With everyone's input from the forums, here's what the lineup for 2004 is lookling like:

For the 2.0: Still sourcing one. Once I have it in my hands, i'll be able to determine what overbores from the stock 80mm are possible.

For the 2.2/2.4: factory 84mm, 85mm, 86mm (new size, never before offered by anyone)

For the 2.7/2.8: factory 90mm, 92mm RSR, 93mm (bore size used by porsche for racing, a little thin at the skirt for my tastes, but they did it, so why can't we?)

For the 3.0/3.2: factory 95mm, 98mm (or any bore size between 95 and 98). I'm waiting on some factory cylinders for inspection to determine if anything over 98mm is acceptable. All cylinders will be in the later style, fully finned.

For the 3.6/3.8: factory 100mm, 102mm (available with the RS spec 107mm case register or RSR 109mm case register), 104mm (available on both 107 or 109 registers), and possibly larger with an additional resizing of the case and head spigots, as we're waiting on a 3.8RSR cylinder and furthermore inspection of the heads and case to see what the registers can be safely opened up to.

All Kits will come with later model air deflector tin updates and will be available with factory porsche motorsports or ARP head studs, your choice. Tentative pricing is going to be a flat $2999/cylinders only across the board from a 2.0 to a 3.8RSR set.

If anyone has any questions or would like to see anything else added to the lineup, just drop me a line at charles@LNengineering.com. Thanks for your input guys!

Again, thanks to Brad for helping me put all this together!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

because we don't have access to the aluminum cases the factory used with the first run of 3,0 RSR's ? even they couldn't make the magnesium cases work with 93mm cylinders and ran a batch in aluminum. AFAIK, those have been unobtainium for many years ... (you might find one in an IROC RSR...). (there were reliability issues even with the aluminum cases in the sprint-race service most of them wound up in - but they might work out for street/AX/DE use. or in an SC case ...)

your pricing for cylinders and ARP head studs is the same for the 6's and the 4's ? sounds like the 6-cyl guys are getting a pretty good deal !

so how would this work (laying the groundwork, because it seems to me like there's serious lead time involved ...) - we'd spec pistons - from JE for example - and then you bore and plate the cylinders as appropriate for cylinder wall clearance ? or do we spec cylinders first to nominal dimension and then take that number to JE ?

The six cylinder set of head studs is actually more per stud than our /4 stuff, since they are made from custom age 625 (~270,000psi yield vs. ARP 2000's 220,000 psi vs. stock 150,000 psi).

As far as final bore sizes, to this day, like on our type 4 102s, we spec the bore out at 102.00mm then order the pistons to match. Since I have the cylinders without plating on the shelf, and plate them per a customer's specifications, I can either plated them to a nominal size, i.e. 102.00mm, or, a single cylinder can be provided and I can match the bores to that piston to ensure the proper clearances, as I do with many of my customers cylinders. I'm really flexible :-)

Now that we have decided what cylinders we're going to be offering, it is now the task of sourcing pistons. I don't have enought time in the day to make custom pistons for all these cylinders, so off the shelf or custom through another parts house will be the way we're going to be doing it, at least for the meantime.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

exactly - and there are more of them. yet the pricing is the same.
i ain't complaining - i have a couple of 6-cylinder engines to do in the forseeable (but not immediate) future ...

Is the pricing the same? Do I have a typo on the website somewhere that I missed?

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

from your posting above:

" Tentative pricing is going to be a flat $2999/cylinders only across the board from a 2.0 to a 3.8RSR set. "

[ update ]

okay - i think i see the confusion... you say they'll "be available" with head studs, and then you say you 'flat rate' pricing is $2999 for -the cylinders only- ...

will you be offering competitive pricing on the 'available' head studs ?

Yes, there will be competative pricing offered on the head studs, significantly less than retail, but only when purchased with cylinders.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

IF ..IF the planets align.. Charles and I should have these availble for viewing at Dunkles in LA.

(at least some of them).

Cant wait to see them. They should sell like hot cakes.


B

when is dunkles? do you need to register to show up?

Might be a bit close to the 90mm's but for class rules maybe an 89mm set for the 2.0 and 2.2's. I believe the 90's take those short strokers (just) over 2.5L, 89's are a hair under. People have been lusting over the Mahle 89mm racing sets but they're made from unobtainium. Not sure what pistons are available but they could be crafted in a 9.8:1 or 10.?:1 configuration for single or dual plug.

Others... am I whacky here?

Ok. So a 2.2/2.4 cylinder with 2.7/2.8 registers, underbored to 89mm (OR) straight out 2.7/2.8 at 89. There is a difference, ever so slight. Doing the latter is much, much easier and doesn't require me to stock an all together different cylinder. Pistons are easy :-) Keep throwing options out and later Brad and I will mull through them all and see what we can come up with.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

i'm not -completely- sure what Eric is shooting for, but all the 6-cyl blocks through the 2,7 have the same cylinder spacing. (you -could- machine a 2,0 case for 2,7 if you really wanted to, but it's much more expensive than just starting with the bigger case...)

i'm not sure what the difference is - can you elaborate ?

2,0->2,2 were done with bore, 2,4->2,7(+) used the 70,4mm stroke crank. 2,2 and 2,4 both use 84mm cylinders - only the stroke changed (and compression ratio, and valve timing, and induction... but those don't affect displacement ...)

not sure if that answered your question or if it only gave you specifications you already knew...

Let me try to reprase my question. The 84mm cylinders have their own program, so do the 90mm cylinder. I know the registers are different, and that an early case would indeed be opened up to accept the later. My question is rather I am pretty sure that there are some dimensional differences between the cylinders, i.e. length, where the step on the skirt sits on the case, etc. Would the 89mm be a new program with the heights of an 84 cylinder and registers of a 90mm cylinder (or) could I just modify the program for the 90mm to make the bore 89mm? Did I make myself a little more clear on this?

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

i'm not sure which dimension you're calling 'register'... is it the center-to-center distance between adjacent cylinders ? the distance between head studs ? or the size og the spigot bore in the case ? (or something else?)

'register' is probably the proper technical term for the dimension you're describing, but for some reason i'm having trouble associating it with what it measures. (so i'm not trying to correct you, i'm trying to learn something.)

i have the '69->'71 911 Spec Book with me, but i left Anderson's 911 Performance Handbook and Frere's 911 Story home today (i've been dragging them around for a week researching fan drive ratios...)

i can check specs with Anderson (and other sources) tonight if i know what i'm trying to find ...

I"m still confused as why the 4 cly eng is the same price as the 6?

Bernie

Charles/Brad/Anyone...???

could someone please explain what/how Nickies means/represents/benefits the Porsche engine?

I mean, explain it to a dumb guy like me!

They are beautiful lightweight alum. cylinders that solve the cooling problems accociated with oversized bores and have nicksil linings that wont wear out. I wish I could afford them.

Bernie

Nikasil is a plating process used on 911s cyls so they can be made of light weight aluminum.

For a /4, you lose alot of weight, and get better cooling, with a longer life than the iron stock ones.


M

Crank... if you start with the bigger case as you suggested you'd have a bigger crank and you wouldn't be in the 2.5 class. A 7R case is desirable (for the larger displacement) but an early sand cast 2.0 would be acceptable for these 2.0 through 2.5 engines.

2.0's and 2.2's have a 66mm crank. 89mm pistons with a 66mm crank give you 2464cc (2463.57cc actually) hence you have a 2.5 liter class compliant engine. This is why I suggested 89's

2.4's have a 70.4mm crank (same pistons so they got the .2 liter bump from the crank). The 90mm pistons offered combined with a 66mm crank give you 2519cc. This is a 2.7 liter class compliant engine but would not fair well if inspected in a 2.5 class.

I was thinking that there would be a bunch of vintage racers that may want the 89mm's on the short stroke cranks

Did that clarify it a little?

E.

not for me... i thought Charles was suggesting there is a difference between a 2,2 84mm cylinder and a 2,4 84mm cylinder. i can't think of any but i don't really know - so i asked ...

I was confused by this I guess... so I thought I'd clarify what I was shooting for.

As far as I know the 2.2 and 2.4 84's are identical. Just the crank changed. But... that's as far as I know and that aint much.

Hey... fellow PCA Editor, you're quoted in an article I'm running in my next issue. Want a pdf?

'911 Story' says they had reliability problems (broken cranks, flywheels that wouldn't stay on, rod problems) with that combination, due in part to the short, weaker rods. they do rev like a house afire tho. an alternative is to go the '0,040" over' approach and bore a 2,4 up to 2,5-liter. the big issue with the 2,4 street engines is that the compression was lowered about a point across the board so they were not much more powerful than the 2,2's, although they were much more flexible in traffic (fatter, broader torque curve). 86.5mm cylinders would be 2,5-l almost exactly - and while that's outside the old SCCA '0,040" over' rules - we're not talking about SCCA compliance... i think even if you did 0,040" over (85mm) with a proper 10.3:1 racing piston you wouldn't be giving away -that- much (100 cc) to a true 2,5-liter car... (in fact, you have to go 0,040" over the nominal 84mm bore to get a 'real' 2,4-l -- the factory's idea of 2,4-l in the street engines was a little optimistic ...

So...... Charles,

Like I was saying... maybe some 89mm would be nice

Rich... I take it you don't want a pdf of the article?

PM'd you - yes, of course, i'd like a copy. sorry if i wasn't clear.

Ok, now that we've cleared that one up. I'll make some 89mm cylinders. I'll leave it at that. Or maybe even 89.5, hell let's milk the 2.5 to the last iota (2491ccs). Sounds good to me. Now the price that I have on the website, $1999, that is a promotional price that ends 01/01/04, then it goes to $2999. ARP Head studs can be included for $499. Pistons, as sourced off the shelf from EBS, run $895-1040 depending on ringsets. Any more questions?

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

FWIW, I am a candidate for a 2.5 short stroke (66x89) also...if it could be built to reasonably stay together. My car is run for under 100 hours a year (guesstimate) but I can't afford breakages mid-year or a need for frequent tear-downs.

I'll tell you what, an 89mm cylinder would have nice thick walls. Should last forever :-)

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

...could you have a sale in about five years?

Hopefully volume increases and the cost of plating can go down and I will be able to buy aluminum in 5 ton batches at a larger discount than what I pay at 1 ton now :-)

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance