Hi fellas,

I have had several interesting conversations with Norm Fisher.

He is a master distributor for Brad Penn oils, as well as a certified lubricant engineer.

He has a background in racing oils and race fuels that is vast.
He is also a Sunoco racing fuel distributor.
Hmmm That raises some more Q&A possibility's.

And he's a hell of a nice guy.

Today we were talking about the new 40 weight oil that is coming out.
And I suggested to him that we could use his oil knowledge SPECIFIC to our air cooled engines here at 914World.

My original fear was that most of what we needed to know about air cooled oils has already been elegantly explained by Len Hoffman on his website.

Norm stated that there was even more to know. In fact much more.
And he would be happy to explain to us if we choose so.

So for you technocrats that have to have all of the answers.
Norm is willing to participate with us on a limited basis.

You guys have notions on how this might work...??????

Let me know what you think.....

Cheers,

Clayton

He spoke at our local PCA club meetings a few weeks back. He is a nice guy.

Trojan,

By the way.... HI..!!!!!!

Do you think that he would serve us by chatting with us online..????

C

I suggest he come on the forum and give us his spiel on todays oils and the benefits of Brad Penn. Then if he opened it up to questions folks could chime in and maybe after a week or two he could chime in with answers? Kind of a oil chat. I know I appreciate anyone who is willing to take the time to explain things when they have expertise in a specific arena.

Alrighty.

That's all fine and dandy for the techies.

But what we really need is a place to conveniently buy the stuff...

Any way he would be willing to let us order by the qt or so through the 914 World store?

There are many places to buy it denver. Do your homework, their distribution wharehouse is located here.

yes clayton. he could answer lots o questions.

Thanks for the input. so far.....

Keep it coming fellas.....

Clayton

Theres a distributor of Brad Penn in Pomona near the Swap meet just check there site .

GROUP BUY!!!

Isn't that why we're here, to learn and save $$$$?

I'm speaking for myself here, but I would be more interested in a short and sweet pasted paragraph than a lengthy dissertation. - edit -LN ENginerring provided lots of good background on his site, and those interested in more knowledge should start there for background. I'm super interested in what Norm has to say, but would also want him to stick to new stuff relevant to TIV.

This begs the questions...what's so special about his 40W oil? Why is it better than 20-50W? My engine likes MOTUL 20-50W synthetic (which has good qualities according to LN E), why should I switch?

Keep rockin Claydog

Start a poll!!!!!

There is a 914world store?

I have a lubrication forum over on my community set aside just for this type of interchange...

The data that charles and I have collected thus far on a universally independant platform has shed a ton of light on more than just the characteristics of oils, but more importantly how those characteristics impact the aircooled engine. No oil representative can offer this information, they have no true data.

But what we really need is a place to conveniently buy the stuff...


The Type 4 Store as well as LN Engineering both stock all grades of the oil and ship it anywhere in the continental . It has cost us thousands of dollars to do the test work to know what works, hell Charles has spent thousands just on independat lab oil analysis and I drove 3,450 miles cross country to get 5 of those samples and changed oil on the side of the road in the middle of the desert to keep the data from being altered by mileage or speed variances.

Remember- The majority of those here would have no clue what the hell Brad Penn was if Charles and I hadn't spilled the beans as to our findings a few months back.

FYI- Len H has done none of this testing, you have him confused with Charles Navarro of LN Engineering.

All we ask for is recognition and support from those that take advantage of our free practical application testing- is that too much to ask?

C'mon geen-yus. Hill petroleum is the major distributor for the western half of the country. They're located in your back yard.

You can also get it at a handful of "race shops" around town.

I posted where to buy it locally a while back. I think it's $3.45 a quart, or something like that. It's also available on line for the same price

http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/produc...?productid=5551

Brad Penn has been discussed on a multitude of other car club sites. And in addition to Jake's infinite wisdom, I think Norm could add something to the conversation. Thanks for taking the time to set it up Clayton.

Funnything,
I just placed a call to Norm today to find out if there are any Brad Penn retailers in the Portland/Vancouver area.

Also had a valve adjustment today and the mechanic shows me Lubro Moly. Kinda pricey but has all the additives.

Voll-Synthese is the fully synthetic anti-friction oil for modern high tech engines. Perfectly suited for long oil change intervals, this formula also lowers oil and fuel consumption (ref. API-Sequence VI). Superior lubrication even in extreme conditions due to it's broad spectrum viscosity. Immediate lubrication after cold starting and delivering ideal oil pressure at all engine speeds. Tested safe for turbos, superchargers, and catalytic converters. Made in Germany.

Exceeds the performance requirements of domestic and imported car manufacturers. Approved by VW-Norm 502.00 and 505.00 (1/97), Mercedes-Benz 229.1, BMW Longlife-98, Porsche. Fully synthetic and has all the additives. ACEA A3-98, B3-98. Surpasses API-SJ, CF; API-SH, EC, CF.

I would love to hear what Norm has to say! I don't know enough about what actually goes on at the cam/lifter interface to do much more than listen, but more information is not a bad thing IMHO. I personally don't see this as taking anything away from Jake's and Charles' testing and results, but if Norm has more info to add I am interested.

--DD

Clayton, let's set up a 914World chat with him. You guys pick the date and the time and I'll make sure the tech is ready to go.

As far as purchasing, I buy from Jake to show my appreciation for the testing he and Charles have done. They deserve it.

More info is always better, (as long as it is accurate) but in our experience distributors and individuals that "sell" oil are not that well versed with our particular challenges.

Most of what we have learned doesn't follow what we were "told" would occur. Not many people have seen bearings from an engine that ran a particular oil at 400F for a solid weekend (honestly it was so hot we have no idea how hot it was since the temp gauge that ranged to 300F was pegged on the first lap of an 18 lap race!)

I'm getting pretty freaking tired of helping people honestly.

There are many questions that I would like to have answered that aren't necessarily TYPE IV specific as well.

Since Norm has a racing fuel back round as well as pump gas. I would like to hear what he says about octane ratings for our regular cars. And in his opinion is premium really worth the cost.

What race fuels should we build our engines around... And why????

I would also like to hear more about the lineage of this oil and how it came to pass. The Brad Penn history is very interesting. Theres more to it than what is told on their web site.

How did Norm get into this business and why did he choose into the Brad Penn oil when he could choose any other oil company in existence to rep for.

There are also a bunch of fun story's to share about racing in the 70s and 80s with the original Kendall oil that would be fun as hell to share. I have a couple myself.

If Jake and/or Charles want to join in... the more the merrier IMHO.
And I believe it will even better serve our purpose.

Also someone asked me about the 40 weight oil in this thread. Thats for several ricer turbo engines I am playing with at Pro Street.

Lets see what else you guys come up with..........

And for you Jake. The following.


NONE of us would have likely learned any of this if it wasn't for Jake and Charles.

Like McMark, I also ascribe to purchasing goods from the men that got us here in the first place if it makes any kind of sense. And sometimes when it doesn't.

I also agree with Jake that no one else has as much pertinent data on this oil in a type IV engine other than Jake.

No doubt about it.

And my humble apologys to Charles for mixing up Charles and Len's name again...... (2nd time too)

Clayton

One person does.
Charles.
He understands what all the grades and etc have to offer- All I know is what the dirty work has taught me and what I have felt, smelled and saw during comparing the oils. Some oils Charles has sent me in no name bottles to be ran, never telling me what they were just to see what we noticed. Some of the results would literally blow your mind, like 10HP gains, harmonics eliminated and even a different color found on spark plugs after a dyno run....

And Dave Hunt wondered why his spark plugs came out of his engine yellow-

I am seriously tired of the oil topic-

And guess what, no one oil offers all the benefits, but all we are interested in for you guys is wear, we have learned that Brad penn isn't the HP oil and in fact it has lost every HP and TQ comparison to date on 3 different engines.



Thats OK, thanks for the invite but I'll be in stealth mode on this one. Ears open, mouth shut.

Thats OK, thanks for the invite but I'll be in stealth mode on this one. Ears open, mouth shut.
[/quote]


Well That would be a switch.

When I bought my case of the stuff You were not selling it yet. I wanted it then so I got it then.

I would be interested in the HP / torque oil once my break in is done and it is time to race. You can PM me rather than spew it here.

These are two things that are not in common with what we want. The Brad Penn, as Jake and I have already figured out, does not improve fuel economy or make more HP. It just protects engine parts. It has the most tenacious film strength of any oil we have ever looked at, with a HTHS vis @ 150C of 6.81 cSt, which the next highest oil is Amsoil Harley V-Twin, with a 6.1 cSt and Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 at 5.8 cSt. For comparison, Mobil 1 0w40 is 3.6 cSt. Diesel oils are usually in the low to high 4s.

The straight weight Brad Penn oils are more suited to actual race use - the majority of us should stick to multi-grades. Brad Penn is coming out with a 10w40 Racing as well as a line of motorcycle oils too, in speaking to the president of Amref. The motorcycle oils might be friction modified, who knows. We'll be sure to get some on the dyno again.

Also, high levels of Zn and P are not possible for long oil change intervals unless TONS of detergents are used. There are plenty of SAE Journals documenting that too agressive of detergency prevents and can even remove anti-wear films. Long life / long drain interval oils use other anti-wear additives, like boron and other ashless products, which don't work as well as Zn and P. I won't get into the specifics (it's on my site), but this allows them to use less detergents than say diesel oils, and have very long intervals, like 15,000-20,000 with Porsche's spec and heaven forbid, a 20,000-30,000 mi interval with BMW. I don't buy long drain intervals either. I change my oil every six months, maybe even sooner on my new cars - I take the 10,000 mi severe-drain interval and cut it in half.

But for now, Brad Penn is what I recommend for 90% of the guys, followed by Swepco 306 15w40 for winter service for those with sub 32F cold starts.

CN, 'scuse the newbie question, just a little clarification requested: yesterday i bought Castrol high mileage oil and a Mobil 1 oil filter as you recommended in another post. in the same post you recommended not to use any weight less than 15 (-something, was it 15-40?) I guess it won't make much if any difference, but the only grades of the high mileage oil available were 5-30, 10-30,10-40 and 20-50. i bought the 20-50. am i on the correct track for a 99% street car?

I think my brain works like Jakes When he explains something I get it. What I understand from the oil discussions is........You either chose your oil based on the data and real world observations of a top engine builder or you chose based on sales rep spiel, marketing hype, personal opinion, or legend.

Jake I think the saying that is appropriate for most of what you share is: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Thanks for your contributions to the TypeIV and aircooled community.

Oh, and I agree with DD that more info is better than less. Just use good judgment when evaluating the info.

Jim

Yup, those oil salesmen can be pretty slippery fellow's


I would like to hear what he has to say.

Anyone else want to throw in their 2 cents worth....????

Personally, I am leaning towards the McMark scenario.

Clayton

Charles, what are the Zn and P ppm for Brad Penn? It is mysteriously missing from your big oil spreadsheet and I'd like to see how much difference we are really talking about here.

Thanks and sorry for the hijack.

It is 1200ppm Zn and P.

The reason I removed it was that the test was wrong, just like Swepco, Redline, and a few others, which I pulled at the manufacturer's request.

And before anyone says something, the Zn and P levels are sufficiently high, at least for Brad Penn's formulations. They use a very different detergent package - lower levels of three detergents, rather than the typical higher levels of a single Ca detergent.

The detergents are less aggressive, so the anti-wear film forms easier AND is more persistent, coupled with a very unique base stock - hence the very high HTHS viscosity.

That would work best.

I can probably obtain a copy of the package he distributed at the meeting. I think it was 24 pages of info. I'll see if i can get it downloaded.

Thanks Trojan... You Da Man.....

Clayton

Hello All,

Norm Fisher here with Hill Petroleum in Arvada, Colorado. First off, sorry for the delayed response; all of the terrific Penn Grade 1 Racing Oil users and sub-distributors have kept me out of town on a rather constant basis. As Clayton mentioned, we are the master distributor for all Brad Penn products from Colorado to all parts west. We carry their full line of finished lubricants, not just the Penn Grade 1 Racing Oil. Having been a Kendall GT-1 Racing Oil Distributor for many years afforded us this opportunity to distribute "The Green Oil".

Exactly where to purchase the oil appears to be of greater interest to the members of this forum than the validity or history behind it. This is music to our ears, as we can all now focus on setting up new sub-distributors as quickly as possible. Please know however, if anyone has any technical questions or inquiries about the refinery's 126 year history, I would be more than happy to address those topics.

Approximately 60 sub-distributors have been set-up in the western half of the country. We anticipate doubling this amount by the summer of 2008. Hill Petroleum and Brad Penn will be listing all of these companies on both websites within the next month or so. In the meantime, please feel free to contact myself or Scheryl Murrain here at Hill Petroleum by calling 800-323-8963, for the nearest distributor to you.

Thank you for welcoming me to your forum, and for all of your kind words. By the way, the SAE 40 Wt. Penn Grade 1 Racing Oil is in full production, and we will have inventory here by the week of January 14th.

Happy New Year to all!

Norm Fisher, CLS
Sales Manager
Hill Petroleum
www.hillpet.com
800-323-8963

And Happy New Year.

Oh, and the obligatory:



Consider yourself welcomed.

Hi Norm,

welcome to the madness

Norm,

Glad you are on board and up and running.

YellowDog

Hi Norm, welcome!

Norm was very helpful when I was looking to set up distribution for the best oil out there.

The problem in the past was all the internet resellers selling at basically $.50 over cost (that's if you bought a pallet). It seemed as though that was driving him crazy as well. Hopefully there's a MAP policy in place to protect the sub-distributors.

A chat would be welcome, until then, just buy the stuff. It's the best oil for our little cars.

I will call Norm next week to see if we can set up a chat.

I also agree with the guys that made the point of the following.

Jake Raby and Charles Navarro have spent a lot of Time, Money $$$, and resources to freely give us empirical data of what works in our engines.
When dam near no one else was forthcoming with the how's and why our cams were going flat and what oil's will keep our air cooled engines alive for a Long, Long time.
On THEIR own dime. These two men showed up HUGE.

So first off..... KUDOS and THANKS to you guys.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the way I see it. Period.

Now about Norm.
Hopefully we can learn a bit more about oil AND the history of oil in the past 20 or so years from Norm's years in racing and the oil biz.

Norm.... You B getting a phone call next week.

Clayton

Welcome Norm,

I agree with Clayton, Jake and Charles have done alot to help us with our engines and i think we should take all of the experts opinions and listen!

I know myself im looking forward to hear more about this

I use Diesel Oil and carry a Commercial Drivers' License .... so there

That Diesel oil isn't what it was before April 07...