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All I can say is - "you get what you pay for". Ain't nobody knows brakes better than Eric. And, that is worth some extra money alone.

Tell us what you get from PP. We're all inerested.
Pat

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Shouldn't be a problem. You can mess around with all years, though I don't see a point. Maybe eric could step in here.
Pat

Eric's brake calipers look incredable. I purchased a set from cardone for my 75. Inexpensive, functioned properly, but the paint burned off and they flashed rusted. Being your doing what seems to be a very nice level of resto for your car, ship them off to Eric. They will have beautiful cad plating and look new.

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I weighed some wheels this week at a local used Porsche parts distributor. Weights were done on a MyWeigh BCS-80 portable scale. Wheels were weighed without center caps, and consider an error possibility of 0.1 lbs.

4-lug Fuchs - 13.1 lbs.
Early Pedrini - 14.5 lbs.
Late Pedrini - 15.4 lbs.
4-lug Mahle - 13.4 lbs.
Late 4-lug steel - 16.5 lbs.

Cheers,
-Mirror

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I didn't see any on the racks there, but I'll ask next time I'm down and I'll weigh one if they have one.

Cheers,
-Mirror

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TIRE SAFETY - AGE & MANUFACTURE DATE

OK - Tire Safety seems an appropriate subject here as well, since I'm seeing folks trying to sell NOS tires at Samba, eBay, etc. - as well as some Tire Shops selling out of their old stock - some of which may NOT be safe!!!!

Here are some websites which show the DOT required serial number / date code & how to read it, and some recent articles & info. on NHTSA & DOT recommendations for when to toss - OR DECLINE TO BUY - those older tires. Use this to check your old tires on the car, when you look at those online for sale, & even those in the Tire shop or the vaunted Coker & other vintage tire suppliers!

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/tec...e.jsp?techid=11
http://www.aa1car.com/library/tire_expire.htm
http://www.ehow.com/how_4621263_read-tire-date-codes.html

The bottom line is that rubber ages, cracks & becomes "...unsafe at any speed!" (poor Corvair - another great car, esp 66-69), so DOT & NHTSA had been recommending use up to 10 years, but recently changed that advice down to 6 years, which matches long time Euro-country requirements.

Pat - yours noted above for show are long gone - no need to check, just don't drive around on them! ...put them on at the grounds, & drive on new ones. Same thing for others with "original tires" of 20-35+ years old.

So if your buying new, or assessing that online "deal" - get the date stamp, figure your typical annual mileage x how many years to get to 6 years (or 10 years tops if you want to play the odds on a performance car) from the manufacture date coded on them. Most reputable tires dealers today will say 5-7 years is the max. you should drive them, so that means low mileage & driven garage queens - or little princesses - will need new tires long before they're tread worn!

For New Tires from a store/online dealer (Coker et al) - I wouldn't pay them for anything older than 2 years myself - because I expect new tires from a store - not NOS, & due to the maximum period for which the manufacturers are required to warranty them after the sale &/or manufacture date (see links 1 & 2 for that info.)

Also, make sure that they're the proper speed rating for your 914 engine size & speed capability, as per the tag on your gas tank's expansion tank by the filler:
914-4 2.0L - HR or better - i.e.: VR + good, but TR, SR, R (non-rated) = bad
914-4 1.7L - SR or better - HR, VR +
914-4 1.8L - varied SR or HR or better, per your tag

914/6 guys & gals - step in here, as I don't know.....
( I recall seeing 185VR15s somewhere for them??)

Hope this is helpful to somebody!
....& keeps folks safe on the road too!!!!! ....well, okay, as safe as any Teener Nut can be anyway!

For example, here are still deep tread Kleber 165HR15s which have sat in my garage for 26-28 years, which look good at first glance, but closer inspection of the sidewalls & between the tread lugs show small hairline cracks which would open up & disintegrate at road speed!!!

Click to view attachment

Thanks Tom. Very educational and interesting. My new Vredestein Sprint Classics (155SRx15 as per the sticker on my '70) were installed last week. Code indicates manufacture in 27th week of 08. My "new" tires are about a year old! I am guessing that is not unusual.

Jim they seem reasonably priced. How do you like them?

All I can say is I like their looks! I haven't driven on them yet but should be able to in a day or two. Finalizing some other work on the car now.
You probably would want the 165's for a '74 and I think they cost quite a bit more ($109) but are H rated. They also make the Sprint + but it is not speed rated. I got them here.
http://www.vredesteintire.com/products/SPRST.asp

RIVIERA AFTERMARKET ALLOY WHEELS - AND.....
PROOF OF A FULL SET OF 5 OE FUCHS 2.0 ALLOYS AS A "STANDARD OPTION" ON ALL 1973 MY 914-2.0/"914S" MODELS

Mirror - since you're doing this for a data base, I don't want any confusion on my question above.

BTW - the Rivieras were NOT OE on any 914s, but instead were one of the most popular AFTERMARKET wheels.

So I'm just curious as to whether they had any weight &/or strength advantages or disadvantages over what was stock.
...anyone else with weight & strength expertise?

I'm also not sure if they were really noticeably cheaper than Porsche wheels - e.g.: I read somewhere that a set of 5 of the stock OE Fuchs 2.0 Alloys seemed to run about $209 in 73/74 (or about $42 a wheel) on the window stickers for some, but then again - Jeff Bowlsby's PCA 914 SIG webpage for 914 options lists the M485 Alloy Wheels + 165HR15 tires (5 set) as $799 with tires - certainly worth a "strip & resell" game for the dealers!
...anyone have a period receipt for Rivieras of the day showing cost???

In my 73 914-2.0's case - I bought it 12/26/75 about 38 months after first sold in CA on 11/9/72 (I pretty sure I'm 2nd owner unless P.O. fibbed), and it was outfitted with 4 brushed aluminum finish Rivieras (rather than the more common polished variety) & a "Mag Style" Steelie at the spare (see pix below).

My guess without yet having found a way now to track down the seller P.O./first owner again to confirm this, is that the Dealer had replaced the 5 Fuchs 2L Alloys which were "standard upgrades" (so to speak) on the 73 2Ls, with the possibly cheaper 4 Rivieras & a "free" steelie from another 914 which they probably "upgraded" with my 914's Fuchs!

EARLY 1973 PORSCHE+AUDI DEALER 914 MARKETING BROCHURE - DETAIL OF "914S" UPGRADES PAGE ("914s" = 914-2.0 AT THAT POINT)

Click to view attachment

^ Note the OE Finish on these is Polished or Semi-Polished at the Rim & "Windmill Paddles", with a Matte Finish on the background area - ALL are a "Silver" - or more correctly - "Natural Aluminum" in color for both finishes, with the Anodized protective coating as noted above by Pat Garvey for the entire wheel (since anodizing dunks the entire wheel in the vat). I'm not sure of the finish on the 4 Lug Bolts, but they appear to be either silver painted or a natural steel finish - not chromed. Since this is from the first Porsche+Audi 914 marketing brochure to show these Alloys, it at least represents their initial finishes for the early 1973 MY.


Since mine was an early 2L (VIN 4732901954 & Engine # GA000424 - i.e.: the 424th 2.0 built), it was subject to the BO Recall for early 1973 2.0s with Alloy Wheels VIN 4732900021 to 4732908173. So perhaps the dealer could've collected up to $1739 for the 5 wheel recall/replacement, replaced the wheels on mine with less expensive 4 Rivieras & 1 Steelie, then resold at least the set of 5 Alloys originally intended for mine at $799, as well as perhaps also reselling the 5 "wrong" early Fuchs 2.0 Alloys+Tires for an earlier 70-72 914 without the self-centering hubs for additional $799 profit - rather than returning them to the distributor as required (see the P+A recall letters to the dealers on the 914 SIG webpage at the link below)! Since mine sold new on 11/9/72, & the BO recall letters went out about a month later on 12/8/72 - mine would've been an after sale recall notice to the first owner to bring it back in for the work, and could've been done by the selling dealer or any other dealer.

In rough figures for the above - said dealer could generate cashflow in the range of $1740 + $800 + $800 = $3340 of ALL PROFIT - or 3/4s the retail value of a new 73 1.7L - & probably the equivalent of having sold 3-6 914s at a 10-20% profit each!!!! ...and they could do this whether they originally sold the 914, or whether another dealer did so! Ergo, the dealer's motivation for doing this "strip the Alloys" game - especially in these early HO recall cars!

And the "steal/swap the spare" game would be lucrative in later years, especially considering that the M485 option's $799 price tag would've risen from 73-76 as did everything else, again about equal to their profit margin on selling a new 914!!!! ...and then they'd only be selling "incomplete" sets of 4 alloys for those "optional upgrades" on other 914s - presumably for the `73 1.7Ls & `74-76 1.8Ls & later `74-76 2.0Ls where the Fuchs Alloys were an added cost option - instead of "included" on the `73 2.0/"914S" models!!!

FYI for all early 1973 914 owners with the M485 Option's Alloy Wheel & 155SR15 or 165HR15 "Sport Tires" (on 1.7L models I presume), there was also another BH wheel recall for Alloys Wheels on VIN 4732902489 to 4732903800. I'm not sure whether this was for some of all of the 4-Lug Fuchs 2L, Mahle &/or Pedrini Alloys available in that model year as an option.

These recalls involved the lack of an inset on the inside face of the Alloys to receive the "new for 73" self-centering front brake disk/hubs, which have a rim that sticks out a few mm from the face around the center hub hole (see pix at link).

All or most 914 Recalls for all years & models are listed on the webpage below, along with the actual VW/Porsche+Audi Letters to dealers on these recalls at the image links in the 1-2 column(s) to the right. I think that they were complied by Jeff Bowlsby on the PCA 914 SIG website, & are an excellent resource.

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm

Also note that the BH & BO recall letters at that webpage consistently refer to inspecting all 5 of the full set of 5 alloys. Ergo, at least for the 1973 MY the Alloy wheels options were a set of 5 Alloys - NOT 4 Alloys + Steel Spare! Since the M485 option could apply to the new 4 Lug Mahle, Pedrini & Fuchs 2L Alloys, this was apparently SOP to have 5 Alloys in all cases up to that point, & perhaps for 74-76 as well. So anyone missing 1 spare or all 5 Alloys was ripped off by the dealer!!!!

Here's what I got in 12/75 on my used 73 2L instead of a full set of 5 of the "new for 1973 2Ls" Fuchs 2L Alloys. The steelie spare still has an OE or early replacement Semperit M266 STT V1 steel/rayon radial 165HR15 (mfgd. in Republic of Ireland), and the Rivieras still have the last 1983 set of Kleber V12 165SR15 steel/rayon radials (yup - wrong speed rating for a 9142L!). FYI - Kleber is a subsidiary of Michelin & still in existence.

AFTERMARKET (not OE) c.1972-75 5-SPOKE 4-LUG RIVIERA WITH ORIGINAL PLASTI-CHROME CENTER CAP - BRUSHED ALUMINUM FINISH & SATIN BLACK BACKGROUND-CENTER

Click to view attachment

1983 KLEBER V12 165SR15 TREAD PATTERN - STILL DEEP ENOUGH BUT UNSAFE AT 26+ YEARS

Click to view attachment

^ Kleber Tread appears similar to Vredstiens of today.

I hope this info helps on a number of questions here!

FYI - In my researching on OEM replacements available today, I spoke with the folks at Continental's USA HQ, and the Dunlops are NO LONGER a Tire Manufacturer on their own anymore. Apparently their brand name has been divided up amongst several Tire Mfgr. conglomerates worldwide, with Goodyear branding some of their tires as "Dunlop" for the USA/North America, while Continental owns the "Dunlop brand name" & badges tires as such in Euro-country!

So sorry to say - but your "..."Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15..." show tires noted above are really Goodyears! ....other CWs will need to answer whether that matters.

It is an ironic homage to the poor 914 though, that you have a lost & formerly vaunted tire name on your 914 - also an orphan of the Porsche AG!

OK - I've gone thru all 9 pages of this thread to make sure I'm not repeating myself here (a half-zymers thing ), since I'd posted stuff on correct period tire sources available nowadays, probably on another tires post/thread here.

There are several sources out there for the 155 & 165 x15 tires, Vredstiens being the most common, plus Michelins & Pirelli has come back out with their retro CN36s again too. Some sources below are in Great Britain & Europe - which would be "Grey Market", but they may be able to sell USA DOT approved versions, &/or you could take these to your local Tire Store to special order for you in the USA DOT approved versions.

These would all be manufactured with modern rubber compounds, belts, etc., but using the older style treads - many of which were pretty "sticky"at the time - for old style "skinny" tires. Ergo, these modern versions should perform even better - if not up to the low profile extra wide performance tires available today.

I won't include the sources for 195s again here though, since they're more readily available, and are already at my other Tires thread somewhere else here on 914world's Originality Forums.

Here are Pix of what I've found available online, as of Spring 2009:

MICHELIN XAS 165HR15
Click to view attachment

PIRELLI CA67 & CN36
Click to view attachment

PIRELLI CN36 165HR65
Click to view attachment

VREDSTIEN SPRINT CLASSIC 165HR15
Click to view attachment

Here are Links to Tire Sales websites selling the 165x15 & 155x15 Tires:
Pirellis in USA:
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/PIRELLI_OPEN.html

http://www.universaltire.com/

http://www.performanceplustire.com/product...HR15#prodAnchor

https://store.coker.com/165hr15-vredestein-...kwall-tire.html

http://www.vredesteintire.com/products/SPRST.asp
http://www.vredesteintire.com/products/SPRIN.asp


GB Source for Michelin & Pirelli, etc.:
http://www.borrani.co.uk/Special_Tyre_Offer.php
http://www.longstonetires.com/radial.php
http://www.longstonetires.com/Special_Offer.php
http://www.longstonetires.com/productPage....p;productID=739
http://www.longstonetires.com/productPage....name=radial.php


Here are some options for vintage tires by our 356 Bretheren:
http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic...707b261199b26a1
http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic...a51a07ed95f6cf9


Also - I've collected a few period 72-74 Road & Track, Motor Trend & Car and Driver magazines recently, in the research for my own 73 914-2.0, which have many tire ads which I'll try to photograph & post here when I get a chance to do so later on.

Hope this is useful to those looking for OE size tires!

Jim, that's about 1st week of July 08....or 11 months old +/-

Given that these 155 & 165 sizes are nowadays special order & low volume tires, that's not bad at all. Even the "modern sizes" of 185/70-75x15 & 195/60-65x15 would show some "age" at a local tire dealer, due to shipping from the factory then to the shops, & time to sell a particular tire - they could be 6-24 months from date of manufacture until sold at a shop/dist. ctr.

But more than that is NOT worth buying as "new" nor even NOS - at least not without a huge discount for clearing old stock for them).

Those tire age dating websites which I listed also say that the warranty period varies as to whether you have your receipt or not, as follows:

"Most tire manufacturer's warranties cover their tires for four years from the date of purchase or five years from the week the tires were manufactured"

So keep your receipt so that they're warrantied for the longest possible time, given the above.

Nankang and Kumho - 165 80 15s

http://www.mamotorworks.com/acvw-tires-1-198.html

Keep in mind that neither of those are speed rated. Typically a minimum speed rating of SR (up to 112mph) is required/recommended for 1.7/1.8, & HR (up to 130mph) for 2.0, & I think I've seen elsewhere that VR (149mph) is used for the 914/6 with 185VR14 - as the factory specs. ...no penalties for going higher to say a VR on a 914-4 though! ...unless the CW point counters do so!

See how to read sidewalls, along with all speed ratings in the chart at the bottom of this Continental Tire web page (search "speed rating" at their main site if this link won't work):
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/...idewall_en.html

BTW All - I've never seen a Snow, M&S or such winter tire rated higher than SR - probably because speeds over 100mph in the snow & ice is highly inadvisable!!!!

Ok, I'm seeing lots of different aspect ratios for replacements for the 165x15 tires. Which would be the "most" correct or perfect size match; width & height?
Any conclussions for the best performance tire while maintianing the correct size of 165x15 to put on a 914?

Tod,

The originals were 165(/80)HR15 on 2.0s & 155(/80 or 85)SR15 on the 1.7/1.8s, which I believe is what the Vredsteins & other current 165 & 155 offerings are at. Back in those days they never listed nor put on the tire sidewalls, the profile (ht. to w. ratio) of tires, which I recall only started in the late 70's or early 80s (ergo the preceding being in parentheses).

However, even my 1983 Kleber V12 165SR15s don't list the profile. And yes - that's wrong speed rating for my 2L, but that was all that was available except $200 165VR15 Bridgestones then - very pricey in 83!.

The 914world Tire calculator at the link below will calculate the running size differences in those OE sizes - with today's choices, but only in terms of speedo error, etc. - not in terms of road handling.

http://www.914world.com/specs/tirecalc.php

The 165/80x15 "zero's out" in that calculator, so my "half-zymer's memory" is correct on the 165/80, but there's NO stock 155 tire in the top drop-down menu to check against for OE size for 1.7's & 1.8's spec. tires.

> NOTE TO WHOMEVER MAINTAINS THE TIRE SIZE CALCULATOR - PLEASE ADD THE OE 155X15 TIRE SIZE FOR THE 1.7/1.8 914s OUT THERE!
- BTW - mine is a 2L, so I'm suggesting this for others.

Members here & other owners can best provide the road handling input, since MT, R&T, C&D, etc. don't test these "older size/profile" tires anymore.

Although, you could get old period issues online with road tests of them (Oldmag.com, etc.), but they wouldn't equate to today's makers nor materials & tread patterns. I have some of those old mags., but unless those publishers give a release for posting such vintage articles, we cannot post them here (scans/pix), & probably similarly for even the tire makers vintage ads (although Bowlsby has some on the PCA 914 SIG site).

ALSO - I understood from the tire suppliers back in the 80s & from what I'm seeing/reading now, you may have to "roll the fenders" in order to fit anything over 185s on the 914, or risk tearing them up on the sidewalls.
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this fender vs. tire issue?

FYI for those who are unfamiliar with the term "rolling the fenders" - that was taking a baseball bat, pipe or similar to carefully roll along the inner fender flange (part of body sheet metal at the 914 fenders which turns in towards the wheels) - primarily at the top of the arch in the rear fenders & often all around at fronts (due to wheel turning action), in order to slowly push the flange up against the fender body panel's inner face, in order to make more clearance room & eliminate the sharp unfinished edge as a sidewall cutting risk. But I don't know if doing that causes problems as a modification for the CW & show types??
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this CW issue?

Hope this helps!

Very few manufacturers make the "correct" size. Vredenstein (made in Holland) is one. Also Michelin available from Coker tire. There are at least two manfacturers of "budget" modern tires, Kuhmo and Nanking(not sure that is correct, but close) who make 165/80x15. They are not speed rated but I believe they are perfectly safe for any 914. If you want more of a modern performance tire with more choices you have to go to 195/65x15. They are very close to stock diameter but not exact.
As Tom says, use the tire calculator to see the difference.

Tod & Jim

There are also the Pirelli 165HR15s at the links I provided above - which they've reintroduced over the past year, as well as Lucas at those links with the Pirellis also handle the Michelin XAS etc. too I believe.

Check with your local Pirelli & Michelin dealers to see if they can special order them for you & at what prices. Let us all know back here what you find out on those. You can probably bargain better with your local shop for a deal in this economy, rather than just taking whatever the online prices are now. They're all hungry for business to stay afloat, & usually appreciate the local patronage!

As for the non-rated budget tires, I'd stay away from them since they're not built to withstand the type of lateral forces which 914s can generate, even in "normal" (for a 914) street driving. That's why Porsche spec'd it that way!

I've had the hairy experience of a new set of the "wrong" Michelins disintegrate on me on the freeway at 70mph in my `88 VW Vanagon CamplerGL (Westfalia), after they didn't tell me that the proper tires had been discontinued. I had my 2 then small kids in the car then too when they blew out! Westy's don't corner fast like a 914, but they're tall, narrow track, have skinny 185/75x15 tires carrying 4500+ lbs loaded, & therefore beat the out of tires. We've stepped up to light truck/RV tires on it now for safety

Also at Bowlsby's 914 SIG site link below, they list several optional OE tire setups, one of which was 185/75VR15 & I've seen it as 185/70VR15 & in the HR variety too somewhere else.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm

There are some of those 185s around today too, so you could look at those since the 185/70x15 is only 0.8% fast, or the 185/75x15 is only 2.1% slow (according to the tire calculator).

Whereas the now common 195/65x15 is double the former's error at 1.6% fast. I also seem to recall that the 195s require rolling the fenders, as well as the fronts rubbing on the inner wheel wells when you're close to the stops. That was why I ended up sticking with the "wrong" 165SR15 Klebers back in the early 1980's! ...although those could've been for the taller 195/70 or 75 sizes which were out then, but are rare now?

However, I don't know if the CW police ding you for having that type of "period upgrade" if it wasn't originally on the car?

Who wants to tip-toe around corners in a 914!? ...get the proper tires & it!

FYI - A TIRE AD FROM MY COPY OF ROAD & TRACK FEB 1973 (The one with their "914/2 Road Test" article)

Click to view attachment

BTW - Don't expect those prices today , nor try calling them or driving over there - I think they're long gone!

My original Continental spare is a 165/15 380, for what it's worth.

Also, for what it's worth, I've run 195/60 Yoko A008R's with no modifications & no rubbing.

Still undecided as to what tires to put on the car, but I WILL NOT play the game with remoulded Michelins. There comes a time when safety is paramount over orginality. Yes, I said that!
Pat

I rejected the Michelins due to excessive price. But I don't understand how they can be any less safe than they were 40 years ago. I don't recall any more catastrophic tire failure of quality radials in 1970 than in 2009. Our light weight four cylinder cars certainly don't need the tires required on my '06 Carerra.

[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 7 2009, 06:32 PM' post='1177744']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1176564' date='Jun 4 2009, 01:41 PM']
[quote name='tod914' post='1176510' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']

ALSO - I understood from the tire suppliers back in the 80s & from what I'm seeing/reading now, you may have to "roll the fenders" in order to fit anything over 185s on the 914, or risk tearing them up on the sidewalls.
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this fender vs. tire issue?

FYI for those who are unfamiliar with the term "rolling the fenders" - that was taking a baseball bat, pipe or similar to carefully roll along the inner fender flange (part of body sheet metal at the 914 fenders which turns in towards the wheels) - primarily at the top of the arch in the rear fenders & often all around at fronts (due to wheel turning action), in order to slowly push the flange up against the fender body panel's inner face, in order to make more clearance room & eliminate the sharp unfinished edge as a sidewall cutting risk. But I don't know if doing that causes problems as a modification for the CW & show types??
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this CW issue?

Hope this helps!
[/quote]
My original Continental spare is a 165/15 380, for what it's worth.

Also, for what it's worth, I've run 195/60 Yoko A008R's with no modifications & no rubbing.

Still undecided as to what tires to put on the car, but I WILL NOT play the game with remoulded Michelins. There comes a time when safety is paramount over orginality. Yes, I said that!
Pat
[/quote]

Thanx for the input on the 195s Pat.

I suspect that the early 1985s during the late 1970s & early 1980s were a taller profile of perhaps 195/70 - 80 x 15, & therefore stuck out further to rub when wheels were turned to the locks.

I'm sure that the OE 165 & 155 Michelins are just as safe as they ever were, if not a bit better with current rubber compounds. I just think that at $200-300+ per tire, they're waaaaay over priced for what you get! Heck - they were only $37 in that 1973 ad I posted above!

However, those 195/60HR15s probably stick like glue!!!!

[edit] PS - That 37+ year old Conti spare is pretty much worthless today, so I hope you're not relying on that if you get a flat!?

They're not less safe per tire today, for the specified use. ...proper specified use & tire for your particular vehicle being the operative word. My "off spec dangers" example up above was not for a 914.

The "disintegrating tires" I was referring to above, were some 8 ply (6 sidewall + 2 tread) Michelins which they had specifically made for the 85-91 Vanagons & Westfalia's to withstand the high side-forces generated on a tall & narrow track & heavy van running on skinny tires.

Rather than tell me that the proper OES spec'd tire was discontinued by Michelin & letting me make an intelligent choice, the tire shop substituted lesser quality passenger car tires which Michelin had listed as the "new replacement" - which had a far less stiff 4 ply (2+2) radial that flexed a lot more & eventually blew themselves out due to flex & resultant heat!!!

It was the subject of a big NHTSA & DOT recall campaign against Michelin & VW back in the early/mid-1990s!

So - no worries on those Michelins in the proper size & speed rating, but I agree that they're way too high $$$ for what they are, & the Pirellis are too!

OK CWs out there -

....what about splitting the difference between the "stock" 165(/80)HR15 (or SR) or 155(/80)SR15 - & - the 195/65HR-VR15 (195/60 in Pat's case)?

would the CW judges ding a car for having the 185/70 or 185/75 x15 in either HR or VR speed rating, since it was an optional factory upgrade????

914 SIG Options shows:
"M471 - 914/6 GT Equipment-Steel flares, 6Jx15 Alloy wheels with 185/75VR15 tires, 5.5Jx15 Alloy wheels with 165HR15 tires, 66mm wheel bolts, 21mm wheel spacers front and rear"

If they still ding you - is PCA saying that ONLY the tires as spec'd on your tire label &/or Munroney window sticker etc. is acceptable???

They do and have in the past. The correct CW tire is one that matches the factory tire size designation (check your owners manual and tire size stickers) and is period correct, for THAT vehicle and MY. I learned the hard way on my "SIX" at the Portland Parade. I had a contemporary tire and was dinged. Correctly so, as the emphasis of the judging leans towards originality and condition. I opted for a set of the Michelin XAS 165H15 since. I have been surprised at how many positive comments I receive about running the period correct tires at various shows ( and not just from judges). People looking for originality expect the tires to just one more component to be considered.

Having run both contemporary profile and original (currently) I can truly say that I like the ride of the original better.

As to Pat's safety concern, I say BUNK! All tires for sale are required to meet current day DOT requirements regardless of moulding.

So James - does that mean any period tire maker only for mfgr?

...or only those supplied OES on the 914s in 70-76 - e.g.: Dunlop, Continental, Michelin & maybe Semperit & Pirelli?

...and Vredstein is not acceptable as a "modern maker"?

...or is it just the size & speed rating only by any maker?

I agree with the 165s vs. "fatties" giving a better ride - cuz the bigger tires have larger mass/weight & therefore more resistance in rolling inertia, as well as the lower profile tires transmitting more road bumps etc.!

Other stock/street 914s which I've driven with the 195s seemed slower to get going (esp. 1.7s) & not a quick turning. ...of course, that's aside from the souped up versions & AXs!

I wonder what PCA would do if NOBODY made the old sizes any more????

In my research, I could not find any "manufacturer" specific requirements put forth by Porsche. Only the tire descriptor info (size and speed rating). Any tire meeting the size and speed rating found in the owners manual or on the tire label in the trunk or on the door jamb (irrespective of tire manufacturer) would be a proper tire for the car. However to step up to concour judging level, it also should be "period" correct. That is to say, a tire available during the time of car manufacturer.

If the tire manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) was available back in the '70s, then you would be safe.

[quote name='Jasfsmith' date='Jun 9 2009, 08:07 AM' post='1178495']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1178248' date='Jun 8 2009, 09:49 PM']
[quote name='Jasfsmith' post='1177924' date='Jun 8 2009, 07:49 AM']
[/quote]

In my research, I could not find any "manufacturer" specific requirements put forth by Porsche. Only the tire descriptor info (size and speed rating). Any tire meeting the size and speed rating found in the owners manual or on the tire label in the trunk or on the door jamb (irrespective of tire manufacturer) would be a proper tire for the car. However to step up to concour judging level, it also should be "period" correct. That is to say, a tire available during the time of car manufacturer.

If the tire manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) was available back in the '70s, then you would be safe.
[/quote]

Thanx for the clarification!

So it seems that one must ante up the very high price of $200-300+ apiece for either the Michelin or Pirelli correct size/rating & period repros for the CW crowd!

Dunlop SP's are still around, but they are NOT a separate company anymore - actually just a brand name for Goodyear in the USA - AND they're not available in 165HR15 right now
- so they're out.

Semperits don't come to the USA, nor do they have that size today. ...they were great tires too - I had both M401 & M266 on mine, but they're NLA now!

Continental owns Semperit & the Euro-Dunlop brand name, but do not make anything in the proper size anymore either.

Klebers were around then & have been owned by Michelin since 1995, but don't offer the size/rating today (I had their race developed V10s put on my `73 914-2L in 83) & they were great tires! ...but can't get them today either!

Vredsteins are only good for the mere mortals wanting to drive the OE size & speed rating tires at a +/- 50% lower price to those above - at $105 apiece!

unless....

Does anyone know if Vredsteins were around during the 1970's????

VREDESTEIN TIRE UPDATE

Okay - I just did some on-line research on the Vredestein Classic Tires.

DOES ANYONE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF VREDESTEIN WAS PRODUCING - HOPEFULLY IN SIZES: 155SR15 &/OR 165HR15 AUTO TIRES - DURING THE 914's 1970-77 PRODUCTION TIME FRAME?????

If so, then they would be a more cost effective alternative for the CWs too!

According to this press release from 5/09 - they were bought from Michelin by a Russian Co. in 2005, which went BK - & now Vredestein was bought 4/09 by Apollo Tyres of India (Tata's in their future?). Production remains in the Netherlands, with now interruptions in production during their former parent company's BK.

That article says that they'd been an independent tire company since 1946, but it's not clear if they produced tires for the 914 fitment during 70-77?

see this link:
http://www.vredestein.com/Media_Nieuwsberi...sionID=85063899


According to their Tire Design & Spec info on their website, their "Classic" tires are all mfgd to current standards, methods & compounds - see below:

You can download Tire Info. at:
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006...sionID=85063899

Vredestein Home:
http://www.vredestein.com/
http://www.vredestein.com/index.asp?TaalID=1

VREDESTEIN "CLASSIC SPRINT" 165(/80)HR15 TIRE EXAMPLE:

Click to view attachment

Hope this helps someone out there!

My car is not a concour candidate, but here's my 155SRx15 Vredensteins installed last week. $84 each plus shipping and mount balance.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

Here's a list of comparable period correct tires from our kin at the 356 Registry, which is about a year old now, that I found at the following 356Reg. links:

http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic...a51a07ed95f6cf9

http://356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=615

<snipped>
These are all still in production though your local tire man may need to
order them up.

( the last number is the diameter in mm)

165SR15 B.F.Goodrich W/W Tire 635
165SR15 Dayton W/W Tire 635
165SR15 Michelin XZX Tire 646
165SR15 Firestone F560 Tire 646
165HR15 Vredestein Classic Tire 645
165HR15 Michelin XAS Tire 646
165SR15 Vredestein Tire 645
180HR15 Michelin XAS Tire 680
185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 652
185/70HR15 Avon CR6ZZ Tire 635
185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tire 641
185/70HR15 Vredestein Classic Tire 650
185/70VR15 Pirelli Cinturato CN36 Tire 652
<end snip>

nOTE: I've bolded the ones above which I've seen on-line recently, & the Pirelli CN36's may be dupes of the same tire.

Also, Lucas & Coker seem to have additional sizes of the Pirellis & Michelins available, beyond those on this list. ...just go to their websites -

Some on the list are white wall (ww), which would need to be mounted inside out on a 914 to "look right" - but then the sidewall markings may not??

EDITED - DELETE

Lotsa good vintage tire info at this link:
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/Choose-your-rubber.php

MORE UPDATES ON VINTAGE TIRES' AVAILABILITY:

Longstone Tyres UK carries a wide selection of vintage tires over in "Limey-land" (that's "P.O.M.E.-land for our "Aussie" friends), and will ship to the USA &/or sells tires through their US affiliate.
Longstone Tyres UK Home:
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/index.php


Their USA agent is Lucas Tires (Long Beach CA & Springfield OH), but their website doesn't have the search option at the tire size search links below by Longstone, but Lucas should be able to source anything which Longstone offers.
Lucas Tires Home:
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/


Here's what comes up for the Longstone UK tire searches as available today, & it seems similar to that 356Reg list:

Note that the Prices there are in British Pounds Stirling, & Google gives the current Pound to Dollar Exchange Rate as: "1 British pound = 1.6335 U.S. dollars" - So multiply their prices by 1.65 to be easier.

165x15
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search.php...chTerm=165+X+15


155x15
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search.php...chTerm=155+X+15


This tire search is as of 6/9/09

Vredsteins were available in the '70s.

According to the guy at Lucas Tires, Vredsteins were not OES & won't qualify as CW for shows!

"Vredestein was not an O.E. manufacturer, and would not be a period correc tire for car shows." - Robert Montgomery, Lucas Automotive

I'm getting some prices & additional info. from him on 165HR15s of various brands, which I'll post when I get them back from him.

Here's another matter to ponder for the CWs out there:

Both the currently available Pirelli CN36 165HR15s & the Michelin XAS 165HR15s are TUBE-TYPE tires - NOT tubeless as OE on 1973+ 914s (& perhaps earlier too) - so they're really NOT the proper OE tire for 914s either!!!! ...plus they're extremely expensive for a set of 4-5!!!!

Porsche (& VW) came out with the then "new" 5.5J x 15 rims & alloys in model year 1973 (1972) specifically for tubeless radials, so I doubt that I'd want to take a step backward from 1973 technology today to tubes!!!!

I also question the judging logic of PCA deducting points for the wrong make tire in the proper size & tubeless type, while not deducting points for the improper tube-type tires in the proper size/rating & period or repro maker.

It would seem that PCA etc. should make allowances for the time when actual OE maker/size/rating/type tires are NLA at all, but repros like the Vredstein "Sprint Classics" are available!

I've never shown my 914, but I've read some of the PCA's CW rules - & they both expect correct maker, size/rating & type of tires on the car, & expect you to drive the car to the events & in the Parades - for the maximum points to be achieved!

So - since they're NLA in 165HR15 tubeless radial by ANY of the OE tire manufacturers of the period, that only leaves driving on an extremely old & absolutely unsafe set of 32-40 year old tires on a 914!!!!

Are those PCA "Rulemakers" Nucking Futz!????
...or just completely out of touch with reality & safe driving, or mentally challenged or something???

Is there a way to petition PCA to instead accept & score based upon the closest combination(s) of the currently available OES/OEM/period/repro makers' features of: brand/mfgr. name, tire model/name (e.g.: Dunlop's SP57, Pirelli's CN36, Michelin's XAS, etc.), size/speed rating &/or tube or tubeless type - since nobody can do them all with a safe tire today??

...in other words: PCA would score for the best combination of those factors & features, with the adds/deducts for each category under tires?

...for example:

A tubeless Vredestein "Sprint Classic" 165HR15 radial would lose 1 pt. for being a non-OE maker/mfgr/brand,

while a tube-type Pirelli CN36 or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 would lose 1 pt. for not being tubeless,

- thereby BOTH are equal in points, period correct & are safe to drive!

Somewhere many months ago in this thread and others, I argued that the best available concours option for a 914-4 is the tubeless Michelin XZX. It is S rated but my original spare 155SR Michelin is a ZX (the second X came sometime after 1970). I also once owned a '76 914 with factory tires and they were also S rated Michelins. Not sure if ZX or XZX.

Jim - those work fine for the 914 1.7s & 1.8s out there which OE spec'd 155SR15, but we 2.0 914-4 owners were OE spec'd with 165HR15s - ergo the "rub"!!

FYI - XWXs here at Longstone (Lucas):
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/productPag...name=radial.php
^--- check here, then call them there ---v
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/

It looks like those XZX's may also be tube-type, since that link above lists a tube when you click to purchase, but I can't get them to come up at all on the Coker Tire site with a description as such.

I will only echo points that I've made in the past.

You can not put "real" CW tires on an early 914 without giving up safety & handling. I still have my original Continental tube-type spare. Holds air, but only until the tibe expires. Wouldn't trust it for eve a 100 mile trip.

Vredesteins were NEVER an original US spec 914 tire.

Yep, you can get XAS's, with tubes, from Coker. Yep, they'll appear original for a four. Yep, they'll cost you 2 grand to get installed (total). Yep, they'll handle just like they did in the early 70's, which is why everyone dumped them. Yep, you can say similar things about XWX's for sixers.

I'm a diehard CW, but when it comes to safety, it's time to rethink. Yep, you'll get gigged at a major show for the tires, but at least you got there & can get back home.
Pat

EDITED - DELETE

[quote name='Tom_T' date='Jun 10 2009, 08:40 PM' post='1179239']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 10 2009, 07:19 PM' post='1179228']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1179163' date='Jun 10 2009, 06:13 PM']
[quote name='Jasfsmith' post='1178902' date='Jun 10 2009, 06:44 AM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1178731' date='Jun 9 2009, 08:56 PM']
Is there a way to petition PCA to instead accept & score based upon the closest combination(s) of the currently available OES/OEM/period/repro makers' features of: brand/mfgr. name, tire model/name (e.g.: Dunlop's SP57, Pirelli's CN36, Michelin's XAS, etc.), size/speed rating &/or tube or tubeless type - since nobody can do them all with a safe tire today??

...in other words: PCA would score for the best combination of those factors & features, with the adds/deducts for each category under tires?

...for example:

A tubeless Vredestein "Sprint Classic" 165HR15 radial would lose 1 pt. for being a non-OE maker/mfgr/brand,

while a tube-type Pirelli CN36 or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 would lose 1 pt. for not being tubeless,

- thereby BOTH are equal in points, period correct & are safe to drive!
[/quote]
You can not put "real" CW tires on an early 914 without giving up safety & handling. I still have my original Continental tube-type spare. Holds air, but only until the tibe expires. Wouldn't trust it for eve a 100 mile trip.

I'm a diehard CW, but when it comes to safety, it's time to rethink. Yep, you'll get gigged at a major show for the tires, but at least you got there & can get back home.
Pat
[/quote]

So Pat - you're a PCA member & respected multiple concours winner - can't you & others of your stature in PCA petition for some sort of a more sane rating system, such as what I'd suggested above for tires?
[/quote]
Chuckle here!

Look, I first noticed that something was wierd about tires for PCA Parade purposes in '93. That was the year I chaired the Parade Concours.

As you might expect, I'd spent over a year in prep for the event & couldn't enter my own car (well it just didn't seem right to do so). But I noticed way back then that entrants were being slaughtered for not having "original" tires.

I was amzed at how many Porsches were whapped for major points because of unoriginal tires. Many competitors lost solely on tires. Set me to thinking.

Tried to make the point with the Parade Concours Comitte that tires were a "safety" thing and should be thought of as the relief given to early 911 owners who had hydropneumatic struts( which were given the OK to substitute). Fell on deaf ears. Two members of the committee ruled me out as a crackpot. The third admitted that I had concerns, but was ruled by the rules. That was 2 years ago. I gave up up after several unanswered appeals.

One one hand I can see the concerns -maximization of purity. Hard to argue with.

On the other hand, I feel that safety should be paramount over originality (yeah, I know...).

I would only suggest tht a grass roots movement be started to change this absurd rule. Be happy to apply my name.
Pat

EDITED - DELETE

i know these "westerns" are aftermarket, (15x5.5) but i've seen these more often than not on early 73's like mine. this group mentioned are the first 1000 + - sent over to fill sales, origanally slated for europe. i'm thinking the dealer put them on a majority of them???

Click to view attachment