hey all!
fullflowing question.
i have a 38mm pump (yes 38mm) with gears supported by both sides, and a regular cover plate on it. (cant find manufacturer - got it from steve stromberg :cringe: ) i do not know the pump manufacturer, so thus i cannot get a full flow cover for it. i like the larger pump because i have a front cooler and -10 lines.
i want to full flow my motor....
so the passage from the pump that goes diagonally upwards toward the filter and 1st galley plug....
i could tap that galley with an elbow to EXIT the case and go to a remote filter... and come back into the case through the standard galley plug next to it....
but my question- to make it more simple.... and not require two elbows out of the case...
does anyone make a filter blockoff plate with an AN fitting in the bottom passage? thus i would not have to use a second elbow-
Full Version: full flow question
from what i understand , with a tpye 4 you do not want to do that. you need to get a oil punp plate with a out let for the oil to be pumped out there. themn there it a plug just up from there and this will be for your return. if you get a full flow system with filter relocator and oil cooler with fan they usually come with every thing you need, plus a galley plug kit from jake, and you should be set. it looks like this.
what is the difference? i understand where you are putting the oil back into the case....
why is it any different if the oil leaves the case after going up the passage toward the filter console? less bends then your setup.
why is it any different if the oil leaves the case after going up the passage toward the filter console? less bends then your setup.
i asked jake the same guestion and he would be better at answering that, i cannot explain it like he does. but you will get better flow this way.
Aaron, you would be better off plugging both holes and going with a full flow pump cover and then back into the main galley case with the big elbow - The holes you are referring are way too small to support the fluid motility the pump is able to produce - this will lead to greatly exaceberated friction and heat, not to mention inability to support the flow. You would actually be heating the oil very much BEFORE it even goes into the galleys which would tax an already taxed stock cooler.Trying to push that much oil thru those tiny holes would give a temperature rise of (about or around) 70-100 degrees, in addition to sapping energy and inviting foaming - WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much !!!
If you are already running 180 degree oil + 100 (worst case) = disaster!!!
Pump it all directly into the main galley - I would also TEE it off from the main and back INTO the #1 bearing plug on the opposite side of crank snout. Jegs and summit and aircraft spruce and specialty carry the required AN fittings for very cheap. This way the volume has somewhere to go and the number 1-2 bearings' life is exponentially enhanced!!! I was going to do that with nandos, but he went with the low volume shadeck pump and it was unnecessary - Shim the cam pressure relief about 1/8 inch, shim the cooler relief abuot a 1/16th - this will help pump more oil up to the valvetrain also......
41ghost did it the way most do - if you see on nando's thread he actually had the mount modified so all those bends are not there. A 90 degree bend reduces flow about 35% on average. ONE 90 degree I can personally live with. But see on his how it goes back into the case - that main galley is larger than the holes leading to-from the pump/filter, albeit only a little - and see the other plug on the opposite side of the crank - when you look at the exploded oil flow pattern - oil is fed THRU one bearing which FEEDS the other. This si why there are so many #1 bearing failures - by teeing the main line (3/8") into a 1/8" feeder line directly into this plug, you are giving flow somewhere to go AND helping those two bearings..
QUOTE(jwalters @ Mar 24 2007, 07:11 PM) 
41ghost did it the way most do - if you see on nando's thread he actually had the mount modified so all those bends are not there. A 90 degree bend reduces flow about 35% on average. ONE 90 degree I can personally live with. But see on his how it goes back into the case - that main galley is larger than the holes leading to-from the pump/filter, albeit only a little - and see the other plug on the opposite side of the crank - when you look at the exploded oil flow pattern - oil is fed THRU one bearing which FEEDS the other. This si why there are so many #1 bearing failures - by teeing the main line (3/8") into a 1/8" feeder line directly into this plug, you are giving flow somewhere to go AND helping those two bearings..
do you not see the 2 90's at the pump cover?
oil will be returned via the same galley plug everyone uses (blue checkmark)
ALSO - the passage from the pump exit to the filter will be drilled to ~7/16 the same as the pump output.... read that in books, and seen it done on a few motors.
so you can either get the oil out of the case via the galley plug in RED or buy putting a fitting on the blockoff plate on the bottom passage.... and thus eliminating a second elbow.
your argument about all the 90's reducing flow is accurate to a degree.
look at your full flow cover. oil is pumped at the wall where it used to exit and go toward the filter. makes a 90* left toward the fan. then makes a 90 degree right toward the oil cooler side of the motor....
thus i do not buy your argument.
ALSO - the passage from the pump exit to the filter will be drilled to ~7/16 the same as the pump output.... read that in books, and seen it done on a few motors.
so you can either get the oil out of the case via the galley plug in RED or buy putting a fitting on the blockoff plate on the bottom passage.... and thus eliminating a second elbow.
your argument about all the 90's reducing flow is accurate to a degree.
look at your full flow cover. oil is pumped at the wall where it used to exit and go toward the filter. makes a 90* left toward the fan. then makes a 90 degree right toward the oil cooler side of the motor....
thus i do not buy your argument.
Ok,
1. Those elbows are actually 2 45 degree ones -which makes 1 90 - (-not two 90's as you presume.) That makes one 90 + another 90 at the elbow.
2. I never said anything about the CASE passages - that is something only a select few can negotiate around ( making the case 'dry' and running only external lines, believe me it CAN be done and not have a single solitary hard 90 anywhere)
3. Take your pump and look at the outlet hole size (you do not have to measure, it is noticeable to a blind person) and compare to the available diameter of the case passage you want to use - the difference in size is prolific. Do not 'take' my word for it, just look, even on aftermarket pumps the difference is profound...
4. You WILL heat the oil unbelieveably -AND- you WILL cause unnecessary friction and sap energy to pump oil in a pump that has nowhere to go. I can quote physics and all that but will not - the difference in sizes of pump holes vs. case holes says it all.
5. There is a huge difference between a hard ninety and a sweeping ninety. A simple check method would be to take a straight piece of PVC pipe and pour a measured amount of liquid through it and time it. Now put a hard 90 in the same pipe, make it the same overall length and time it again - the results are startling ( I say this to anyone else who is inquisitive)
6. The oil cooler has three passages. Cooler in, cooler out, and cooler bypass. Even when the oil is hot and fluid, a sizable portion STILL BYPASSES THE COOLER!! Only 50-65% of all the oil is actually cooled!! This gives an overall increase in fluid passage and largely negates those bends....
7. The pump is another product of fluid motion. It does not matter whether it has an outlet cover or not - just look at the internals. You have so many mm's of pump gear and ONLY so many mm's of outlet size. The natural outlet size is intangible because the case hole is nowhere near the same size -
BUT-
The outlet hole on a full flow cover IS the same size as that of the main galley....
If you have a haynes, open it up -the oil diagram is there, - it is all there in black and white (again, for those inquisitve)
1. Those elbows are actually 2 45 degree ones -which makes 1 90 - (-not two 90's as you presume.) That makes one 90 + another 90 at the elbow.
2. I never said anything about the CASE passages - that is something only a select few can negotiate around ( making the case 'dry' and running only external lines, believe me it CAN be done and not have a single solitary hard 90 anywhere)
3. Take your pump and look at the outlet hole size (you do not have to measure, it is noticeable to a blind person) and compare to the available diameter of the case passage you want to use - the difference in size is prolific. Do not 'take' my word for it, just look, even on aftermarket pumps the difference is profound...
4. You WILL heat the oil unbelieveably -AND- you WILL cause unnecessary friction and sap energy to pump oil in a pump that has nowhere to go. I can quote physics and all that but will not - the difference in sizes of pump holes vs. case holes says it all.
5. There is a huge difference between a hard ninety and a sweeping ninety. A simple check method would be to take a straight piece of PVC pipe and pour a measured amount of liquid through it and time it. Now put a hard 90 in the same pipe, make it the same overall length and time it again - the results are startling ( I say this to anyone else who is inquisitive)
6. The oil cooler has three passages. Cooler in, cooler out, and cooler bypass. Even when the oil is hot and fluid, a sizable portion STILL BYPASSES THE COOLER!! Only 50-65% of all the oil is actually cooled!! This gives an overall increase in fluid passage and largely negates those bends....
7. The pump is another product of fluid motion. It does not matter whether it has an outlet cover or not - just look at the internals. You have so many mm's of pump gear and ONLY so many mm's of outlet size. The natural outlet size is intangible because the case hole is nowhere near the same size -
BUT-
The outlet hole on a full flow cover IS the same size as that of the main galley....
If you have a haynes, open it up -the oil diagram is there, - it is all there in black and white (again, for those inquisitve)
i see your point. but as long as i'm building this 2270 kit i would like to have it set up as jake says to do it its not my set, up its the way jake r. told me to do it. for the best flow. if you rout it your way you will still have 2 90's to go through. also you can come strait out of the cover if you want to cut your motor mount on both sides. the point is, no mater what you will have two 90's because the fan housing is in the way. i'm sure if one wanted to get creative you could take out the plugs and enlarge the original channels and replug them and come strait out the original filter mount area and back in where you have it marked in blue, or even return in the original oil filter area also. enlarging these chanels may be the best way, but not sure on that. some one would have to do it to prove to.
QUOTE(jwalters @ Mar 24 2007, 08:44 PM)
Ok,
1. Those elbows are actually 2 45 degree ones -which makes 1 90 - (-not two 90's as you presume.) That makes one 90 + another 90 at the elbow.
not speaking of those elbows (notch the engine mount instead). read my response, talking about the ones at the pump cover. from the gear to the wall of the pump (now blocked) out to the cover, then makes a hard right to exit the covers. seems like 2 90's to me
2. I never said anything about the CASE passages - that is something only a select few can negotiate around ( making the case 'dry' and running only external lines, believe me it CAN be done and not have a single solitary hard 90 anywhere)
not sure what you are bringing this up for. im returning oil to the same galley you used on nando's motor
3. Take your pump and look at the outlet hole size (you do not have to measure, it is noticeable to a blind person) and compare to the available diameter of the case passage you want to use - the difference in size is prolific. Do not 'take' my word for it, just look, even on aftermarket pumps the difference is profound...
understood. that is being drilled to the pump outlets size as is noted in post 1 on this topic
4. You WILL heat the oil unbelieveably -AND- you WILL cause unecessary friction and sap energy to pump oil in a pump that has nowhere to go. I can quote physics and all that but will not - the difference in sizes of pump holes vs. case holes says it all. how am i heating the oil unbelievably by still bypassing the stock restrictive filter console, and going through an enlarged passage in the case. has less bends/corners in it than a pump cover exit. sorry, less corners than stock[b]
5. There is a huge difference between a hard ninety and a sweeping ninety. A simple check method would be to take a straight piece of PVC pipe and puor a measured amount of liquid through it and time it. Now put a hard 90 in the smae pipe, make it the same overall length and time it again - the results are startling ( I say this to anyone else who is inquisitive) [b] yes, i understand fluid flow
6. The oil cooler has three passages. Cooler in, cooler out, and cooler bypass. Even when the oil is hot and fluid, a sizable portion STILL BYPASSES THE COOLER!! Only 50-65% of all the oil is actually cooled!! This gives an overall increase in fluid passage and largely negates those bends....
car has a setrab front cooler, and 25 feet of -10 line (5/8 ID), bypass pistons have both been replaced with the larger version that preloads the spring, bypassing less oil. same as shimming.
7. The pump is another product of fluid motion. It does not matter whether it has an outlet cover or not - just look at the internals. You have so many mm's of pump gear and ONLY so many mm's of outlet size. The natural outlet size is intangible because the cae hole is nowhere near the same size -
understood. the pump exit galley is being enlarged to pump outlet size.
BUT-
The outlet hole on a full flow cover IS the same size as that of the main galley....
If you have a haynes, open it up -the oil diagram is there, - it is all there in black and white (again, for those inquisitve)
know it well...
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 24 2007, 11:22 PM)
look at your full flow cover. oil is pumped at the wall where it used to exit and go toward the filter. makes a 90* left toward the fan. then makes a 90 degree right toward the oil cooler side of the motor....
thus i do not buy your argument.
Yes, you are correct to a degree, but only, and only IF, you do not take the time to smooth the passage with a dremel or other tool, and simply remove the cover from its wrapping and use it as-is The covers I use, the outlet hole compared to the fitting hole, is SOOO close together, that I can easily smooth the transition and make it less than a 20 degree sweeping bend.
These covers are very easy to manipulate...
QUOTE(41ghost @ Mar 24 2007, 08:55 PM)
i see your point. but as long as i'm building this 2270 kit i would like to have it set up as jake says to do it its not my set, up its the way jake r. told me to do it. for the best flow. if you rout it your way you will still have 2 90's to go through. also you can come strait out of the cover if you want to cut your motor mount on both sides. the point is, no mater what you will have two 90's because the fan housing is in the way. i'm sure if one wanted to get creative you could take out the plugs and enlarge the original channels and replug them and come strait out the original filter mount area and back in where you have it marked in blue, or even return in the original oil filter area also. enlarging these chanels may be the best way, but not sure on that. some one would have to do it to prove to.
only ONE 90 (on the return like everyone does) if you exit out the filter console block off plate
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 24 2007, 11:55 PM)
QUOTE(jwalters @ Mar 24 2007, 08:44 PM)
Ok,
1. Those elbows are actually 2 45 degree ones -which makes 1 90 - (-not two 90's as you presume.) That makes one 90 + another 90 at the elbow.
not speaking of those elbows (notch the engine mount instead). read my response, talking about the ones at the pump cover. from the gear to the wall of the pump (now blocked) out to the cover, then makes a hard right to exit the covers. seems like 2 90's to me
2. I never said anything about the CASE passages - that is something only a select few can negotiate around ( making the case 'dry' and running only external lines, believe me it CAN be done and not have a single solitary hard 90 anywhere)
not sure what you are bringing this up for. im returning oil to the same galley you used on nando's motor
3. Take your pump and look at the outlet hole size (you do not have to measure, it is noticeable to a blind person) and compare to the available diameter of the case passage you want to use - the difference in size is prolific. Do not 'take' my word for it, just look, even on aftermarket pumps the difference is profound...
understood. that is being drilled to the pump outlets size as is noted in post 1 on this topic
4. You WILL heat the oil unbelieveably -AND- you WILL cause unecessary friction and sap energy to pump oil in a pump that has nowhere to go. I can quote physics and all that but will not - the difference in sizes of pump holes vs. case holes says it all. how am i heating the oil unbelievably by still bypassing the stock restrictive filter console, and going through an enlarged passage in the case. has less bends/corners in it than a pump cover exit. sorry, less corners than stock[b]
5. There is a huge difference between a hard ninety and a sweeping ninety. A simple check method would be to take a straight piece of PVC pipe and puor a measured amount of liquid through it and time it. Now put a hard 90 in the smae pipe, make it the same overall length and time it again - the results are startling ( I say this to anyone else who is inquisitive) [b] yes, i understand fluid flow
6. The oil cooler has three passages. Cooler in, cooler out, and cooler bypass. Even when the oil is hot and fluid, a sizable portion STILL BYPASSES THE COOLER!! Only 50-65% of all the oil is actually cooled!! This gives an overall increase in fluid passage and largely negates those bends....
car has a setrab front cooler, and 25 feet of -10 line (5/8 ID), bypass pistons have both been replaced with the larger version that preloads the spring, bypassing less oil. same as shimming.
7. The pump is another product of fluid motion. It does not matter whether it has an outlet cover or not - just look at the internals. You have so many mm's of pump gear and ONLY so many mm's of outlet size. The natural outlet size is intangible because the cae hole is nowhere near the same size -
understood. the pump exit galley is being enlarged to pump outlet size.
BUT-
The outlet hole on a full flow cover IS the same size as that of the main galley....
If you have a haynes, open it up -the oil diagram is there, - it is all there in black and white (again, for those inquisitve)
know it well...
Ok, I see where you are going - based on your pump being gargantuan -I was estimating the available wall thickness left over IF you were to drill the passages out. I know on a simple HV pump - the pump outlet is actually .010 larger than safe available case passage (Cast iron is ALOT stronger than aluminum. Many Ford c-4 transmissions have serious problems with ATF punching holes in the selector plate, and line pressure there is only 35 PSI, Just as an illustrative example) For 75 psi of pressure,with the flow the pump is capable of, you need a min of .095 wall thickness to effectively contain without bursting / punching thru.
We are on the same page here tho -
you made me go out into the cold garage (brrr.... 75 degrees LOL)
red - enlarged oil pump output passage.
green - elbow back into the case.
blue - fitting on a block off plate.
btw - this pump has worked great for the 2-3 yrs it has been installed. non full flow oil routing...
red - enlarged oil pump output passage.
green - elbow back into the case.
blue - fitting on a block off plate.
btw - this pump has worked great for the 2-3 yrs it has been installed. non full flow oil routing...
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 25 2007, 12:12 AM)
you made me go out into the cold garage (brrr.... 75 degrees LOL)
red - enlarged oil pump output passage.
green - elbow back into the case.
blue - fitting on a block off plate.
btw - this pump has worked great for the 2-3 yrs it has been installed. non full flow oil routing...
Ok- now take this: instead of using a hard ninety - bend some 5005 aluminum tubing int o a broad sweep FROM the filter outlet(entrance, you know what I / we mean) and sweep it back into the case - Know algebra do you, remember the term "parabola"???
Just make sure there is enough meat in the case itself to accept the drilling!!!!
if you are racing you may want to look at it differently than the way it is set up on my car. i have a old case that rick cleaned up like new i'll take a look at it and maybe do some drilling and repluging, just to see what i can do with it. it would be nice to use the original oil filler holes but you will still have one 90 within the case, or one 90 comming out of the front of the case. or use two 45's comming out . that would even be better, to lessen the turn. when i was building this i was toying with comming strait out and going strait through the fan housing with the hoses ' i'm sure that would work too. you would have to drill and tap to come strait out the pump cover and plug the intended exit hole but i think that would work great too. just silicone around the holes where the hose passes through the housing.
so now you understand the approach.... probably not enough room for a sweeping AN 90 behind the shroud....
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
Boy, haven't done this in awhile...QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 24 2007, 09:12 PM)
you made me go out into the cold garage (brrr.... 75 degrees LOL)
red - enlarged oil pump output passage.
green - elbow back into the case.
blue - fitting on a block off plate.
btw - this pump has worked great for the 2-3 yrs it has been installed. non full flow oil routing...
yes enlarge those passeges.
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 25 2007, 12:21 AM)
so now you understand the approach.... probably not enough room for a sweeping AN 90 behind the shroud....
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
No, there is plenty of room!! I measured about 2 1/2 inches behind mine and nandos.... Just keep the sweep small - avoid a 'hard' 90 is all - you can do it!
No, no block off plates - drill, thread and pipe attachment fit - while you are at it, tap and plug the other hole. Just use heavy grease on the tap, it will catch the shavings ..
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 24 2007, 09:21 PM)
so now you understand the approach.... probably not enough room for a sweeping AN 90 behind the shroud....
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
not that i know of but it would be easilly made, or just tap the hole.
QUOTE(jwalters @ Mar 24 2007, 09:27 PM)
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 25 2007, 12:21 AM)
so now you understand the approach.... probably not enough room for a sweeping AN 90 behind the shroud....
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
No, there is plenty of room!! I measured about 2 1/2 inches behind mine and nandos.... Just keep the sweep small - avoid a 'hard' 90 is all - you can do it!
No, no block off plates - drill, thread and pipe attachment fit - while you are at it, tap and plug the other hole. Just use heavy grease on the tap, it will catch the shavings ..
thats an interesting idea. case isnt being taken apart...... i should (have to!) beable to get all the shavings out. with the oil pump to filter passage, you have access to both ends to clean it out (and a galley plug)
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 25 2007, 12:21 AM)
so now you understand the approach.... probably not enough room for a sweeping AN 90 behind the shroud....
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
No, no plate, just dril and tap for a pipe fitting - while you are at it, tap and plug the unused hole next to it...
There is plenty of room behind the shroud! in that area there is no webbing or block-offs - plenty of room to bend up some 5005 into a nice sweep!
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 25 2007, 12:29 AM)
QUOTE(jwalters @ Mar 24 2007, 09:27 PM)
QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Mar 25 2007, 12:21 AM)
so now you understand the approach.... probably not enough room for a sweeping AN 90 behind the shroud....
case is already tapped with 3/8 npt.
so the original question. IS THERE a block off plate for the filter console with a fitting installed on the lower passage?
No, there is plenty of room!! I measured about 2 1/2 inches behind mine and nandos.... Just keep the sweep small - avoid a 'hard' 90 is all - you can do it!
No, no block off plates - drill, thread and pipe attachment fit - while you are at it, tap and plug the other hole. Just use heavy grease on the tap, it will catch the shavings ..
thats an interesting idea. case isnt being taken apart...... i should (have to!) beable to get all the shavings out. with the oil pump to filter passage, you have access to both ends to clean it out (and a galley plug)
Disregard my last / last post - no more for me tonight--
Yes, it is common for us to use grease on the taps to catch everything -customers will not pay 45 grand to have their cfm-46 - 29 stage turbine tore apart just for a hole tapping---use the really heavy moly-"B" it works great. Have some cotton swabs nearby to get every last bit out...
This is comedy 
Aaron I'll make two plates and give you one since I need one also.
I'm doing the same thing and drilled out my passage to matched the outlet of the pump and there is plenty of wall thickness left.
Aaron I'll make two plates and give you one since I need one also.
I'm doing the same thing and drilled out my passage to matched the outlet of the pump and there is plenty of wall thickness left.
comedy?
i feel so misunderstood!
i feel so misunderstood!
Yo Aaron -how big of a drill bit did you have to use to bore out the case??? I am just curious as to just how big that big pump is - - The engine I am building right now is going into my airplane and I was thinking of two possible routes
1. - Use the dry sump pump and go full dry -
2. Keep the sump wet with an inverted pick-up / breather supply.
To use #2 I would need a very high capacity pump.............
1. - Use the dry sump pump and go full dry -
2. Keep the sump wet with an inverted pick-up / breather supply.
To use #2 I would need a very high capacity pump.............
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