Good steward of planet????? yeah right, if that was the case you should remove the 914 from the road forever. Instead you sell it (for personnel gain) thus allowing that car to be driven by someone that is not a good planet steward.

maybe you should buy some of Gores carbon credits to make up for your lack of stewardship in wanting to sell your car to be used, rather than turning it into an organic compost bin. (besure to drill holes in floor so rain water can drain out, else compost will rot)

Kind of like arnold nazi shwartzni**er selling off his fleet of humvees so he could sauy he is a green driver! Now his fleet (yes fleet) of humvees that he sold are being driven by multible folks, likely totally more miles driven that if arnold had kept them (I figure arnold can only drive one at a time)

So the dude is a hypocrite biotch just like me. He probably does not purchase anything that is in a plastic bag like chips or soda. His medication comes in paper bags and he has decided to no longer eat since the byproducts of this adds to the methane gases in the atmosphere. I'm just like him so stop it you! OOOops, I just had a beer fart!

Ouch!

maybe you want to give the booze a break, friend. that's a lot of angst for a sunny, summer Sunday afternoon.

really... the N-BOMB?!

hey dave, i thought you had left this (914)world for good!


did you piss off someone on the club site and got banned?
Andy

Yeah, well the "arnold nazi shwartzn*****" had my hand on the ban button... and it's still hovering over the temporary ban button.

So much Hate, so little time

Ask yourself, would this benefit the site? (Yes) Has this individual added anything but piss and vinegar to any conversation in our collective memories? (No)

PUSH THE BUTTON! Else, they will never learn to be sociable.

If society is sinfull and the rules there of corrupt, then how is social defiance considered sin. Is not our quarrel with ideas rather than men. Jihad!

Maybe a good steward of the planet that thinks the car hobby is not good, ought to not trash the car hobby as being unstewardly. It is an insult to all the car hobbiests to have that posted.
I though sirandy was done with 914s for good.

At anyrate seems to be fair game to disagree with his off topic sterwardship insults to all the fine car hobbyists, many which do practice good stewardship.

to claim to want to get rid of the car for planet reasons, yet sell it to someone that will continue to keep it on the road is just palin silly. That needs to be pointed out to the owner, he will not be helping the planet any more if he or anyone else drives the car. If he is talking up his enviromentalism yet is still sellng the car to be used rather than destroyed, or permenatly parked, he is fooling himself, it aint helping the planet any, and he should reconize that.

Want folks to take your enviromental commitment seiuosly, then take seriuos action and park/scrap the car, remove it from the car hobby for anyone and all, then you truely will be making a difference.

enviormentalism is fine, as long as what you claim is helpful is realy indeed making a difference. in this case i think not. let the first person to defend this position remove their 914 permantly from the road, and drive somthing that gets better milage, else don't give the 914 car hobby folks the message that we are harming the planet, while one make money off selling his car to someone else so he can feel good about himself and his stewardship.

stewardship is fine, but practice what you preach.

My view is my car hobby has negated the need for me to buy a new car, avoiding the enviromental consiquences that go with throwing out an older car, and buying a new manufactured one. we all have trade off. One can be a good steward, and still be inthe car hobby, any one disagree with that?

all these years and you still haven't learned how to READ ...
never said i was "done with 914s for good". simply not true. search the old posts.

but then again, "truth" was never your strong point anyways ...
Andy

PS: and you didn't answer my question: the clubbers getting tired of you already?

No matter what you drive, it will have given something off into the environment in the end. The problem is that of perspective my friend. Everything we have here on earth is from the "environment" thus all we are doing is making the environment harder for us to live in. If you want to do better for us, then put a smaller engine in your 914. The damage has already been done by making your car and why destroy it and the environment any further by labeling it an environmental hazard and replacing it with another one? Cars were made to clean the environment of horse crap so in a way, we have taken a step forward by making your car. Remeber, the environment doesen't give a damn about you or your progeny. The ENVIRONMENT is MOCKING you since the earth has cycled nonlivable conditions for animals far longer than sustain any! Just a thought.

If it counts for anything, I was offended.

man-dude (haha, that has a cool ring to it ), he threw out the bait and you swallowed down the whole thing plus the hook in one big gulp ...

all he wants is to steer this thread into a political debate so he can spew his poison all over this place ...

just DONT go there, man-dude ...
Andy

WOW! I am actually impressed with the way you managed to put forth your point without insulting anyone directly or using derogatory language (not being sarcastic). I wish you would have done this in the beginning, but such appears not to be your style. Now that we see you have it in you, we have every right to expect you to behave yourself and play nice.

I cant fault you for hi-jacking a thread, I do it often, but I try to be a bit more diplomatic than to attack someones beliefs in their own thread.

This is not the place for a political/global discussion....

Man, you make my head hurt most days

By selling his car he may be precluding someone from buying a new car (probably not) or some other POS thus recycling in a sense.
In biology, we refer to junk cars as "artifacts". They take up space and do not degrade completely in a reasonable amount of time. The 914 would be less of an artifact as it would give in to entropy far easier than any of the new fangled SUVs or sporty cars

I feel your pain Mike; I make my head hurt alot also.

dmenche914 kicked for two days...

We can't allow racial slurs. That behavior is unacceptable.

The guy is a nut job, though I find it entertaining to a point.... I mean seeing many different warped world views, well.. keeps me more in touch with reality..

what a friggin nut

I am a FOOOOL! Whoo, that felt good. FFOOOOOL Ya!

I am not an antigreen something or other. I am antienvironment cuz the environment is the enemy and it never liked us. Its the environment of the DEVIIIIL!

Gwinith, I love you Gwinith! Is that how you spell Paltro's name?

I was reading in Hot-VW's how someone from the EU proposed that Germany put speed limits on the Autobahn. This met with a fairly angy reaction from the otherwise green Germans...

Now, back to this topic, what do we have here... is there such a thing as 914 Guilt? Getting rid of a light car, with fairly decent mpg, ... in exchange for buying say a new Prius ... with all kinds of PLASTIC parts which cometh from fossil fuels? How about just stop buying from China? Or buying anything "new". What's produced is already produced. Ever notice how saving the planet always involves buying siomething?

The unfortunate reality is that our little 30 year old four cylinders create perhaps 10 to 100 times more CO, NO,and a lot of hydrocarbons burned up in the catalytic chamber than in cars only 20 years old.

There is no legitimate way to rationalize it. That sucks.

So I try to make up for it by being contientous about all the other things- paints and pesticides, electricity reduction and things like that.

Do what you can but don't be a martyr.

I once delved into the state of reality and found it was way over rated. I decided to dwell in the unreal dimension. Remember, ignorance is bliss! If reality hits me again, I'm gonna need way more beers!:beer1:

Thank you. I really was offended.

There was an article in the LA Times a couple weeks ago that said the population of CA will increase from 30 Mil to 50 Mil by 2050. So conservation is basically sacrificing your own quality of life for the anonymous millions who will come here and consume all you have conserved, and then some.

I am doing my part! Look at the list of vehicles that I have and can only drive one at a time Plus, the MBZ gets 35mpg at least, the bikes get at least 45mpg and caus less abuse on the roads while leaving less artifact as well when service life is exceeded

Mark, thanks!

thanks mark.

Ya, you're probably right on the pollution data. But let me give a shot at some rationale: You got to admit, dollar for pound, there probably ain't no funner way to pollute than driving a 914 through some twisties. Like I tell my 10-year-old son, "you smell that exhaust, son? That's the smell of freedom, pre-smog planet killing freedom, but what the hell don't fear the reaper. Let's roll!" John

I am not alone (quick edit: in thinking this myself) after all ..............................

Now where did I put that thread of me and him going toe to toe.......I think it is around here somewhere.....

Thank you Mr. McMark - The world just got a little more 'green' with this...

Was this rant about Arnold? Ya know he'll become president one day, just watch the Simpson's movie...

actually its easy to rationalize the car hobby.

the longer you keep a car on the road the smaller the footprint of its embodied energy gets. A car that is reasonably economical that has been around for 30 or more years will create less pollution if driven another 30 years than will be made during the creation of ANY new replacement vehicle.

Embodied energy. How much energy and emissions were created in the construction of that prius? Moving materials around the globe and such. Or a hummer? How much energy and pollution was created?

My car has a very high tailpipe emmision, but a very low lifecycle cost.

see ya later haterz.

Very smart Brer! Well said!

That sounds good, and I would like to believe it, but it is not substantiated by anything. Toyota is gonna make cars anyway. At least the methods used today are much less impacting than when our teeners were built.

I'm just trying to keep folks from deluding themselves. I love living in the petroleum era.

The real impact has still got to be tail pipe emmissions. The good thing is that there aren't many 914s on the road.

Someone needs to do something about all those old 911s though!

Most 914's are on jackstands anyway, how much do you think they pollute sitting there?

And how many are driven all the time, alot have DD's and drive those. And alot of those guys keep there foot out of it as not to break them.

People with new rides don't care about breaking, warrenty covers breakage so alot drive the piss out of them. Are they creating less pollution? Maybe less of one or two but from what I see, more of others.

IMHO.

This may not be a big point but, remember we use no ethylene glycol. how many water pumpers do you see spitting overflow. That ends up in surface water.

My try at rationalization

By the way I found that offensive too

Dave

Its true kids.
I base my post on green building ideas.

http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=222&


You dont need numbers to recognize the tremendous amount of energy spent on one vehicle, the support systems used to create and deliver it.


Driving a classic car also motivates me to cut out frivolous car trips.
Keeping the miles down, and within my insurance mileage limits. Since I made my 60 beetle my daily drive I have begun to walk to work everyday because I dont like leaving it sitting out in the sun baking. My Girl got jealous of me not having to drive so she is now bicycling to her friends house 25 minutes away to carpool to their office.


I call it,

Trickle down environmentalism.

Ronald "Brer" Reagan for president

Just Say No .....to new cars

hey Brer,

I just saw this discussion and should probably just let it die, but.......

Thank you for articulating a position most will not discuss for fear of being anti-environment. Everything manufactured has an enviromental cost associated with it and we must consider the total cost of products.

I recently saw a program on the manufacture of flashlights by Surefire. From mining the aluminum for the lights case and silica for the glass bulb, to refining the metal, manufacturing the bulb, to creating batteries that will eventually need to be disposed of, transportation of all raw materials and the shipping of the finished product.....the list goes on! An incredible amount of energy is consumed and substantial pollution created just by producing a seemingly harmless flashlight.

Anyway, thanks for mentioning the unseen environmental costs of replacing your old car with a new one.

I for one am more than willing to drive an old car that gets 30-34mpg over a new car that gets less mpg.

The analysis that always brings it home is this.
A typical lifespan of a solar photo voltaic panel is less than the time it takes for that panel to create more "free energy" then it consumed to create that panel in the first place.

Now, this has been fact since PV panels have been created, its still a fact for the most part, though finally the new process has changed this, and in the next 5 years we will see PV panels the are positive producers of electricity.

Car,
I cant possibly imaging, given the FACT regarding a PV panel, that a car which is new, like a prius, does nothing but consume energy in the manufacturing life cycle.
I cant imagine that I might save anything by buying it.
I have to drive to work to make the money to pay for it, right.
There cant possibly be any good simple arguement to buy a new car from any environmental standpoint.
Please, before you react, read the part about the manufacturing of a PV panel that actually contributes "free" and clean power to our world.

There is no way a new car could possibly have any positive impact at all on our planet.
If all the new car manufacturing stopped, think of the reduction of smog then, plants closed, steel manufacturing slows, trucking, logistics,...
This list goes on and on, for in fact it is the LARGEST manufacturing business in the world.
There is no business, no product, no total lifecycle , that consumes MORE that the design/build/operation of a car.

The longer any product lives, the smaller the overall polution footprint is on the world, just a fact, no opinion, just pure numbers.

Again, please hold the emotion, look at the PV panel example, and I am glad to point you to many many studies regarding that example.
Cars, the longer they live, the longer you use them, the smaller the overall pollution signature is per year/per mile.

Rich

oh yea, a hummer has less embodied energy than a prius.

WOW! The poor guy,(gfulcher) who made the comment in the first place, will never want to post here again! I'm sure by now he feels personally attacked.! I do have to say, I attacked him first about his views on enviromental concerns, sorry about that.

The real point of his post was about the values of 914's dropping.

I still stand on what I said origanally, This save the planet kick is hypocritical. Where I live I see thaousands of new homes built every day. The development is out of control in CA. population growth is at an all time high and there seems to be no end to it. Traffic is a nightmere 24/7. But yet I see nothing being done to stop or slow the progress because of enviromental concerns.

When I see all the people who are concerned about the enviroment, treehuggers and the like, destroy their cars, sell their house, move into a cave in the mountains, use no electricity generated from and powerplant that has dammed a river, grow their own food and live off the land, I will THINK about being a good steward to the planet.

Right now all I see is a big push for the "next new thing". There will be ton's of people jumping on the get rich quick band wagon, promotors will( and already have) throw concerts for a green enviroment,the stars will fly to and from the venue in their prvate jets, line their pockets and go back to their 6000+ sq. ft. energy wasting home, in the middle of a mass metropolis.

You know, the other day I read a news artical, it stated that there is a movement to stop planting rainbow trout in the rivers in CA. because enviromenalists are worried they are eating too many insects.

Hey gfulcher, sorry for attacking you, no offense.

Keith

There are people who go out of their way to minimize their lifestyle.
You should try it. It saves alot of money and makes your food taste better.

Are you talking about the people in Berkley right now sitting in Starbucks drinking a Chi latte discussing global warming?

Belive me brother I want nothing more than to get out of the rat race, go into the hills and live off the land. NOT because of enviromental reasons, I prefer that lifestyle. I just may do it after I raise my daughter.

I'm leaving this thread with a qoute from an old philosopher.



"if you are so unhappy with whats on your plate then go out and shoot your own dinner!"

I have and will continue too.... see ya on another thread...Keith

This whole "Stewardship" concept is based on the assumption that the garbage spewed by the media is scientific and not POLITICAL in nature.

NOT driving a car to spare Carbon Emissions is in my view, a passive act, and does little except satisfy a media-induced "guilt" that we are all environmental criminals. The internet provides easily accessible "soap-boxes" so you can completely assuage your guilt by making everyone know you did a "good deed". This is just LAZY, and really ineffective.

Population continues to grow. The net Carbon Emissions is higher with more consumers. I don't necessarily buy in to the "global warming" theory as it is yet to be proved that this isn't a normal cycle the earth does anyhow (it destroys itself almost entirely every now and then).

If you care one bit, and want to actively DO something that produces REAL results... go to your nursery and buy a couple flats of tree seedlings. Go find some open space you like to take walks in and plant them. Take a water can with you each day you go for a walk (at least during summer) and water them. Put some kind of anti-deer protection on them and take responsibility to "STEWARD" these trees to fend for themselves (a year or so).

One full grown tree can process enough CO2 to produce Oxygen for a family of 4 for one year!

Keep driving your 914.. those trees need their nutrition!!!

I love it!

Thanks Brian.

You are right, but every REAL contribution does help. Those things add up. You are also right that too many people only pay lip service to the needs, and think that makes them good environmental stewards. This has been a long standing gripe I have about the Sierra Club and similar organizations. Its like Al's Carbon credits. Aparently we have finally decided that everything- even existance- is a commodity.

It isn't complicated. Just don't fowl your nest. Thats a lot more than can be said for many people.

Rich

That's an interesting analysis. But even that analysis is biased. Sure, it may take more energy to produce the PV panel than it will produce over a lifetime. However, it does produce more energy than it took to deliver that amount of energy to your house - and that's what's more important.

For every KWH of electricity delivered to your house, it took quite a bit more energy to get it there. All of the losses getting from the power plant to your house (not even considering the infrastructure and all the energy that took to build). Then the energy it too to build the power plant, the inefficiency of turning fossil fuels into electricity, etc etc.

So the PV panel doesn't need to produce more energy than it took to make to be more efficient than your current electricity source. Overall efficiency is the main goal.

I remember one professor in college said that it takes more energy to build a nuclear power plant than that plant will ever produce over it's lifetime. Seems hard to believe. So why build the power plant at all? It's so that every home doesn't have a gas powered generator sitting in the back yard which would be much less efficient, and much more polluting.

That's part of the answer.. the other part is never addressed in Engineering Curricula..the economics of SELLING power. Your power bill will show higher charges per KWH depending on the TIME OF DAY. Peak demand hours is when they make the big bucks. They have the power at a time when you need/want it most.. so they can charge multiples of what it cost to build the plant (over a 20-30 lifetime of the plant).

Keeping a load on a Nuke is important, as in most Steam Plants (even fossil fueled units).. they don't like having to slow down, then speed up again. This is why some plants sell their power really cheap at night to Citys/Water Districts that pump the water from a lower to upper reservoir at night, then generate power during peak hours when they let it fall during the day. HUGE net WASTE of energy..no doubt.. but it provides the juice when it pays the best.


A similar attitude is applied to Electric Cars. All engineers know it is a big waste of energy... converting any form of fossil fuel/biomass to electricity, then taking the efficiency hits for transmitting the power, storing it (batteries), discharging the batteries, and running an electrical motor... all yield far less "Mechanical" energy than burning the fuel in a engine right in the car.... But, as in LA.. they REAL motivation is LOCAL pollution. They love to hide their heads in the sand and ignore that they must be polluting elsewhere at some Power Plant in the Central Valley, or on the Coast (San Onofre Nuclear). The motiviation is not efficiency, its once again, political.

Don't look to CARB for guidance on doing what is better for the earth.. they exist only to reduce pollution in the LA Basin.


Instead, look to the "evil hate group" known as Boy Scouts Of America. "Leave No Trace" is SOP, and they have planted more trees in this country than any "Environmental" group under the sun.