I was hoping to get some opinions on the Engman inner long kit. We know its designed to stiffen up the center section but how does the car feel after the install. Can you feel a difference in the chassis? Sometimes I think its hard to measure a difference or judge performance because theres a built in bias when you buy and install something like this..

I am having mine welded in in two weeks. I'll let you know.

On another thread here that I read a while back someone mentioned that the passenger in their car noticed the change right away without knowing anything had been done.

I should add, via edit, that I have one in the box waiting to be installed on my 3.2 project.

I noticed a big change after I installed mine. less cowl shake, car feels more solid over bumps and you can feel it as you steer.

I really wish I had installed the kit when I had the interior out for floor pan repairs. Would be a huge PITA to do now.

The reason I asked the question is I just Put my own version of one in and the car felt different. I wondered if it was just my expectations, bias or ?/. The body feels stiffer, much stiffer. I am running a V8 and with the extra weight & different C/G my impressions are its a big improvement.

rjames,
I know what you mean, I had 1/2 gallon of Por-15, full layer of Dynamat and custom carpet installed (all Wall to Wall ). I put off thinking about it for a year but just decided one day its needed to be done. I modified a cheep small orbital type palm sander by attaching a rigid paint scraper blade to it. That really worked great removing the dynamat and factory undercoat. I did use a stiff wire wheel once the bulk of the material was removed. I'm glad I did it.

Is this the kit you're talking about? (not my photo)

Did some research and found this installation thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...t=14508&st=

I will definitely be installing one of these kits!
But, will also install the Mayeur outer kit....as I am not racing and I was once told..."if it's worth doing...It's worth overdoing".

Now, to shore up those consoles...

Yes,
That's the one !

I have installed them on two of the cars I have done with V8's and we did Joe Buckle's cars too and Jared's V8 car. It made a huge difference. I guess the biggest noticeable change was in Joe's V8 car. Before the kit, with the car up on the jack, you could not open and close the doors. Once the kit was in, they opened and closed perfectly. It was amazing. I firmly believe in these kits. I too install the outer kit from Tangerine racing just because I felt it needed it. I have not driven this car with all the kits installed yet, it is still about a year off from completion. But it is in and it is not coming out.

Question:
What's the best way to keep the door gaps even while inside the car welding up the kit? I'd hate to have someone weld in the kit while the body is flexing etc.

FYI I have yet to purchase or install one of these but am very intrigued and will probably do so in the future.

skline,
I finished my inner kit yesterday and could feel the difference right away. The car feels different, more direct when just doing normal turns etc. I am surprised, sure hope its not the crack I smoked before leaving the garage

The Engman kit works well, but I prefer the Brad Mayeur kit. Its the only one that attaches the front of the car all the way back to the rear suspension mount, huge improvement.
Just my two cents

Mark

The best thing is to get somebody (like Blood red 914-6qt) take measurements before and after.

Put the rear of the car on jack stands that are on the two sides. Then lift the front from one wheel. Measure the height of the front bumper on both ends. There should be a difference due to the twist of the chassis (that's why you want the rear on jack stands, not just sitting on the wheels.

Then have the engman stiffing added and do the same thing again.

That will tell you how much you have really stiffened the chassis.

Wes

Nathan,

I've asked this same question on a couple of occasions (and on a couple of forums) before. I have a rust free car with perfect door gaps; doors close great whether the car is on jack stands or not. I very much want to install the kit, but it seems there's no method for predicting door gap changes until after you're done. People recommend to measure everything before hand, use door brackets/braces, etc, but when all is said-and-done if it changes you're pretty much stuck with the result.

Skline, can you (or anyone else that's done this install) give us some idea of your experiences in this regard? Being the engineering type , I'd like to know how it's all dealt with before committing.

Thanks,

Andys

Mark,

I know of a couple of people that have done both and at least one person that will be doing both. Being as my car is a street car and the little bit of extra weight will not be noticed, I am considering doing either Brad's kit or a set of clamshells as well. I'd be very curious to see what impressions are of folks that have both the Engman kit and Brad's kit or a set of clamshells.

Why would your door gaps change if you are careful to keep them set using a brace and then weld slowly enough not to really put heat into the metal. I think the only cars that warp are those whose owners just pull out the welder and do it all in a short time. If you let it cool between every few sections of welds you shouldn't have a problem, right?

I did mine with the car flat on four wheels. Why would you need to jack it up? let the car sit naturally and weld away. If you are correcting gaps than go at it in a way as to force the body back to where you would like it, maybe alittle over, and than predict where it will sit back to.
The kits both work very well. I did it to my 3.2 and a 2.0L.

Jim,

It is my understanding from those that have purportedly installed the Engman kit, that door gap changes are/can be an issue. Since I don't know and have no first hand experience, I thought I'd ask those that have installed it.

Though I understand your logic, anything welded (that re-melts and solidifies) is prone to change/shrinkage/warping. As with anything, it's a matter of degree. I agree that carefully managing the heat input and sequencing is a really good idea. If I do the install I will use a TIG welder, as I don't own a MIG. TIG welding at all those odd and difficult angles is something I'm not looking forward to.....My back hurts just thinking about it

Andys

Andy,

I do realize that all molten metals will slightly change "shape." My thought was exactly as you said; by doing it slowly and allowing adequate cooling I would think that one could almost eliminate this warpage.When welding new longs and inner stiffening (just like the kit) onto my brothers car we were able to maintain good door gaps simply by being very very careful with the heat.

BTW, if you want I'll trade you my MIG for your TIG

Jim

On the subject of door gaps etc, I did experience some movement and was not happy but I did put a lot of steel in the corners against the firewall. My plain is to ether build a solid top or a connecting structure under the targa top so I can address any alignment issues then. Now I am mapping out how to build up the windshield frame so it can handle some of the load.
I am so sold on this I also will be doing a version of the outer long kit.
My engine and transmission package is different than the vast majority of 914s and in my case this mod has made the car totally different in a positive way..

Completely worth it. I couldn't believe how much it changed the car. Matter of fact, you'll notice your "new" weak spots on the car after the install. More stiffener kits please...

The kit worked great in my car. My car was stripped when I did it with minimal weight and supported on the "donuts" with equal length blocks.

In my opinion, the key is to get the new pieces to sit perfectly flat against the original metal before any welding is done. I mean NO GAPS. The more gaps, the more opportunity to shrink and move. This takes some effort since the kit fits almost too good.

I used large C clamps and 2X4's jammed across the inside of the car to hold everything tight. When welding, don't weld the entire length on the edges which is what I believe to be the biggest error made. This just invites shrinkage and more is not better here. Just weld the holes and tack weld the edges. MIG works fast and easily. Start tacking from the center and work your way to the edges until it is held firmly to the body all the way across. Then, move around as you weld avoiding a lot of welding in one area. For instance, move to the other side for awhile. When finished, my doors fit perfect.

I did the above based on total fear of what happened on Marv's 3.6 thread who said......"pic 3 doors installed, major bummer here door gaps are shiite. the car seems to have moved while installing engman inner long kit. both doors will have to reworked and repainted to get gaps right"

That would have made me cry.....

I installed mine like Paul using a big c clamp to make sure they were tight against
the longs before welding. I also ground a drill flat to clean off the paint through every hole for a good weld. When I got done welding the holes on the longs I took a screwdriver and pride up to check if it was solid and some areas pop up. I made sure when I started welding a hole the wire was in the center of the hole but instead of it welding onto the long it just pretty much just filled the holes. So to make sure it was welded on solid I drilled some more holes with a spot weld cutter. The spot weld cutter left a 5/16ths hole instead of the 1/4 hole which welded more solid to the longs. I drilled the holes to 5/16ths in the back piece before I welded that and had no problems

I second what folks are saying about the tight fit. NO gaps, mine went in like butter after cleaning and preping everything. I also stripped, cleaned, installed, painted in one 12 hour shift. Next day I put the interior back in and drove it. So it's an intense project, but should'nt take more than a couple days done right if you know how to weld.

I've never had a shrinking problem with just filling the holes. One kit that I know shrank the door gaps, and that person seam welded the edges the full length. I firmly DON'T believe that a full seam at the edge is necessary. A few more tack welds are fine.


I started doing this on my second kit install. It works great.


filling holes can end up not attaching to the base metal. You need to be very careful that you're not just welding the holes shut.

Like Paul mentioned, the strength of the kit comes from the long and the new metal being in complete contact. The closer you can get them, the better. I typically remove/install the side pieces 20 or so times cutting a little here, and grinding a little there. No two cars are the same, and you shouldn't be afraid to modify the pieces to work in your car. Especially the bottom edge. If that is too long it won't allow the top section to lie flat. IMHO, there should be a 1/4" gap along the bottom edge to make sure you top is not raised.

How much do they weigh?

Its sounds light but I think 20 lbs ? Does that sound right?
I made my own and added a lot more steel.

18lbs and I give a 3rd not to weld a full seam around the perimeter. I did and have some door gap issues to deal with. Was it worth it? Hell yea!

McMark is on target with his comments.

I would also like to thank him for input he gave me after installing a kit 2 years ago. His comments were implemented into the parts (shrink sides to allow better welding and adding the seat belt mount hole for the 70 model on the passenger side - its different than the later models). I always listen to try to improve anything I make and his comments have made the kit better.

As to the weight - the kit is actaully 16.5 lbs - shipping weight is 18lbs.

Thanks

M

So it's switch your voltage to max on the MIG and make sure the two pieces are melted together. The spot-weld will be virtually flat it you get it right requiring no grinding. if's it blobby and raised it's prob not fuzing properly.
Has anyone tried self tappers to hold the pieces together? Some one showed me this trick and it works very well -just mig the holes up after.

Yes they make an immediate improvement for the stiffness of the car.

I like the inner reinforcement as opposed to the outer rocker reinforcement (I think it helps more).

I do weld the perimeter fully after I have the rosette holes all welded up. I haven't had a door gap issue with installing these inner reinforcements. If you go slowly and don't try welding the whole seam as one pass, you shouldn't have the warpage.

I weld the perimeter to:

A. Keep moisture out
B. It looks better

P.S. My latest version penetrates the lower firewall and extends up the long all the way to the inner suspension console.