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less than 12:1 CR, STOCK valve sizes in STOCK head castings and built legal to SCCA E prod rules.

We detuned the combo purposely, with more CR and cam I am positive that this combo could tip the scales at 220+ reliably.

I made this power on the FIRST dyno pull with default settings. Specs of the build that we can share are over on my forums.

Kevin Groot is one happy man, all of us here are as well! Thanks to Kevin for believing in me and my Employee Blake Meredith for his assistance
in getting this project wrapped up after so many changes were made and meeting the deadline for Kevin's first race in late March!

HOLY CRAP!!!

Yep. @8K it still has over 1K RPM of valve control.

nice job, I bet that was a bit or work to tune it to that level...congrats.

Rich

OK....you gonna break down and EVER quote a price??????

Sure, by phone. Got your credit card ready?

Well done, Jake. I'm impressed.

An engine of this level is a different world.. It has well over 400 hours into it and most of that wasn't assembly. I take on VERY few engines like this and by far these are the most expensive engines we can build due to the parts the rule book forces us to use as well as the limitations we have to overcome.

As far as quoting a price, an engine like this one can't be estimated, it can't be quoted... Matter of factly I lost money on this build and it was still expensive, BUT the development and data we attain far supercedes the profit on a project like this.. These engines are our version of the "959"

We are in the process of standardizing all the performer and daily driver series engines for purchase online with a limited amount of customization. We have just now gotten development to the level where we can offer 200HP street engines at known prices. These will be available online through the Type 4 store in just a couple of months from 2056cc all the way through 3 Liters.

Did you use the roller cam setup?

No, conventional lifters. The roller cam is illegal along with 85% of the other things we generally use to make this level of power.

I am looking forward to the engine packages on your site, that will be great.
I just got the extra cash together...so I hope what i need is all in stock...woohoo..

Question Jake, for one season, do you think a 2.0 liter piston with a shaved top would last? by this I mean shave off the top of the piston to make it flat, flycut the heads to get the c/r back.
If I need to re-ring next year, fine.
I will probably build a fresh 2.0 liter next year...just want two motors this year, and the big one is where the money is heading.
Rich

Congratulations, that is quite impressive

The top ring will really hurt.. The top ring on the stock piston is one of the first failure points...!

Well Jake you hit 200+ HP are you going to try for 300 HP?

Today 200 HP is a common occurence here, the last 3 engines we have completed have hit the number or exceeded it... The next 3 should also make the grade, except a 1500cc Land Speed engine that I'll be finishing next week, its a measley 165 ponies but holds 3 speed records!

200HP from 2 liters limited with the rules we have to work with in E production is a huge feat, especially on our first attempt with an "E" spec engine..

300HP.... Well lets just say that by the end of this summer we'll be really close to that number if things work out the way they are shaping up.. It won't be from a 2 Liter engine, it may have started as a 2 Liter, but it'll weigh in at 2.7- 2.9L to attain the big power and on pump gas!

I've gotta stop reading these posts!



my 1.7 is fine
my 1.7 will be fine
my 1.7 is just fine
its going to be fine....

Brer, The 1.7 is a great engine.. They are the most resilient Type 4s that one can create, the term "Takes a beating and keeps on ticking" applies!

BRAVO! great work.

Any chance you could post a sound file (or video) of what the motor sounds like at 7500 rpm?

Fuel management is... carb'd or injection?

40mm Dell's.

Says the man with a shop FULL of 150 h.p. + engines! SO JAke just how many of your cars have a bone stock 1.7? I hate you Jake...... I really hate you







Keep up the INCREDIBLE werk.





Someday......someday.......

Thanks Blake.

And I usually don't understand half of the words!

Ever heard on of those two year old kids in a store who just had his candy bar taken away...

WWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

thats pretty much it...
Rich

Jake, Len, Charles and Blake certainly overachieved on this build!!!!!!!!!

Finally, I'll have some power. It will be very interesting to see how this engine/car stacks up in EP. There are some crazy fast cars in EP. Finally, I should be able to take the fight to them.

She'll be available for the listenin' at several tracks, starting in 10 days or so at Road Atlanta.

Good luck Kevin give them some shit out there

Wow!! Nice motor there Jake!

Kevin, it sounds like a killer motor for EP. That, with the relatively lower weight (compared to the Miatae) should make for one nicely competitive ride.

Can't wait to hear how you do!!

-Josh2

We hope so.... the best cars in EP have in the 8.5 or 9:1 power to weight ratio.... I'm sitting at 9:1 with this setup. We'll know for sure how she stack up soon.

Go Kevin! Your car deserves it, it is one of my favorites. When I win the lottery I'm goin to build one just like it - but 2-tone green.
OK, guess I better click on over to Jake's BBS now. I think the new turbo is a 2013 also?

Blake,
A six? Say it isn't so!
LMAO
Van914

Jake,
Congrats on a great combo. You really are impressive with your 4 cly acheivements.

I always wanted a six in my car.

Brer, I think I am about to show the 1.7 engine some love. I was going to build a 914 for ITC but things have changed. I think I am going to build a bad ass 1.7. I have .040" stocking looking forged pistons and a Tangerine header. I want to see what the little 1.7 will do with some good mods for a street track car.

So how does Kevin know how much to pay?

Just like all my other customers, race or street..

Kevin and I talked about possibilities of this engine early in 2004, price was discussed but wasn't a primary concern as we had to see the viability of the combination before moving forward. This meant nights filled with modeling and simulation for me, as well as 2 seasons full of F prod engines being designed, built tested and put into action at the track.

As soon as my models and flow data supported the fact that we could roughly attain 200HP from this engine Kevin and I worked out a proposal and agreed on a price- this is standard practice here as every engine follows these guidelines. Making this proposal up means taking the model of the engine, calling manufacturers and getting prices for their components, then putting all of that together into 4 pages of detail without a single damn word written in fine print.

The result today is the fact that the price Kevin was given in April of 2004 for this engine remained the same as it was proposed. When I have customers that along for a ride like this one while we are developing new components and combinations they generally get these things for the same cost. If Kevin and I were to enter into the proposal today he would get the same parts, same combo, same dedication but it would have todays prices, about 3K more than he paid for this engine due to development, inflation and the better parts we used that superseded those that were proposed. The same thing is now occuring with my street engine customers that are in work as we speak, as soon as the roller lifters are fully developed they'll all pretty much end up with the lifters for either no added cost, or very little added cost.. That means some people will get 1650 bucks worth of upgrades for not a dime more than the proposed engine with conventional camshaft and lifters.

When we lock in a price, it doesn't change- not even a penny.

This engine took about 1.5 years longer than Kevin and I agreed to. This was due to the constant development we were making that needed to be included in this engine as well as the trials and tribulations that Kevin was facing with getting used to tuning these engines. The added experience and time gave Kevin thekey elements to be able to keep an engine of this caliber alive through tuning and preparation- he did not have this 1.5 years ago and without it an engine like this will end up as a catastrophic failure. Even with the experience he has gained with his back up engine he still has another set of rules to live by with this insane powerplant and the margin of error is basically zero, even with the detuning we instilled into the combo for safety this first season.

Saying that I am not nervous about his initial on track experiences with this engine with his curent experience would be a lie, because I am always concerned when such a beast and it's driver meet for the first few intimate experiences. Kevin and I will be creating checklists, procedures and service intervals and outlines that will rival an aircraft preflight and turnaround inspection because preparation and a thorough understanding of an engine like this is crucial to it's life. His first outing will be in my backyard at Road Atlanta, he is making a trip from the extreme North down here just so Len and I can work with him on set up, tuning, preparation and service.

All an engine like this needs for a recipe to disaster is a clogged main jet, loose nut or bolt or an intake leak- it is not forgiving at all. As Kevin grows to be a better tuner and able to spot changes and correct for weather conditions we'll slowly raise the CR and add some camshaft... Thats all in due time.

I have agreed to service and tune Kevin's back up engine (already running RAT parts) at our cost to assist him with budget and just because he has been an excellent, respectful, patient and loyal client and moreover a friend for the past 3 years through an endeavor that seemed almost impossible to complete at times. Having a client like Kevin as a purchaser for an engine like this is a must, thanks Kevin.

Sorry for the long winded response, but I just wanted to remove some of the mystery associated with how projects like this one are handled here.

Great work Jake! Keep us updated to the success of this motor! ....I understand this motor isnt about price it's about winning! You're a good guy to help Kevin with this project. We are all excited about how this car will do on the track! Hows that other SCCA car coming? Thats the one I'm really excited about!

Thanks...
Not much here is about a price... what we do is expensive, but with the development we do and the components we create its not about the bottom line.. As long as I can work for myself, play with my toys and keep food on the table I really could care less!

Anyway, Im sure everyone will be able to keep up with the engine as it progresses. We'll be keeping the postings about it limited to my forums, so come there for updates.

As for our SCCA F prod car, we will be hitting the track for the first time in May with it.. We are taking a much different approach with this car and engine since Len's primary focus is winning and my primary focus is development that can be utilized for my engine program. I honestly could care less about winning, all I want to do is create 100HP/ liter, rev to 9K and provide winning, reliable power. I know with Len behind the wheel that I won't have to worry about the winning part, he has that under control!

we should have a primary and two back up engines (configured differently) assembled and tested by July..A 4th engine will be built only for development purposes, it'll never go into the car just live on the dyno with change after change made to it.

A few years ago Jake and I had a discussion that started this whole plan. I have every confidence is my ability to get this suspension working appropriately.... but I don't have that kind of confidence in my ability to develop a real engine for the car. Jake is the man to do that and as far as I'm concerned, the ONLY man to make the kind of power this engine needs to make to be competitive. Without this partnership, I would not have pushed the suspension development as far as I have.

BTW.... I'm plenty nervous about putting this much behind me on the track, so appropriate restraint must be exercised....... appropriate restraint must be exercised........ appropriate restraint must be exercised........ appropriate restraint must be exercised........ appropriate restraint must be exercised.

Now, the next step is to get some real results.

Jake...Does the between races maint. on this motor include opening it up? New rings? Head work? Or mop it off, check leakdown & go racing? I've crewed for both sides & am just curious.

There's an excellent post on the subject of longevity expectations on the 914club website.

914club discussion on EP engine

Hope I get to pass it thru tech in a couple of weeks!

Honestly at this point we do not know... If it is similar to our FP engines it can go a full season without more than oil changes, head torques and valve adjustments.

As I discussed in the 914 club post Kevin linked up, the killer part of this combo is the rod bearings. We will be doing a preventive maintenance early tear down of the engine mid way through the season to try and see the trends of wear and etc the engine is experiencing.

With the lower CR of this engine I do believe that the rod bearings will live longer. The surface prep and cryoing of the crank as well as the bearing coatings we have used coupled to the running clearances we used should keep things alive OK, but the rod bearings are the weak link in this chain, no doubt.

The rest of the engine is virtually comprised of the same level of parts that make up the FP engines that we build and they live for a full season all the time and are competetive as well....

Everything at this point is "To be Determined"... we'll be taking plenty of notes and creating logs in an effort to build a data base of info to help Kevin keep this beast alive.

A couple quick component questions: Cast Iron or Nicki cylinders? Welded or billet crank? Also, you said 'under' 12:1 compression ratio. Does that mean around 12:1, or anywhere below 12:1 and you're not going to tell us where. I'm just trying to get some idea of heat management here. Thanks for whatever info you'll offer.
Mark D.

Nickies... With an engine like this, if something is legal and it has the capabilities of heat reduction, friction reduction and weight reduction that Nickies do its dumb not to use them!


STOCK crank ... If you saw it you'd be scared to death!


LESS than 12:1



With the components used and set up/processes heat is not this engine's biggest enemy...

I have avenues to explore IF the temps are elevated above what we want to see.

Thanks.
Mark D.