I recently spoke to one of the owners at Eurotire ( 973 575-0080 ) in Fairfield NJ. Bill mentioned that they have been a Vredestein dealer since the 70s, and still carry their tires to this day. He mentioned a road and track tire test from 1976 as well. I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering more specific questions if either of you guys called him.

[quote name='Tom_T' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:52 PM' post='1184301']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:49 PM' post='1184235']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184108' date='Jun 22 2009, 12:37 PM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184043' date='Jun 22 2009, 10:25 AM']
[/quote]
I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.

If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.

Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!
[/quote]

It still sounds to me for us 914-2L 4s - like you're going to lose 3 pts. - if any, as Pat & others say regarding level of judging & time allowed - ANY WAY YOU GO!

165HR15 Tubless Radial Vredesteins - DING! for not being a USA/OE supplier

165SR15 Michelin XZX Tubeless - DING! for not HR rated

165HR15 Michelin XAS Tube-type - DING! for not Tubeless

185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tubeless - DING! for being an Optional Upgrade size

185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 Tube-type - DOUBLE DING! for not Tubeless & not OE

195/65HR-VR15 Anything - DINGUS OFF! for everything - except for that official Porsche letter in German!?
...but they'll probably handle best of all - if not too heavy!

That's it - they're all over at PCA Rules Committees & Judging!

I'm tellin ya! ...it's a "tail-dragger" conspiracy to keep us 914s outta the runnin!!!!

[/quote]

Tom,
What are you? A purist?
BTW good research!

I don't think it's a taildragger conspiracy. I think it's a few people who are trying to maintain 100% purity when it comes to tires. I honestly think that they think they are doing the right thing. Who knows, if I were a member of the Committee, I may lean towards those ends. But, I'm not.

Fact is, most of the tires you mentioned are unobtainable. If I could get a fresh set of Cn36's I'd.....well I'd go elsewhere.

I want contemporary materials, production methods and performance. No, I don't want to :pooch: my fenders with a baseball bat to make them fit. Nor do I want GT flares.

All I want is a contemporary tire that fits my wheels & fenders, without modification.

What I (personally) want id a tire that is the equivalent of the Yoko A008R's of 15 years ago. That way, I can autocross when I want to, rally when I want to, concours when I want to (yeah, I can afford the poits), and be safe. Oh, I also DON'T want them to cost 200 bucks apiece.
So....any guesses where I'm leaning?
Pat

As the tire turns... Pat's car remains on jackstands. I'm going for the Vanders on Monday. Very difficult choice, but they are reasonably priced. Painted my new boge oil shocks grey so what do you expect. Pat I see your point with the tires. Better drivability, saftey, etc. The difference in size can be negligable. Think you and your wife can make it out to the VW fest this year in Flanders?

Pat & All,

All of those on the above & prior lists are currently available - if some by special order, via Lucas Automotive/Tires at the 1st link below, & they're located in Long Beach CA & Springfield, OH (just down the street from Bart Simpson ).

They can get anything which Longstone Tyres (UK) carries at the 2nd link below, because Lucas is Longstone's USA rep., but only the DOT approved ones are street legal (Robert below can tell you which are/aren't).

http://www.lucasclassictires.com/
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/radial.php

Email to Robert Montgomery at Lucas for questions, prices, etc.:
sales@lucasclassictires.com

He also told me that Pirelli is supposedly bringing back the CN36 in 165HR15 & has moved the tooling/molds to Ireland for production, but he doesn't know when.

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Okay CW experts on 1973 2Ls out there - I need HELP!!!!

I've been looking at a bunch of Fuchs 2L Alloys FS - mostly in sets of 4 & a few with 5, but from years mfgd all over the place, & have questions before I spend a bunch of coin on the wrong ones.

So how important is it that they all have the same mfg date stamped on the back for all 5 as in OE sets, &/or that they be from either the same 9/72 build date of my 914 or at least in the same 1973 MY????

But before you jump in to answer - consider the following:

My VIN 4732901954 was subject to the Fuchs 2L Alloy Wheel Replacement Program under the BO Recall for ALL 73 MY 2L cars produced up thru Dec. 1972, so that essentially NONE would have had matching wheel/car mfgr dates, since they were swapped out for later ones!

You can read the VW America/Porsche letters to the dealers with full instructions at the web link below, & the BO & BH Recalls are at the bottom of the page linked below, & the links in the right column thereon go to scanned pages of the dealer letters.

http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm

BO applies to the Fuchs 2L Alloys on 2.0's like mine (VIN...1954), BH to the M485 option's alloys - Pedrini & 4-lig Mahles I think (& for far less # of cars).

Both recalls were because the alloy wheels of all types subject to BO/BH were manufactured incorrectly & lacking the inset ring around the center hole into which fit the "new" self-centering hubs on the front as introduced in the 73 MY. They instruct dealers to pull off the wrong alloys & send them back for a new set to be sent at a future date TBD, & put steel wheels on temporarily. Ergo, returned wheels may also have been returned & re-machined with the inset, & then used on later build date 914s & not match some later 73MY cars as well!?

So - can I look for wheels that fall within a range of dates on the Fuchs Alloys (real ones of course), which would match the time period that the dealers might have taken to get "correct" wheels back from PAG/VWA????

...& if so, what is that date range to be acceptable to the CWs & judges at PCA, etc.?


BTW - mine either got 4 Rivieras & a steel spare instead, or the PO changed the Fuchs for those before I got the 914 in 12/75, so I'm trying to get it back to proper OE fitment.

TIA !!!!!!!

John Takehara, the National Concours chairman, was kind enough to respond to our tire question.

Dear Tod:

Vu forwarded your e-mail to me regarding the 914 tire size. First, let me say that I am a very active “lurker” on the 914world website and think that it is one of the best sites, second let me tell you that I have a 914 track car.



To answer your question:



In the Restoration Group and the Preservation Group, the Vredestein 165 HR 15 would be fine without loosing any points. Since that tire size is very difficult to find, I would say that the modern size of 195 65 H 15 would be suitable also.





I hope this helps,



John Takehara

National Concours Chairman

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Tom I ended up with the Conti procontacts 195 65 H 15s. What I noticed was, the Vre.'s. were narrower than my original spare, which is also a Conti. I did notice a difference in pick from the 195 60's to the 195 65. Well at the spedo is correct now.
Couple of my buddies with British sports cars have the Vre's. They said they love them. And after seeing them on their cars, that would be my choice over the Contis. Hindsight is always 20-20. I didn't like they way they looked when I seen them in the rack, but being mounted, does them justice. Priceing is so close, can't go wrong if you elect to get them.

Tod - the Vred's tread pattern & width do seem to be patterned after the Coopers & other British "tyres" of the 1960's & `70's, as opposed to the OE Conti's, Michelin's & Dunlop SP57's of the same 165HR15 size back then. So they may have slightly less section width & resultant slightly smaller contact patch than a far more expensive & tubed Mich XAS - but not enough to worry about.

The Vred's tread pattern is very similar to my current c.1983 Kleber 165SR15 which I posted before on this thread - as the 914 holds down the blocks in my garage, so they'd probably handle pretty good too.

However, I wouldn't worry too much about the 20:20 thing on the Conti Procontact 195/65HR15s - particularly with the CW answer that you got & the fact that they will have a significantly larger contact patch than the OE 165s with only a nominal 1.6% speedo/odometer error!

It's only 0.8% error if you were to ever find reasonably priced 185/75HR15 (or VR), but I'm not paying $450+ each for Michelin's XWX VRs!!!! ...but that size was offered 'back in the day' by Porsche as part of the M471 Option package listed here: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm

So either way you won't have the over mileage odometer problem you had with your other 914 running 195/60s or whatever they were.

Those Conti's are supposed to be excellent tires & the CWs & Judges apparently won't grade you down for them either!

Plus - I'll bet that those 195/65HR15 Conti Pro's are Pat Garvey's secret tires he's not telling anyone about!

Umm, no. Too many negative reviews. Decision still up in the air, but have other "fish to fry" right now. You may all be surprised.
Pat

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Tire fish? When the 914 hits pavement this fall, you'll know.

Other "fish"....a problem with my 95 year old mother, which seems to have settled down for now.

Other "fish 2" - stay tuned. Could get interesting!
Pat

FYI - RE: Semperit Tires being delivered on 914s & Porsches, as quoted on the pages noted from the period auto magazine articles contained within:
"PORSCHE 914 - Ultimate Portfolio", compiled by R.M. Clarke, publ. Brooklands Books Ltd., P.O. Box 146, Cobham, Surrey, KT11 1LG. UK, ISBN 1-85520-4320
- available thru B&N.com, Borders.com, Amazon.com, etc.

BTW - Great Reference! - this is an excellent compilation of many/most of the 914 related magazine articles from the era 1969-1976, as well as some post-era look-back reviews - all compiled within one softback volume. It sure beats buying used magazines to get each one!

Quotes from the above as noted:

"This is a 911T in its normal habitat. Porsche uses little known (in the U.S.) but very excellent Semperit radial tires as standard equipment." - emphasis added
- Photo caption on bottom left, at pp. 111, from: "Porsche" article, "Road Test" magazine, Jan. 1971 (starts on pp. 110)

...and to quell the next anticipated argument against there being any Semperit tires on US sold 914s....

"...The distributor had shown mercy on the test car with a set of wider , 5.5-inch chrome-plated wheels and larger 165 HR 15 Semperit radial tires...." - emphasis added
- Within second paragraph from end of article at pp.73, from: "Porsche 914 Road Test" article, "Road & Track" magazine, July 1970 (starts on pp. 69)

I rest my case - Semperit tires were both used by the factory on all Porsches in the model range during the 1970's, as well as being available here in the USA from the distributors.

Additionally, the changeover to self-centering "hub-centric" front hubs in the 1973 MY initial months, resulted in the BH (Mahle & Pedrini Alloys) & BO (Fuchs 2L Alloys) Factory Recalls, wherein the factory via the distributors supplied the dealers with replacement sets of wheels & tires with the appropriate hub-centric inset machined into the back of the alloy wheels.

Ergo, Semperit tires such as the 165HR15 on my spare in the pic in an earlier post here, was in fact the OE tire for my early 1973 914-2.0 originally sold in CA on 11/9/72 & built in September 1972 - on the new for 73 MY 914 hub-centric "Mag-look" steelie" probably due to dealer theft of the Fuchs spare! And they probably were on some other USA 914s along the way too!

Click to view attachment

These were great handling tires which lasted 40,000 under most driving conditions - even a hard driving 914 or 911, as compared to the far more expensive soft-rubber Dunlop SP57s getting chewed up within 20,000 miles under even easy driving! The road tire tests of the day upheld this fact, with Semperits regularly performing as well or better than the pricier & oft touted Michelins, Continentals, Pirellis & Dunlops, etc., as well as against the USA domestic brands!

Too bad Semperit doesn't export great tires to the USA anymore, although they do still sell them in Euro-Land.

Any Euro-Teeners still using Semperits??
...if so, how are they??

Umm, don't think I'd rely on that spare after these many years. Still have my original Conti spare for my 72, which looks great & hold air under no stress, but I'd never put it on the road.

Sorry, never used Semperits. Went from Conti to Pirelli CN36's, which is another story.
Pat

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I’m in the process of revitalizing my ’75 2.0 that has been sitting in my garage since the ‘80s (no time or money). The PO painted (and I use the term loosely) the stock steel wheels WHITE. Vintage photos indicate those wheels should be GREY.
My question – what is the correct GREY color?

Click to view attachment
Best choice is Wurth metallic silver wheel paint topped with their clear. Expensive, but closest to original finish. Comes in spray cans from various online sources.

You'll need to be more specific about the type of wheels that you're talking about, & maybe post pix of them for folks on here to see what you're dealing with DAPO-wise!

Pedrini & Mahle 4 lug Alloys were painted silver, Fuchs 2 Liter Alloys were polished with satin background anodized & the steelies were either Silver or black or a color depending upon year & model/engine of 914 & optional equipment. The grey you saw in old pix may have just been silver?

A 75 2.0 could've had any of the above wheels originally (steel "star" mag-style would've been silver), but we don't know which wheels you're talking about yet!

He wrote "stock steel" Tom. On a '75 they would have been these.
Click to view attachment
Wurth silver.

Thanks for the clarification on the wheel color. I did a double take when I saw the picture of the Scarlet Red car pop up. That's probably exactly the way mine would have looked from the factory.

Thanks again.

The red car has chrome trim rings added. Not stock, but a look I like on the steel wheels. Your wheels came with black plastic lug bolt head covers, in case they are no longer present.

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Yes, I noticed the chrome trim rings. Mine do not have the rings, however, all the black plastic lug bolt caps are still present and accounted for. Bought some 4 bolt Fuch's to put on anyway.

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If you need those Fuchs 2L's restored, Weideman Wheels in Oroville CA & Al Reed Polishing in Anaheim CA do outstanding work & both come highly recommended here. They can fix any rash, repolish the petals & rims, satin background & re-anodize them back to the OE finish for you. At 10 lbs. each they're not too heavy to ship, but may be cheaper as singles or double from TX.

BTW - the OE silver cad/zinc plated lug bolts for those may still be available from Porsche at about $17 each. Otherwise, repro chrome ones are also available - but check that they're the proper thread lag/space at the top & acorn shape to fir the inset in the wheel - one vendor on TheSamba in San Antonio does what appear to be the proper fitment repros (near you maybe). But the center caps are NLA, so there are some NOS that come up at the usual online places, plus repros at AA or billet aluminum repors from several sources at TheSamba, etc.

Good Luck with those too ~ you'll like the look!

Not my intention here to do anything but ask a question. I am not too familiar with the "starburst" steelies, so I wonder if the factory used a clearcoat over the silver. Just asking, because I had my 72 steelies redone years ago in Wurth silve & clearcoat & they've held up well. Not original, but I like them, and they don't oxidize. Just curious.
Pat

I'm not sure Pat, but I kinda doubt that they used a clear coat on the wheels. Back then all of the non-metallic body colors were color coats only, with only the 3=step metallics having a clear coat. That said, what you & the others have done to clear coat makes sense, since it protects the silver (or other color) paint from the acidic brake dust, road salts, etc.

Does anyone know if the silver painted Mahles & Pedrinis were originally clear-coated back in the day from the factory?

... another just curious!?

My guess is that clear was not used in the day. Not really essential now either, especially if the car is not going to see hard use. I used it on the sets I have done because it was so much work to prep the wheels that I wanted to protect my work.

The 74 I sold, had the original steel wheel and tire. No clear coat was on it. The back of the wheel was sprayed black. And not very well.

Click to view attachment

Tod, they were all that way. I think they were painted black first, then the silver - which dusted over onto the back side which gave it the "not very well painted" look.
Afterall, they were just VW workers!

Agree with you Tom. On my 72, the wheels were black on the back & front nut center - silver dusting on the fronts. I changed that to make them more attractive. Yes, I'm guilty of non-original steels wheel finish. Doesn't matter, because my chromies will be there for the rest of my life anyway.

Shame on me!
Pat

Ahh black first. That makes sence.

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or you can really go non concours and do this with your Fuchs....

looks pretty good on the L908 '75 I am building

I am refinishing my original Late-Steel wheels. The car came with two sets, one set of Rivieras, and the original steelies from 1974. The spare is in place and in fine shape. The other four were left outside for 20+ years.

So, they are off to be sandblasted right now, and I plan to re-spray asap. I had assumed Wurth Silver would be a close match to factory, but now I find that I can't get it shipped here to CA!

Anyone know where I can buy it WITHIN CA, si don't have to have it shipped into the state?

As for tires, I have all 5 of the originally equipped Michelins. The Riv's will be trod with something fitting for road use, while the Steelies will have the original tired re-mounted.

Randy -
Try GPR, Pelican or Sierra Madre Collection for the Wurth. IIRC - PP shipped me some Wurth Primer earlier this year too, from FL.

I wouldn't trust those original Michi's to be road safe - even to/around a CdE event, but if yours was an 1.8L IIRC, there are several 165SR15 options out there which would be new, road safe & period correct. From Kumho, Bridgestone, to Michelin. If yours is a 2.0, then the 165HR15 are much more limited, or you got to 185/70VR15 XWX Michi for vintage upsize, or 195/65HR15 for current make upsize.

If you want the vintage type Mich XZX, XWX, XAS - new, then try Lucas Tires in Long Beach - worth a drive to the coast (John Ferguson there IIRC, as mentioned in my older post to someone else above), but they're not cheap, which you can check online (Longstone/Lucas, Coker, Universal, etc. all have a few vintage new made tires with pricing online)!

Try WolfsburgWest.
Pat

Pat and all,

the wheels are looking good. almost done. I have to rub them down with 0000 steel wool and then polish.

the old Michelins were too far gone to remount. so for OE looking tires, I am going to with Michelin XZX in 165SR15. Coker has them for $150 a piece.
Before I order though, I need advice on a possible substitute. There is a 165HR15 from Vredestein available, for only $100 each. Saving $200 sounds great but never heard of this tire.

Will it cost me points in CW?

Vredestein is a European brand and was around in the '70's. It was never original equipment on Porsches but was a common replacement tire. I bought a set of 155's for my steel OE '70 wheels (4.5") and am very pleased with them.
They are "period correct". Of course the XZX Michelins are closer to original equipment but not exact. The factory tire was the ZX.

Hey Jim, according to the Vredstein factory folks, they were one of the suppliers to Porsche & on 914s for Euro cars only (I think I posted their reply email in the O&H Tires thread), as were Semperit, Continental & Dunlop. Tires & mfgrs. varied over the years, models & whatever subcontract came up at the time, so various Michi X-series tires were used.

IIRC Pat Garvey's 72 914 had Conti's originally & my 73 2L had Semperit 401's on it from the factory (unless the dealership swapped the Dunlops/Fuchs for the 1st buyer - I'm 2nd owner), & I know a couple of other 914 original owners who had Sempi's as OE. Those Sempi's were great tires, handling as well as the Dunlops SP57's but lasted 3x as long!

Hell with the tires!

Ca we see pics of the wheels?
Pat

Hey Pat,
I posted them somewhere on here a few weeks back. I think they came out pretty good. I had the original spare to compare to (the one with the michelin mounted in pic), which was a great reference.

I sprayed the backs with Wurth Satin black, then the fronts with Wurth White. pics were taken at sunset, so a little dark. color looks just right compared to the OE spare.

According to the Zone 8 Judging class I took in March, they won't judge the originality aspects (e.g.: tires) at local Zone 8 CdE events, only at Parade, & some regional events in the case of "tie breakers". Vredesteins have been on Parade winners from that era.

Thanks for the info. Will be hard for this car to win, since it really is all about originality, and not how well I detail it.

But, gonna give it a try anyway.

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Not sure yet. My schedule has been screwed up. I had hope to make the Santa Barbara region event as the first on my schedule, but car is not ready.
I got seriously delayed when I decided to have the ECU and MAF completely rebuilt, instead of replacing them with used/unkown parts. That cost me 5 weeks of waiting, and a lot more cash.

I haven't even tried to fire the engine yet. All parts are back, and now we have to get back to work on it.

Unfortunately, my son's Camaro jumped in line. I have to either put new heads on an old worn out V8 or find a crate engine he can afford.

But, 914 is in good hands. It sits on a lift at a very clean shop, waiting for us.

When would the next Zone 8 event be??

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NICE! Great job.
Pat