Do you think a brand new 197 HP Civic Si can beat a 914 with 3.0 6 conversion? My buddy who doesn't have a preference either way says that the civic will win hands down (he has a VW symbol tattooed on his calf too). Even if the 914-6 has 260 - 280 HP. What do you guys think?

My son has 07 SI, I doubt it would out run a 914-6 3.0

Win at what? A drag race? Mountain road? Big Track? Ralley? I hit about 110 on the freeway and they can't go any faster for some wierd reason

Why? When you say beat are you talking staight line, road course, oval? Really I think the 914 would have the Civic on any of those, but why race a Civic?

I'll answer this with caution...

First, what are we talking about 0-60? If so yes, civic will win. A 914-6 is not a zero to sixty car, never will be unless gearbox ect is non stock.

Second, unless it's a pretty exotic 3.0, 260-280 hp is not realistic.

That being said, put them on a road course or auto-x and results will change.

Ferg

I'm looking for either at a paved track, at a stoplight or if you're going 30 mph down the road and one pulls up next to you.

If you're getting 260-280 HP out of that thing, I want to know what you've got in it. Still, you've got about a 1000 pound diet on that civic. I think your buddy full of . My $.02
Mark D.

With an 8000 RPM redline and the close ratio gearbox and the power output, I suspect that the civic could conceivably out accelerate a 914/6 3.0.

I don't know about top end, but a well prepared and well driven 914/6 should be able to out handle it.

I have no times for either vehicle. I would guess that if you compared a 914 equipped with a 911 engine capable of the same 8000 RPM redline, you just may have a match, but that would be a full race motor not a 3.0.

Does it really matter?

I can eat an 89 Civic with 257 HP at the front wheels, 1850 pound car on race rubber.
my Red Neck Racer with old 2.0L can eat that car on a road course and he is a way better driver than me as he was my mentor ond co-driver.

New Civic Si does not stand a chance road race or Autocross.

Could a Civic beat a 914??? Who cares.. that guy is still driving a civic....

The 914 was built to compete with contemporary cars of its time (i.e. Datsun 240z, Fiat x 1/9, etc)

The question should be.. "can a Civic beat a Cayman"... that's much more apples and apples.

Civic vs. Cayman. That's about as non-apples to apples as I can think of.

No. No. No. No.

What will the Civic Si be worth in 2044?

$100... maybe. That would be if it still runs.

exactly.

I beat a new civic in my 98 A4 1.8t Quattro with 18's...

I put down 170awhp... He had more top end, but it was so much in the top end, that his 0-60 time was just pathetic! Then he had too much drag, and the turbo just took over... I'll say it was close, but the a4 was faster, and had way more tq.


now... Compared to a 914 with a 3.0 (lets give you 240hp) 6?

HAHAHAHAHA!

I just drove my v8 914 for the first time in a year. If you had HALF the power of that beast... you could obliterate the hell out of that civic.



Why are you even asking? Tell him to meet you at the local drags.

But which is better...
a Honda 6 or a Honda 4?

I got spanked by my teacher once, but she was hot...........

OK - So you are not getting 260 HP out of a 3.0. I misspoke. Let's say you have the elusive 3.6 which should get you around 300+ HP. Will you beat it then?
It's not that I care so much. I'm considering upgrades and I may have a problem if after I spend lots of dough (I'm guessing upwards of 15K if I can find a good 3.6 which is way above what I'm considering) and make the car more fun to drive that in a "throw down" every car on the road is still gonna beat it. I am not even the racer type. I have no interest in AX. I would have a riot going around the track but don't care to drag race. I have more fun driving around on the street and going for spirited drives on a fall day. I appreciate that the 914 is something special in itself but can't stand smarmy neigh sayers and wish to put them in their place if need be. So here in lies the ethical struggle. We can put 15k into an engine but using conventional comparators (like those would who are not fans of 914s), our cars are still only in the same class as many of the brand new 4 cylinders (GTI, A4 Turbo, Civic Si). Is anyone else willing to admit they have a small problem with this no matter how much of a diehard 914 fan you are (and believe me I am)?

My '88 NA 944 would definitely spank that civic. It only put out 191 and weighed 2200#.

A light (1800#) teener with 100+ should be able to keep up pretty damn well in a straight, shifting at the right time.

I'm missing something here.

So your friend is egging you on about how a new Civic could outrun a 914?

Give us some real world acceleration times for the alleged Civic, and I'd be better prepared to offer a more educated opinion.

So will the new Civic spank all new cars? What other cars would compare with the performance?

I would never consider "drag race starts" with one of MY Porsche transmissions (not even my Turbo). If it's a rolling start or some jaunt while traveling at some speed where you simply drop a gear (or two) and mash the gas, then I know what you are talking about.

My 3.2 914 street car holds it's own against most of the new street cars out there. The track car 3.2 914 sometimes betters all but the most expensive cars out on the track (and it will piss off most of the newer cars' drivers that it does run with).

No matter what you have, there will always be someone who comes along with something a little faster, quicker, or whatever. That's just the way it is. Get used to it and don't let the naysayers get you down. More than likely they are jealous and not really car guys to begin with.

Yous guys are a little funny in the head.

The 911 carrera 3.0 motor made 255 from factory at 4200 rpms.

And those 935 3.0s made 900 on the low side at full boost.

*just to give a fair range for Porsche 3.0l power output.

I don't know where you get your numbers, but the normally aspirated R.O.W. 911 SC 3.0 only produced 204 or so horsepower from the factory. During the same time period (1982-1983) the R.O.W. 3.3 liter Turbo produced 300 horsepower.

The USA 1983 3.0 SC produced 180 horsepower from the factory. The 1982-1983 3.3 Turbo was never officially imported into the USA.


My information is from page 9 of the Technical Specifications Booklet (82, 83 models).



You may have seen the torque spec for USA cars but have your numbers and units wrong,

257Nm @ 4200 RPM = 189 lb*ft @4200 RPM, but USA HP was given as 180 HP @ 5500 RPM.

what was his name?

Sorta funny, I was following a friend in his 2005 Civic Si while driving my 72 1.7. At a light just before a freeway on ramp, he gunned it when the green came. I gunned it to, if you could call it that, and by the time I got to my turn in point for the 90 degree sweeper for the on ramp I realized that he was on the brakes and the front of his car was plowing hard. I actually had to go a little deeper into the corner and square the corner up a little just to get under him. I never lifted and hit the end of the ramp in the lead. My friend was forever telling people how he wipped me off the line.

Usually, the only Honda to beat me and my 1972 1.7 at an AX is a S2000 on sticky tires. I'm pretty slow off the line, sometimes can chirp 2nd, but by the finish it is another story. Driver skillz is a big part of any race
I think having a $15K 914-6 would be WAY cooler than having a new $15K Civic

i had a brand new mustang on my bumper the other day. he was asking for it. on my way to the local off-ramp, cruising in 5th at about ~65, slightly uphill then into a nice sweeper off-ramp with a radius that gets smaller towrds the end.

i downshifted in 4th and hit it. flying into the turn, keeping the foot down. hit a late apex on the exit and shifted in 5th. at that time, i was near redline. flew out of the turn and onto the other freeway.

after that, i went back to ~65 cruising. took the guy a good mile or so to catch up.

they never know what hit 'em ...
Andy

Ahhh...how I wished I had the same story. Now Andy, I understand you have the mighty 3.6 so results may vary. I was on the freeway the other day and I saw a new Mustang GT. His plates read "RUNS11S" Naturally I think, let's see if he really does run 11's or if he is just really proud of his GT. We were doing about 65 and I was in 4th(which is just a fuchin' sweet spot on my car) and I hit it. Problem was.....so did he. All I saw was taillights and dust. He was long gone. Evidently he does run 11's. We settled down and gave a couple of thumbs up but man was that a beat down!

Looking forward to seeing your car in Moab!

You must be looking at Euro numbers. I think my US spec 3.2 is just north of 200 from the factory.

It's a Civic..

US spec 3.0 was 180 (DIN) HP. European wasn't a whole lot more, IIRC.
US spec 3.2 made 207 (DIN) HP. The European one made 217.

A 3.0 in a 914 will likely be making around 200 HP, as you cannot use the nasty restrictive 911SC exhaust which is a power limiter. And the carb conversion is the easiest to set up, so ~200 HP is where you wind up.

In a car that will be less than 2400 lbs, even starting with a late heavy 914.

Gearing is the other question... The 914's 1st gear really hates being abused; it wasn't made for drag-race starts. Easy to spin right off the mainshaft, even with a stock four-banger if you decide to get really stupid. (Don't side-step the clutch at redline!) I'm not sure what the relative gearing is between the 914 and the Si; it could make a difference.

But all other things being equal, it shouldn't be much of a problem. And if it is, smile and remember that he's driving an appliance, and you're driving a smile factory. Or take him to a road with some corners, and show him that 1/4 miles don't mean much in the real world...

--DD

No - he's not egging me on. He just a true car guy at heart and I respect his opinion. He would love a Porsche 911. Some day he will have one but it's not a priority now. He's a great fabricator. He's owned and rebuilt many VWs (like at least 10) from 50s busses and bugs to mid 80s GTIs. He even owned a 914 once he got on a trade and started to redo it but had too many other projects going on at the time. He was going to give it to me but I lived in an apartment at the time and had no place to keep it. He believes Honda makes a good car (he's owned and rebuilt some of them too) but he doesn't have a preference one way or the other.

The Civic is not the focus of what I'm saying. It could be the Mitsubishi evolution or Mazda protege speed. Many people on this board will think they are all crap. My point is that if we put so much money into our cars they should be able to hang with cars of this caliber. From what you said, it seems like you can. That's all.

Hondas suck! My Mazdaspeed 6 will spank a Civic SI, a 914 with a 2270 T4 or a 914-6 with a 3.0. And in the rain the Mazdaspeed will blow away a 914-6 with a 3.6.

I'm not sure.... if the Civic has one of those big friggin tail pipes....

This thread went exactly how I thought it would

A new civic SI will do 0-60 in 6.3 and the quarter in high 14's.

No NA 944 will touch that, and no 3.0 Six will touch that without leaving first gear laying on the ground. 3.2 maybe, and a 3.6 is a whole nuther animal.

Hell My wifes Xterra will dust my 75 911 Carrera to sixty.

But like others have said, that is not the point of our cars.

Ferg

Moreover, its not the point of driving on the street.

I love the old MG slogan "Safety Fast."

How much is a 89 Civic worth? I got $41.60 from the scrap man when I took that very CIVIC that I beat to the recycler.

When my 2.7L was healthy, it put 210-220-hp (wag).
The car weighs 1739 and wears 10 inch rear slicks.
I've never broken a gearbox or CV and haze them tiars often.

You've led a sheltered life Ferg?

My US 911 Carrera is stock CIS and 165hp when new. I bet it's down from that in it's current state.

For a magazine to get a 6.3 0-60 and high 14's out of that civic SI for a test, I'm betting a clutch drop at about 4500 was used, no biggie on a new car that does not belong to them.

I don't know ANYONE who is going to do the same to first gear on a 901 box with their six.

I saw your car at the autox in Portland WCC, and was impressed. Sheltered? Not really, I've driven enough six's (stock, 2.2, 3.0 and 3.2) to know what they are capable of, and not capable of.

I also get the chance to drive many many new cars, and I'm very impressed with how much HP and speed new cars have.

Since the original question was rather vague, I narrowed down my focus of replies to 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

Ferg

Yeah I have seen Nathan drop clutch with my motor at high revs with tires spinning with no broken parts. It was a sight to see as the car jumped off line leaving rubber for good 20 feet. He saves that trick for only special occasions like when I'm beating his times in an AX. LOL! Have to admit I have done same at a few events such as Hoopa Hillclimb and ax with no broken parts yet.

Now back on topic to 914-6 giving a Civic SI a spanking. Pretty sure my 2.4 liter six could take on a Civic SI with no problem based on what I have expereinced on the track in drag racing cars down long straights. Even in 0-60. I can keep up with Lotus Elises and Honda S2000's in drag races down long straights no problem. I can pass stock Lotus Elises, but if they have had a few mods we are about even. Not bad for a 35 year old car and motor with stupid old weber carbs dumping all sorts of gas into the cylinders.

Um, at no time did the 944 series weigh 2200 pounds, unless you found 600 pounds of useless stuff to take out.

What Andy failed to indicate was that it was one of those sissy Califonia Edition Mustangs with a V6 that look just like a GT.

...But really even new stock V8 Mustangs arent all that fast. I blow them off in my Mazdaspeed 6 from a stop with no problem. I even can get off the line quicker than a GT 500 in 1st gear -after that its curtains.

I don't know about new Civic's but my 2000 LX can't cross a 2 lane intersection without me shifting into second, much less a 4 lane intersection. I'm into fifth gear at 50 mph and looking, in vain, for gears 6, 7 & 8.

If you want to beat everything off the line, get a 917/30. :\

914 with 280hp, weighing around...What? 2200lbs?
Civic with 197hp, weighs?? Weighs what? Unless it's gutted it weight MORE.

How can a heavier car with less horsepower do the spanking? Um... Traction? What else?

Well, bottom line is PROOF is in the pudding. I would love to hear the actual results.

Well... There is the whole gearing thing. 914s just aren't geared to drag. Nore are the 901s made for that.

True.... Just going on the generic parameters ya know. Ok, if we're going to get serious, we would obviously need to know the course. And if a drag race, the distance. And..... Never mind. I think we've beat this topic into the ground until we start nailing down the specifics of the race rules.

You're funny. I am still wondering why a Civic. Do people really like these cars? I used to have to work on them, and I thought people only bought them because they were cheap.