I am the Moderator of this forum. As such, it is my purpose to maintain the continuity of its purpose and to make certain that the readership gets what they want.

When this forum was started, its proposed funtion was to ".... promote and provide information available for preservation and/or restoration to original spec 914's (both). 914 discussion here is NOT intended to be solely for the CW (I REALLY hate that designation!)".

I am NOT the master of this forum. I am the Moderator - that means that I see to it that the original purpose of the form is maintained, or else modified at the requests of the majority.

Several days ago, I put a halt to a certain thread concerning a very nicely prepared, though (in his term) unoriginal 914. You cannot imagine the heat I've taken from this! Regardless, I promised that I would take the issue to the readers of this forum. Remember, I am the MODERATOR - not a sanctimonious dictator.

I killed the thread & it was placed on the garage forum.

I also said I would take the issue/debate to the readership of this Forum. Not because I feared for my job as moderator (please take this away!). But because I may have offended. Offended who? Apparently several.

I don't want anyone alienated from this forum. So, I'll try to sort out the facts here & let the readership have input.

The 914 in question, by the owner's own words, is "unoriginal". Yet, it fits the specs for a PCA Parade Performance class judging. It IS highgly unoriginal, yet extremely "clean". And, it can compete in a Parade.

The issue here is not the car in question, but any other similar cars. Are we being to non-inclusive? Am I?

So, I'd like to "moderate" your responses. I won't interject my feelings, because I moderate.

Opine please!

The purpose of this Forum is to.........

Annoy, Agitate, Aggravate, Antagonize and Aggrieve Pat Garvey


But all kidding aside, the Forums' purpose should be, as stated, originality, preservation and history with a very liberal inclusion of caretaking and cleanliness topics.

Kelly's blue 914 should be in this Forum to provide information on how the car is so meticulously maintained in such a state of cleanliness. That said, the discussion of his car should not evolve into "what carb set-up he used, where he sourced the s/s hoses, how he fabricated the rain tray, etc." Those digressions should then go to the Garage Forum.

All are 914s benefit with shared knowledge on how to keep them clean, be they track cars, daily drivers or concours entrants.

The originality and preservation questions should be fielded here, which they are in fine fashion.

Pat, you are doing a great job, even if you do detest my "improvements". You're just Pat, being Pat.

Paul

And, yet, I'm standing back - watching & waiting for these reponses. Moderating.

You guys have the forum. I'll abide.

Oh, man, this is tough!

I do have an opinion on this subject, have discussed it w/ others & come to the conclusion that what I want is impractical & a lot of work for the moderators & administrators of "our world".

I've been around the 914 since I was 11. I just showed up here about 7 months ago. I really have no senority so don't think my opinion is worth squat but here goes. I think the world is fantastic for a teener junkie like me but it would seem logical to me to break up this forum into 2 separate forums.

The first division would be for concours- as in proceedures, events, awards, congrats, postings of pics of prize winning Teeners regardless of Preservation, Restoration, Modified, etc... Originality & History would not matter, awards & competition would.

Now here's the really hard part- the second division, O&H, should be an electronic version of Das Grosse VW/Porsche Buch. You do not show your car off in O&H, you look up historical 914 info & ask technical questions regarding original repairs, restorations & such. O&H should be a library of factory info on the 914, the 914-6 & the 916.

These cars are why we're here & some of us, like me, have the total luxury of being lucky enough to participate in more than one area. I have no intention of restoring my six back to original specs, I intend to convert it into a modernized 916. I will never touch the LE & hopefully when I die she's either going to belong to my unborn child or wind up in a museum. Either way I need factory info on my toys & I'd like O&H to be just that- a factory library.

The issue w/ the other posting that got shut down & then bumped over to the garage would have been completely avoided if O&H was a library that had nothing to do w/ concours. Had there been a separate concours forum then it would have been posted over there, where it would belong because it was a prize winning Teener. O&H should be just that- originality & history & have nothing to do w/ competition of any kind (concours or A/X).

I'm a spoiled 44yr old brat, always want the best, always want the best for my friends as well. Unfortunately you can't have your cake & eat it too. As the moderator Pat, I would suggest that the next time something inappropriate is posted in O&H don't shut it down, bump it over to the garage where it belongs & be done w/ it. My .02.

I'll leave the issue of whether or not the original post was appropriate to this forum to others. Frankly, that is not of great import. What I find inappropriate is the smug, insulting way you treated the individual when you decided to close the thread. That was inappropriate and an apology to him is in order.

I feel this forum is here for all questions related to the originality, preserving that originality, etc...my thread about the removing the spray paint, started out as an originality question (whether the paint was factory or not)...now, it may or may not be garage material.... -JON

Hi Pat,

You didn't do anything wrong, you just stated your personal feelings. We all know your passion for bone stock original 914's & I consider you one of my best 914 friends. The problem is other's don't know you like we do & they see you differently. I personally feel this forum would be more popular if more subject matter was included. We can't make everyone CW's and if we did there would only be less than a dozen on this forum. I suggest broader topic's to cover how too's & just answer everyone's questions like before. Even if it's a little beyond normal CW stuff. Our job is to get people excited about 914's & hope they lean to the CW side.

Tom
BTW: I know this has bothered you. Just have fun & don't take this personally.

I was logged in and wrote a long and eloquent impassioned plea for the status quo, reasonableness, and I solved all the world's problems at the same time. When I clicked "Add This" it asked that I log in (again) and lost everything!!!

Paul

I think you were correct in your interpretation of the purpose of the forum. I told the person in question as much.... I use this forum to find out what was original. I come here to compare what I see to what i have and in most cases mine is original. I was however, very disturbed by your tone. I have to agree with Jim completely in this regard. I kept waiting for the quite obviously needed public apology.
You serve a purpose here. Your knowledge of originality is needed. It shouldn't become a bias though. I am just one individual but I frankly don't care what you think I should do with my car. In the end, it is mine. You have let your bias show many times...

I'm a part of why this threat started, I have not let Pat off the hook on this one

So it's easy to guess where I stand. I think Paul (1970 Neun vierzehn ) and Jim (Porsche Rescue) have said it best.

I can only add that what's been said before, the cars are a lesser part of the whole "914 experience". And the great friends I've met at events ect, are what make this place unique.

I love learning little trivia in the O & H section, but like Paul said above, If Concour is part of this forum, then we can all learn from everyone. I do not want to see it split into different area's, I feel that just further complicates things, and less information is shared.

Ferg

My dad always said if you want respect you have to give it also.

I also have to say, thank you for being moderator, its not a easy task.

w/ this part of his statement & have no desire to loose you as the moderator of this forum Pat. Politics suck & that is what you are forced to be as the moderator of a forum- a politician. Again, I feel it's best to bump & not shut down- how could anyone be offended by that? I was not offended when my tire calculator thread got bumped here because George insisted on it. Frankly, if I was in your position, I would have bumped it back to the garage. What does the tire calculator have to do w/ O&H or Concours for that matter? Everybody knows 165/80 15 right? If we're going to argue tires in this forum we're going to argue brand, not the size. From my point of view Pat lacked tact & Kelly fell short of "Emily Post" as well by pissing & moaning in the other forum. If there was a problem between the two of you it should have been handled privately & not for all to see. Guess this original gen x'er was raised by old fashioned baby boomers- you don't air your dirty laundry.
No one has said anything however, to convice me that Concours should not be a separate forum. Look what's happened in the other thread where I wrote I'm clueless- my disease has become contagious to both Pat & James & we're stuck on PCA definitons of what is & what is not. Again, that's concours not O&H. O&H should be the electronic version of Das Grosse VW/Porsche Buch or the library. Concours should be separate.
Now, because of all this, I feel like I stuck my big nose someplace where it does not belong.

I do not believe an apology is necessary. I think you suffered from being verbose. What you had to say was made much worse by how many words you used to say it, sounded like you were berating rather than moderating.

Time for us to move on. I'm glad you're here!

Paul

I have always thought the mod should act like a DJ at a bar. He plays what people want to hear and you really don't know he's there. If someone gets out of line he gives a nod to the bouncers and the guy is asked to leave nicely.

In the thread that started all this you seemed to allow the guy dance/drink and have an good time with several of his friends joining in and it was a nice private party. No one was getting hurt and everyone was enjoying themselves. Than out of nowhere you acted as the bouncer and kicked him out to the street in no uncertain terms and locked the door behind him.

It's not what you did it's how you did it.

I'll chime in here..........I didn't see what the fuss is or was.

The original poster only had issue with the way you handled the problem, not the content of his post or the fact it didn't belong in your forum. Nobody likes to be treated poorly. Perhaps thats just your style, but not everybody here know you...

I think that a strong personality with strong leadership abilities is perfect for this forum as the originality and concours judges usually have strong opinions about the individuals entries. I have been stung many a time by them, but in retrospect respect their opinions which in turn has made me a better competitor and one who pays closer attention to detail.
I appreciate a personality who is not all sugar and spice, sometimes rubbing someone wrongly (Pat was hard on this poor chap, I will have to tell you the time I entered my brand newly restored silver 356 in the concours, and was literally railroaded out of the competition!!!!!!)
Originality and History by the strictest interpretation is just that. No room for ANY modification threads or general bulls...t, if that is what the moderator so desires. Keeping it strict is sort of a nice idea........clean and regimented.........sort of like the Nazis who originally conceived the vw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (that is a joke of course)
On the other hand all of those who desire to make their car original again, even suburu and v-8 914 owners who have come clean with god and confessed, should be able to participate and hear the word of pat the word of Jeff Bowlesby, or even the word of Dr. 914 as to how to return their 914s to the way the factory intended them!
DrD

So the question remains.

Is this a Originality and History Forum period.

Or is it a Originality, History and Concour Forum?

I still vote for B.

Ferg

Okay...

The ONLY reason I posted that thread here is because I thought this forum was also about concourse stuff too. All Pat had to do is move the thread or just tell me that he didn't want it in O&H. I thought about posting or not posting in the other forum about this for sometime before I did. Why did I? Well frankly I felt like I had been bitch slapped in public and I'm not one to walk away from that. I didn't and don't want anything from Pat.

I was just trying to share the joy of showing my car with others. I'm fine with keep my threads in the garage. If you do make a concorse forum I'll use that as well.

I dont think anyone is looking for sugar and spice, just respect. I keep reading this excuse of "thats just how I am and I am fine with that" - it appears on several posts in this forum. That is crap. Personally, it undermines my respect for the person and the opinion. You dont have to blow sunshine, but you dont have to be demeaning either.

I do think an apology would be fair - but it should not be based on anyones opinion or vote tally on some internet thread - it should be done because you feel it is the right thing to do. I also think it should be done privately.

As far as the direction of the forum, I own both "true" frame off restored concour cars as well as modified "clean" drivers (interestingly, I have more concour ribbons and trophies from the drivers). I could care less which road the forum takes as I find both very interesting. It just needs to be presented in a way that increases peoples awareness and interest of what it is all about - not scare them away.

I think you were within the bounds of the "originality" aspect of the current forum. I stated my opinions in Kelly's thread so I won't go too far into it. Here's some bullet points:

1. The post was a little smug (self imposed accolades hurt me; let alone Kelly) which, I think, was uncalled for from a Moderator.

2. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE STRICT ORIGINALITY however, I think it limits what this forum could become especially when it's used as a tool to reject others. It boils it down to about 1/2 dozen guys talking about their original cars. While I'm sure these are all knowledgable guys, we ALL know we can always learn more from others or as a collective. My personal thoughts would more mirror the PCA Parade rule book and open this (excellent) forum up to all those who are interested in showing their cars at events, be them originality buffs or simply 914 buffs. Let's look at what this could evolve into:

Let's say an originality buff wants to do a ground up restoration and would like to e-coat his chassis. It would be great to get feedback on e-coating in this forum. I happen to know a guy who's gone through it twice. Can anyone tell me his name? Hint: He probably won't be posting here any more.

3. All of this is said while handing you a Woodford's Reserve on the rocks (5 to be precise) and a slap on the back. We all should relax and take it as it comes.

Kelly,

Well, I've been soundly throttled and chastised for my action! And, all the beratement, as well as some serious thought has given me cause to regret the action. I hereby publically apologize to you & feel I let my strong belief in purism get in the way of sound moderation. I could have done this via PM, but felt all should hear it.

I will herafter ATTEMPT to keep a more open mind to these sorts of issues. We are all suppose to be brothers/sisters in marque - the last thing I want to do is alienate anyone.

My sincerest apologies!!!!!

Pat

Apology accepted. Enough said about that. Lets all move on.

How would some enterprising reader like to construct a poll for the direction of this forum? I'm horrible at it & won't attempt it.

I'd suggest it to be a new topic, so it doesn't get buried in this thread. And, give it, say, 10-14 days before it's closed out & we move on from the results.

Any takers?
Pat

Well done Pat.

Excellent Pat. Thanks Kelly.

Bravo... Well said.

I agree, what was the problem? I think some people are too sensitive.

Move on

Nope - disagree. Some of us become too INsensitive.

Either way, let's move on.

What's the feel of the masses - close this topic? Your call, but why waste bandwidth on a done issue?
Pat