hey everyone, i figured id post this here to see what you all thought

I am a ME student at NJIT and for a senior design project, Myself and 2 other students will be redesigning the front suspension of the 914. the goal of the project will be to optimize the structural rigidity of the control arm while decreasing weight, also to try and optimize the camber curves and adjustability for racing use.

prettymuch we would be designing a racing control arm. depending on the results, this may be something that could go into a production run..who knows

what im asking is for donations of stock parts. A arms, shocks, tie rods...

i want to try and recreate a front corner of the car that will be easy to modulate and work on for demonstration and testing purposes.

so let me know your thoughts/ideas

thanks
Aaron

Very cool Aaron!

Are you trying to optimize the current design and keep the stock mounting points, or are you planning on tailoring the mounts to a more optimally designed solution?

Sorry that I don't have any parts to donate.

James

Design an affordable front-coil-over system

if the jersey boys don't cough one up, Ive got a four front end just sitting here..

Great Project! Are you going to do any testing??Baseline/improved?? Or are you going to design an adjustable suspension and let us develop it. I'm in the process of modifying my own, so, sorry no parts to donate.

We expect full progress reports

its going to keep the stock chassis mounting points, but most likely the outer ball joint will be moved for optimization, the reason to keep the stock mounting points is so that it can be a bolt on modification. and im hoping to make it work easitly with both torsion bars and coil overs

call me (work #):
(973) 435-3792

Let me give you a hint. Extend the lower control arm by 2". Then adjust the spindle angle back to the original. You should now be building camber in your arc.

I read this on a bathroom wall once....

Sounds good but why not the take a bigger challenge like the rear control arms?

felix...good question...i thought about it and this is why

my group's original idea was to do part of the design for the Formula SAE car we are building, that would create less work for us so we could focus more time on building and getting the car right. unfortunately, since we have the whole FSAE car designed, we didnt get approved for it. so i went with something i knew pretty well and am comfortable working on...if this goes well..maybe i can do somehting for the rear after i graduate...

How about a double A arm coil over set up on all four corners.

I will dontate my stock front suspension when I pick up a set of 911 struts. I already have the cross member and A arms just need the struts.

thought about that too. BUT it wouldnt be a bolt on application, and would also be a bit too much work for next semester

so i have a quick need, i need pictures of the front suspension. assembled, unassembled, anything you have...ive done searches like crazy but cant find anything

thanks

935 suspension. Fully adjustable at all points. Much lighter than 911 parts. Came with a coilover strut, too.

The failure point was the adjustability, a lot of highly modified group 5 cars that were 935 based were failures because of poor suspension geometry after fiddling with the front end too much.

And the original 935 aluminum cross brace was WAY too weak. Everyone replaced it with the 911 steel part, except for exceptionally short races. The part would warp after one or two track days, and would be worthless.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. The 935 suspension is interchangeable with the 911 suspension. I was making this point to say that the end all has been done.


I have a good idea for axles, if you guys want to change up... Composite structure.

Here ya go. I also have a complete front end if you can't find one locally.Let me know.

Disassembled

Here's a bitchin' design project: A "bumpsteer-less" rack. It would have to be able to maintain a pivot point in line with the pivot of the a-arm(s). This could easily be done with hydraulics, but that's daftly inefficient because it necessitates a power steering or similar hydraulic system, and there isn't a mechanical safeguard in the event of failure.

thanks for the thoughts, but at the moment we have already gone through the approval process. this will also be a lower cost alternative to a 935 suspension

thanks for the pictures

I don't know why we ever had the standard crap 911 suspension. The 935 is naturally cheaper to produce. The heim ends are all prefab. Just make the mounts and go.

The steering system could be considered suspension. As well as wheels and tires.

Note that the cross beam on this model (this isn't a real 935 suspender. It's an expensive knock-off) is billet aluminum. That really isn't necessary. The stock steel cross works better for strength, and our cars are already biased to the rear, so it doesn't really give a weight advantage unless you can remove equivalent weight from the rear end.

I've been drawing something up that will use motorcycle tires instead of car tires, and with a really aggressive caster angle to make use of the round rubber. End-all, be all would be two hydraulic cylinders to make the car carve like a skier at high speeds and would make the car turn normally at low speeds. And some mixture of both at points in between. Motorcycle brake disks are lighter, as with their calipers. And they would be more than enough to stop cars of our size. Plus very modern sports car options have been available to the masses in the motorcycle world. I.E. carbon brake disks. Motorcycle wheels are much lighter, too.

Aaron - Not sure if you already have the factory diagrams for the suspension but just in case you don't, see the link for the parts catalog:

https://techinfo.porsche.com/techinfo/pdf/e...914_KATALOG.pdf


-pt

I'm glad your post count is so high. otherwise I'd think you were scamming for a free front end

hmm, lets see....i have a senior design project to test modifications to the idle circuits of the weber 40 idf to reduce pumping losses....so, send me a set of weber 40s..

I'll be your best friend for like, ever

no?

lol...if i had a crappy old set i would...

yeah..dont worry its not a scam..all of my research and development information will be free to all of the members of the board. i wont own any of the ideas anyways because im doing the work under my school so even if i tried to sell them after...i could get in lots of trouble

development on this wont start until next semester, im just writing my proposal this semester in our design 1 class, we do the real work in design 2

Dude. You won't own any of the ideas because none of it is patentable or copy writable material.

There's no novelty to it.

Check out these if you don't think so.
http://www.cracked.com/article_15693_10-mo...r-patented.html

Novelty means that it's a new idea, or its an old idea applied to new subject matter. This is neither.

It's the primary requirement for patenting anything. And the hardest part is when some jackhole decides that he want to compete with you and digs up any sort of prior knowledge to nullify your patent. I.E. Bosch 4 prong sparklers are patented internationally. There patent is immediately voided as soon as someone mentions that british airplanes during WWII had almost identical sparklers.

EDIT: (incomplete statement.) Picture of a 935 suspension component is an example of prior knowledge and voids the argument that this is a novel idea.


Signed Chris Logan- patent holder at 18.

i know about patents, i applied for one in highschool, what im saying is that because i am in school the work i am doing is not mine, thats all.

the reason a 935 suspension is not really relevant to my project is because it does not allow for both torsion bars and coilovers..and that is one of the goals of this project, to create a part that will allow for both.

i dont know the details of things yet because i have just started, but this will unwind in the following months and everyone will be following the progress...

oh..and i never mentioned the word patent...so relax

That was aimed at um.. Tim.


But... even though the school may be able to own the plans and your work done on this project, it cannot retain any rights to it unless the idea has any sort of uniqueness to it. Otherwise, it's just a part.

For amusement purposes only. Not meant for serious discussion.

I remember that clause when I did my senior project about intellectual property belongs to the school. My team programmed an OBD-II scanner into a linux PC. It worked really well and was all object oriented java. All we needed was the cable, which was like 90 bux, which the school supplied. it was pretty cool, but getting real-time telemetry from the system over the CAN bus wouldnt work because every mfgr has their specific codes for the CAN main computer to ping it with to have it start sending data. that binder of codes was on the order of 400 bux. if we got them we would have had a fully functional OBD-II CAN bus scanner software system complete with virtual dashboard and everything...

anyway, senior projects are cool, best of luck to you

Interesting. Our senior projects are all company sponsored and all developments are intellectual property of the company. At least in ME there aren't any "school sponsored" projects. The sponsors are companies like Sikorsky, P&W, Electric Boat, Westinghouse, Wiremold etc and they have students design things that they would ordinarily contract out to other out-of-house engineering firms. Its really great because a lot of people get hired before they graduate by their senior design company sponsor

thats pretty funny...Aaron running a scam.
One of the nicer guys I've met thru this board...except for maybe nychef

I hope you followed thru with Bob over at Stable Energies. Those 914s he has stashed over there need to be utilized for something, before they disintegrate.

hey i like to think im nicer than richie lol

I called bob last week but got no answer, ill follow up this coming week...its definetly something im looking to do

a little update for you all

thanks to ray, i was able to get measurements of the 914 suspension points for the kinematic model, and thanks to bob at stable energies, i have the components to model. Our professor really likes this project so he chose us to compete in an ASME oral presentation contest in april...so i have ALOT of work to do.

I am currently finishing the solid model of the stock control arm, which i will do a structural analysis of, using track data generously provided by the members here.

so things should be picking up soon

here are a few pics of the solid models i have

Aaron,

If you get into the rear suspension, I've got Solidworks models of the hubs:

I've got a stock 914-4 front end you can have for free. I'm located next to Atlantic City. PM me if you want it.

[quote name='i love porsche' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:47 PM' post='972260']
hey i like to think im nicer than richie lol

picking on me again? don't you still owe me money? i should figure out the interest Hmmm $8 @ 3% per week for 50 or 60 weeks. looks like your gonna have to fix my hellhole for free. thats right i.m back from the dead

Richie! Yo brotha I am still too freaking busy to come visit

Hijack over...

a little update here, ive been working all week like crazy creating a presentation for the ASME oral presentation competition tomorrow in CT. im still trying to finish it now. Ive got the new control arm prettymuch designed and have done some FEA on it, but i wont post pictures until i know its good....for now though, heres my assembly of the front end, enjoy

That looks good Aaron. It'll be interesting to see your new control arms.

Where in CT are the presentations?

Edit: Deleted duplicate resulting from trigger happy finger.

the competition is at central connnecticut state university. 18 competitiors i think, it should be interesting. im planning on building a set of the new arms too, it will be nice to have a set for my car and see how they do

Cool. I wish I hadn't had to work, CCSU isn't too far away from where I live.


How did it go Aaron?

the presentation went well i think, i didnt win anything, but ALOT of students and people were coming up to me after, complimenting me and wanting to talk about it....i guess that porsches are more interesting than carbon nanotubes or 6 DOF Matlab M files (those guys won)

anyways, its looking good, and im hoping to build some prototypes soon
heres a pic of the basic design

so i have a little request, i would like to get donated/cheaply purchase two control arms, i really just need the torsion bar tube with bearing races..that section, i will be constructing the rest with 4130 tubing....

anyone out there have some control arms? let me know how much with shipping to 07110

thanks
Aaron

Control arms? You mean fron A-Arms?

The rear are coil-overs. No torsion bars. Not like a 911/944.

yes, front A arms

ok well here are some pictures of the finished product with some build pictures

a few notes

the rod end chosen i do not believe will be strong enough..not the shank, but the ball to race connection, i believe the ball might pop out, so if anyone has any good sources for racing rod ends, id appreciate some advice

the control arm was built on a jig, not the best one, but good enought to duplicate.

these reuse the stock torsion tubes fromt the stock control arms, if we were to make new ones, the cost would have gone way up

this was also my first time welding round tube...so its not the greatest welds, but they should hold up. i tried to get a better welder to do the welding for me, but we couldnt make it happen in the time constraints.

the ball joint pin was made from a grade 5 bolt. for actual use i would want to upgrade the bolt

and it does fit togethher with the stock parts, for our final presentation we had a jig which held all of the suspension pieces together

so..comments and questions?


i have MANY other pictures of the whole process, so if there is anything you would like to see specifically, just let me know

this was probably the best weld of the bunch

Click to view attachment

also, id like to thank Bob Kikascik of Stable energies for donating parts to this project

Welding is only learned by practicing...alot! You can read all the theory books on the planet but without practice you'll never weld. Keep at it, your on the right path.

Did the torsion tubes warp at all when welding the new tubes on? All that welding on one side I could see creating an issue.

If you want to pick someone's brain regarding racing rod ends, call Frank Nester at High Performance Vehicle Engineering (610-515-0550, they are in Easton, PA). Tell him Chris Phelan from Ocean Power Technologies sent you (warning, he likes to talk but he knows a lot of stuff). He does a lot of race car work but also made some massive rod ends for us (made the housings and swaged the 2" ID spherical bearings in) along with making some killer clevises out of 17-4. He could definitely give you some advice. I'm sure you've found that spehreical bearings generally aren't made to take axial loads, their strength is in the radial direction. You might consider something like this:

http://www.magnaloy.com/Chris/WebStore/Pro...nt.RodEnd.M.asp

Don't ask them to give you any sort of estimate for life though, they have never done the work because they are made for slow moving hyd cylinders. They are pretty badass though.

Good luck with the project

-Chris