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1970 Neun vierzehn
Besides the conundrum that seems to persist with regards to how and where our 914s are classified within PCA Concours (Preservation, Restoration, Improved/Modified), does a hard and fast guideline exist for determining specific faults, infractions or demerits and their exact impact on scoring? Cleanliness and originality can be pretty much quantified but what about the severity of our "flaws"? To wit, will I lose the same amount of points for Euro T/L lenses as I would for 195/60 series tires? Does an aftermarket radio amass the same penalty as an aftermarket steering wheel? Will a radio installation w/o an antenna be deemed as significant a flaw as the fitment of H-4 H/Ls in place of sealed beam items? Does a fire extinguisher mounting bracket precipitate the loss of points equivalent to a cracked dashboard top? And speaking of dashboard tops, does one crack carry the same burden of point loss as one with three or four flaws perhaps? Does a missing engine bay sticker burden the car as much as the wrong ignition coil might?

I'm sure the pat answer (pun intended), would be "original always trumps all else", but if a person were to concede a point loss on an item, the question is, is there a specific value assigned or is it all broadly categorized into "wheels and tires", "interior", "exterior trim", etc., etc.?

Paul
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ Aug 9 2007, 07:58 PM) *

Besides the conundrum that seems to persist with regards to how and where our 914s are classified within PCA Concours (Preservation, Restoration, Improved/Modified), does a hard and fast guideline exist for determining specific faults, infractions or demerits and their exact impact on scoring? Cleanliness and originality can be pretty much quantified but what about the severity of our "flaws"? To wit, will I lose the same amount of points for Euro T/L lenses as I would for 195/60 series tires? Does an aftermarket radio amass the same penalty as an aftermarket steering wheel? Will a radio installation w/o an antenna be deemed as significant a flaw as the fitment of H-4 H/Ls in place of sealed beam items? Does a fire extinguisher mounting bracket precipitate the loss of points equivalent to a cracked dashboard top? And speaking of dashboard tops, does one crack carry the same burden of point loss as one with three or four flaws perhaps? Does a missing engine bay sticker burden the car as much as the wrong ignition coil might?

I'm sure the pat answer (pun intended), would be "original always trumps all else", but if a person were to concede a point loss on an item, the question is, is there a specific value assigned or is it all broadly categorized into "wheels and tires", "interior", "exterior trim", etc., etc.?

Paul

Well, though I think you may be picking on me (and no harm done), I'll post my opinions (and They ARE mine, and Iim tired of making excuses for them) to the questions you've posed (remember, MY opinions & I'll NOT make apologies - not because I'm arrogant, because I'm sick od the SHIT I take for it):
1. You Will lose points for Euro signal lights - why? Because you're COA does not show your 914 as a Euro car. From a Preservation or restoration point of view, they are incorrect, unless your COA can substantiate them. I figure a loss of 3-5 points.
2. Regardless of class, you WILL lose points for the oversized tires. You know it. we've discussed it. Unlesss the judge is a bonehead (not likely), you will probably lose at least 3 points for your tires & wheels (been there, done that).

OK, wih that said, you're down 6-8 points as I see it. Even with a gorgeous restored 914 - you're out od the winning circle. Think this isn't hardcore - think again. This is for the all the marbles. This is for bragging rights. This is for respect. Are you going to blow all that money on serious restoration just because your ego won't let you unbolt the taillight lenses & put domestics in there. Why? Because you like how they look? I like 'em too, but for 4 hours I can like the car without them.

I do't get it!

Pat

I seem to recall that you have a "proper" radio for the period. That's good. But where does it say that someone MUST have a hole & antenna mounted in a 914, since they didn't come from the factory with either (other than special options).

Headlights - they all (at least early) came with sealed beam lights. Not the best, but what they came with.

Fire extinguisher - lose it! Get over your fear of fire. If it happens, your puny fire extinguisher won't help. And, it probably won't stop the fire. Sit back & watch all those bucks melt down! Just kidding, but don't display it.

Dashboard cracks - not the end of the world IMHO, unless you have multiples. If so, the parts is easily replaced - so why have them.

Wrong ignition coil? I still have mone & it will be on.

Steering wheel change - you still have your original & it can be bolted on.

OK, look - do you want to win or not? Are you going to let your little bolt-on - bolt-off idoisyncrasies keep you from scoring a place in Porsche history? C'mon, that just doesn't make sense to me. You, if any others, are poised to take this thing.

Lose the lenses. Lose the wheels. Lose the steering wheel. Take your chances with the others. It's ONE day. In fact, it's a couple of hours. Take the things off that will lose the thing for you & bolt them back on in the afternon. I just don't understand why you'd fight the rules in effect, when you can so easily get around them.

What am I missing here?
Pat
orthobiz
I think this question fits into this thread as it deals with flaws.

My 1974 has original paint and as I go through the car I see lots of little blems, little chips, some areas where it has been carefully touched up.

Is there some kind of "positive" in the eyes of the judges for originality with all of its warts and blemishes when compared to a car that has had a rotisserie restoration? Is it considered "character?"

Paul

BTW I bought a set of Fuchs and put 195/65's on it. The original steel wheels with skinny tires can be for shows (if I ever go to a show!).

Jasfsmith
QUOTE(orthobiz @ Aug 9 2007, 11:24 PM) *

I think this question fits into this thread as it deals with flaws.

My 1974 has original paint and as I go through the car I see lots of little blems, little chips, some areas where it has been carefully touched up.

Is there some kind of "positive" in the eyes of the judges for originality with all of its warts and blemishes when compared to a car that has had a rotisserie restoration? Is it considered "character?"

Paul

BTW I bought a set of Fuchs and put 195/65's on it. The original steel wheels with skinny tires can be for shows (if I ever go to a show!).


At least as far as PCA is concerned, for the 914, there's Restoration Full, Restoration Touring (no underside judging) and Preservation (also no underside judging). All Preservation classes are Touring only.

Pat's scenario above deals with the Restoration classes, where points are involved. The Preservation scoring does not involve a score, rather whether the car warrants a "rating" of "Fault", "Demerit", "Endorsement", "Compliment" or "Commendation" for 6 areas (Kardex, Utilization, Exterior, Interior, Engine and Storage.

In Preservation, original paint with warts and blemishes would not receive a Demerit. Most likely a Compliment. Obviously original paint in excellent condition would get a Commendation. A Partitial repaint (as I have two fenders, and rockers that have been repainted over the past 20 years) garnered me a Endorsement rating. I suspect a complete repaint would receive a Dermit or Endorsement depending on condition.

Touchups of paint chips and blems are not counted against you according to on judge I had. It could spell the difference between a Endorsement and a Compliment rating.

One thing to remember, there are several items in each of the areas that the judges are supposed to inspect.

In the Exterior portion they include the coachwork, exterior surfaces, glass and lights, metal and rubber trim, bumpers, wheels, coverings & tires. They are viewed for originality, condition and cleanilness in that order (at least from my observation and comments that the judges have written on my score sheets). How the judges finally arrives at one rating for each of the areas is certainly more subjective in Preservation than Restoration.

Download the PCA Concours score sheets and you'll see what I mean.
Jasfsmith
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 9 2007, 11:06 PM) *

OK, look - do you want to win or not? Are you going to let your little bolt-on - bolt-off idoisyncrasies keep you from scoring a place in Porsche history? C'mon, that just doesn't make sense to me. You, if any others, are poised to take this thing.

Lose the lenses. Lose the wheels. Lose the steering wheel. Take your chances with the others. It's ONE day. In fact, it's a couple of hours. Take the things off that will lose the thing for you & bolt them back on in the afternon. I just don't understand why you'd fight the rules in effect, when you can so easily get around them.

What am I missing here?
Pat


I would agree. At the Portland Parade, I even witnessed a entrant replace carpet pieces with what appeared to be originals, and several entrants that replaced wheels/tires that they arrive on for "limited" use wheels/tires.
Pat Garvey
At least as far as PCA is concerned, for the 914, there's Restoration Full, Restoration Touring (no underside judging) and Preservation (also no underside judging). All Preservation classes are Touring only.

Pat's scenario above deals with the Restoration classes, where points are involved. The Preservation scoring does not involve a score, rather whether the car warrants a "rating" of "Fault", "Demerit", "Endorsement", "Compliment" or "Commendation" for 6 areas (Kardex, Utilization, Exterior, Interior, Engine and Storage.

In Preservation, original paint with warts and blemishes would not receive a Demerit. Most likely a Compliment. Obviously original paint in excellent condition would get a Commendation. A Partitial repaint (as I have two fenders, and rockers that have been repainted over the past 20 years) garnered me a Endorsement rating. I suspect a complete repaint would receive a Dermit or Endorsement depending on condition.

Touchups of paint chips and blems are not counted against you according to on judge I had. It could spell the difference between a Endorsement and a Compliment rating.

One thing to remember, there are several items in each of the areas that the judges are supposed to inspect.

In the Exterior portion they include the coachwork, exterior surfaces, glass and lights, metal and rubber trim, bumpers, wheels, coverings & tires. They are viewed for originality, condition and cleanilness in that order (at least from my observation and comments that the judges have written on my score sheets). How the judges finally arrives at one rating for each of the areas is certainly more subjective in Preservation than Restoration.

Download the PCA Concours score sheets and you'll see what I mean.
[/quote]
I'm a little confused! According to the PCR's, the chassis IS judged in Preservation. It probably isn't as comprehensively judged as in Resoration, but it's supposed to be judged nonetheless. See C-5.1.2(cool.gif. True, you can opt out of any of the six components, but you won't be considered for class or division win.
Pat
Jasfsmith
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 10 2007, 04:22 PM) *

I'm a little confused! According to the PCR's, the chassis IS judged in Preservation. It probably isn't as comprehensively judged as in Resoration, but it's supposed to be judged nonetheless. See C-5.1.2(cool.gif. True, you can opt out of any of the six components, but you won't be considered for class or division win.
Pat


You are correct in the opting out of the underside judging, however I was not aware of the other areas. Now I've got to go back to the PCR's and check.

At the Portland Parade in 2006, I opted out of the underside being reviewed, yet I did receive a score sheet with judges comments. Nothing that I was unaware of having driven the 3,200 miles plus to the Parade and having a chain tensior oil line leak while in route.

At the 2007 San Diego Parade, I was prepared to be embarassed by the underside judging, I watched the judge check several items, heard no disparging words when he was done, however did not receive my underside score sheet back. During the "Preservation" group/division judging, I can't recall any judge crawling under my car (or any of the others for that matter). They appeared to be more interested in the technically correct aspects (originality items) of the cars, picking things that were incorrect. Fortunately I had documented the few that they thought were incorrect on mine. What killed me was the partial repaint (two front fenders to correct damage that occurred before I obtained the car in '85 and rocker panels that had chips well beyond the touchup phase.

From what I understand the "Touring" only in the Preservation class was to encourage "driver" cars to compete, however when they made it mandatorary that Preservation class entrants must have all areas of the car judged (including the underside) to be considered for a Division win, they defeated the purpose.

BTW, I never did get an answer to my question on what would happen if someone was a class winner having opted out of the underside judging. Would their not be a Division winner in this case, or would the second place car that had opted to have the underside judged be considered for Division win.

My personal thoughts would be to add class to Preparation for all models (not just the last 14 year model years), for those who are compulsive cleaners, a Resto-Mod, for those that fall between Restoration (to original specs) and Preservation, and a Preservation Full class.

The Resto-Mod alone would likely enlarge the field two-fold. And the Preparation 914 class would be perfect for several here. And you kn ow who you are...<grin>
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