500HP on pump gas if built right. 377 cubes assuming .030" over 400 block. SRP has an OTS piston for that combo - go flattop and 11:1 and run 91 pump gas.

That would be the engine I would recommend for a street 914 with a 930 trans. The only reason to shorten the stroke is to spin it and that just isn't a "street" way of thinking. I almost built that for mine but I really like to spin 'em so I went short stroke. Streeter would have been 377 for that light car.

914 aerodynamics @ 160 makes the back tires so light they spin instead of making you go faster This was In Renegade's "peal" and no, Scott wasn't in the car REALLY scary feeling, you dont do anything fast from there.

If you're going to dump the heads and the cam from the longblock, for under $2K you can build a pretty bitchen short block (assuming you are willing to assemble). $3-400 will get you a ready to build 2 or 4 bolt block. Throw in an Eagle/Scat nodular steel crank, forged rods, a set of hypers, and you've got a shortblock rated for 7K/500hp.

$400 Block
$200 Scat 9000 Comp crankshaft
$250 Eagle SIR I-beam rods
$250 Speed Pro flat-top hypereutectic pistons
$100 Piston Rings
$100 Bearings
$175 Balancing
$400 misc (seals, timing gear, oil pump, pushrods, gaskets, shipping)
_________
$1875

You can match or beat these prices on eBay, and get better deals by checking Chevy forums.

I had this exact combo in my Volvo with an LT4 HOTcam and a set of AFR 195CC cylinder heads. I never got a chance to fully tune it*, but it was very smooth, and certainly capable of 400hp once I got the timing sorted. It had great low end power (pushing 1000lbs less I'm sure it'd be even better), and a really nice top end that came on around 3.5K and pulled like crazy to ~6.5K. Your valvetrain is going to be the limiting factor in how high you can rev it.

*it ate a lifter at 300 miles (damn Comp Rs), and the bearings are shot. While it's down I'm throwing in a set of Mahle PowerPak pistons and a forged Eagle 3.50" crank. The valvetrain is getting a set of beehive springs & LS7 lifters, as I originally didn't expect to make power beyond 6K.

Considering your experiences building engines and having your car set-up as it is , your advice is important. I think the time just wasn't right to build a engine of this caliber. I have read some great reviews of your set up / 400 - 350 and did consider that displacement. I built this car to drive, and I hope to have it running again in a few days.
P.S. I just love the sound of your car going down the back straight in the video...

Just to be clear about my combo, I recommend the 400-350 crank combo for 377cubes at .030 over for your car. Mine is actually 400-327 crank for a total of 353 cubes at .030 over. Just wanted to be clear that I used a shorter crank than I recommended to you for a more streetable engine.

I like big bore to stroke ratio motors and getting a good rod to stroke ratio for longevity. That is just my thing. But on that note, I have built a ton of 383-430 cube stroked small blocks for big torque. With the light little car, that 400-350 crank combo would be really really cool and the acceleration would make your eyes bleed Mind you that combo will still make a lot of torque, you might be near 460-480 lb-ft and 500HP with a good hyd roller cam. The key is that those long stroke short rod motors can spin but not for long at high rpm without needing some sort of refresh. A pretty straight-forward combo of stock 400 2-bolt block with studded mains (and a girdle would be good), a stock steel 350 crank, 6" H-beams (they're cheap and we had a set in a 347 budget Ford with 30psi in the 8s!!) and OTS SRP pistons (or Ross,etc) would be an reasonably price combo that would live forever in that car even if you shifted at 7K everytime.

And with a 24"-25" tall tire on the rear you could clear 130mph before going to 4th I hit 141mph with mine before shifting to 4th at 7300rpm. And I clear 60 in 1st which at sea level would be in about 2.9-3.1 seconds assuming I hooked up.


Thanks... I don't think that was 7K yet either on the warmup laps, maybe 5500. but that said, sprint car headers with 3.5" straight thru mufflers slipped on them will make anything sound mean Uncorked tho' and I can't hear myself think...

edit - when you want to build a serious SBC, PM me and I will get you Troy's # in Anaheim. He will give you a good quote (I have always felt he charged too little for his knowledge and capability) and build a solid engine to do exactly what you want. For reputation... he has recently been doing almost all if not all of PI's engines for their Panteras including a twin turbo one right now and has a nationwide reputation and sales. I built roughly a short block a day for about 4 yrs straight and they are still at that level. I had 400 under my belt in one year (some were complete engines of course but all have a short block)

byndbad914,
Thanks for the information, I would like to talk to someone close to home. I am just getting the new engine installed and it should be going tomorrow. My one car garage looks crazy with a 914, engine stand, engine hoist and things stuffed everywhere. I have to push the car in and out to move things around. Post some more videos of the beast!!!!!

I thought the Z06 had 500+ hp. Just saw one on Speed on the Targa-Newfoundland "race" and that thing was smokin' fast.

the C5 car had ~ 400HP, the one you saw is the new C6 Z06 which is probably the coolest car for the $$ ever IMO and I hated Chevies up until the C6 I hate the new headlights (woulda liked to see popups that had a short popup with those fugly little lights v. the huge clear lens and the fugly little lights) but other than that the new Z06 is hands-down the shit! LS7 engine = 427 cubes and 505HP. Schweet car. Built a couple of 4.125" bore 4" stroke LS6 combos but that required sleeving the blocks and such, and Chevy actually paid attention to what was being done and developed one in-house. Very cool direction Chevy is going with their performance (tho' not a big fan of their styling overall other than the Vette). I gave up on Ford a few years back and am was more or less a Ronin until the C6 Z06.

edit - btw it is funny you mention that car as one of my previous posts I mentioned buying a crate LS7 but then deleted it as it was irrelevant with budget constraints. Drive-ability, that LS7 setup would be a very cool swap hint hint nudge nudge...

Well I have the engine in, everything all clean and painted. This one car garage thing is a big pain . I have to make a reservation with the neighbors before starting and braking in the cam etc. My next door neighbor is a real pain in the A*S. Has me down at my town-home board meetings due to noise, there are two homes closer and they have no issues but "SHE" does. Lets see my shoulders hurt, back, neck, from trying to be quiet.
I would love to put a real burner in, but thats for later, now I'll just keep my head down and enjoy this engine.
I have another project looming, my Fiat X19 9 is getting a Honda K20 and a 5 speed. That should push out about 220 hp and be a quick as the 914. I may start that in a few months.

I know where a 2007 ZO6 engine and tranny with ECU and wiring is.

In a back yard in San Bernardino.

The Vette was a dealership car and the mechanic took it out for test run. He got T-Boned in the rear exiting the driveway.

Car is a total write off. Somehow the front clip ended up in a guys backyard.... I wondered how that happened??????

I am trying to get the front suspension for a friend. Makes for a wicked handling and braking Kit Car.

The rear end is still good as are the rear brakes.

I so want this engine and tranny. I can't afford it. And I don't have anything to to put it in. I wonder what it's worth?
500 HP of LS7.... Put it in a 911...????

C

Sounds like an expensive package, I would think the engine would go for a bundle. Sure I would like that!