Electric "hybrid" Porsche
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Tesla's comparison to their new roadster, Porschius. Not sure what the aircraft above it represents...
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Wow that is awesome. To bad the prius does not look like the lower pic. I have been researching electric cars for years. I would buy a tesla if I hit the lotto I have looked at converting the 914 to electric and would do it if the cost was not so crazy (Lithium Ion Phosphate battery pack at 26K is a little crazy)

Who knows 10 years from now we might all be talking about the best electric motor to swap in.

I'm curious what is going to happen with the hybrids when their electric motor & batteries start to give out. It seems like with a hybrid, you are going to have high maintenance costs because there is this whole other subsystem within your car. When people can't afford to repait the electric motor and such, will they just keep driving it, on the gas engine? Or will they just "trade it in" earlier?

The best way to conserve on energy, it seems to me, is to keep your existing car running in top shape. People don't realize that with every car that is produced, a lot of energy was consumed from harvesting the raw materials to putting the finishing coats of paint on.

The batteries will need replaced, but (and I don't know exactly what type of electric motor is used in the Prius) a good electric motor designed for commuter use should only require minor adjustment and or replacement of the contact brushes, and we are talking years between when this maintenance is needed.

Hell if people would just put air in thier tires we would save a shit load of energy every day.

I have nearly become OCD about it with my cars and now my friends cars.

Why a hybrid? Just go all electric like these two examples.

VoltsPorsche Kit

Students Take Porsche to Electric Avenue

The battery pack is pretty expensive those Nickel Metal Hydrate battery packs in the prius are about 7K new. The motor is brushless inductive AC motor. It should outlast the gas engine. I wonder how much of a 'core' charge the old pack will provide. I think at current Toyota gives a 10 year waranty on the battery though and a used one from the bone yard sells for 700.




That electroauto kit is interesting. However, I believe their 150 mile range estimate is very optomistic. I contacted them about it and they said in northern California with all of the hills that number can be cut in half. I was looking at doing it but there is no way for me to recharge at work and I have about a 100 mile round trip to and from work. When the cost of lithium ion phosphate batteries drops down into the realm of affordability then it will be a very viable alternative. Until then a hybrid with a fairly efficient gas engine to assist and or charge the batteries is a reasonable alternative.

Their kit would also be reasonable for people with shorter commutes. Due to the high cost of housing I think a lot of people in N. California have pretty long drives to work. I think my drive is long but I am only about the median distance from work when compared to my co workers.

I cant wait for all of the efficient diesels that are supposed to be coming in 2008. VW is supposed to release the jetta after the first of the year and the rabbit by mid year. Audi, BMW and even Toyota will have diesel options in 2008 too. Unfortunately, with the Audi I think they only have plans for a diesel in their SUV. An A3 2.0 turbo diesel would be a great commuter. So for me I think I will buy one of the VW offerings this year. When the electric car technologies are more mature I will consider it.

The Jetta's been bumped to late summer ........ The Cap'n

I'm getting ready to retire my Neon and start driving my dad's old car... a 1994 Toyota Camry with under 70,000 miles. I figure that there's a car that's already been manufactured, gets good gas mileage, is reliable and maintainable, and to me, that not only saves me the cost of buying a new car, but saves the environmental impact of building a new car.

I'm going to sound politically incorrect here, but I see no incentive to "go green" unless I see an immediate economic benefit.

Even now it is cheaper to operate a vehicle on gas. Especially with the lack of price flexibility of diesel.

That's what I did - http://volt914.blogspot.com - as well as TimK - http://914ev.blogspot.com - along with a lot of other people - http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/PORS

Most of us use lead-acid batteries, which weigh a lot. I'm hoping in a couple of years when it is time to replace them that there will be a better technology out there.

SH*T! Oh well I guess if I have waited this long a few more months wont hurt.

The plane is the Burt Rutan space plane that won the X-prize last year. Not sure what the context is with the porshius though.


Zach

Warum mit da hybrids?


ECONOMY

"The Audi averaged a far more frugal 31.5mpg, proving that the A8’s light weight and diesel power are a better formula for real-world economy. This means a huge 624-mile range."


"After covering more than 1,000 miles, the LS600h’s average consumption was only 19.4mpg. This is highly disappointing from a car that claims to achieve 30.4mpg."

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/gr...vs_audi_a8.html


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Autobild magazine comparison test of the Lexus LS600h, Mercedes S420 CDI, BMW 745d and Audi A8 4.2 TDI

Test consumption/test CO2

Audi A8 4.2 TDI: 9.5 L/100km - 252 g/km

Lexus LS600h: 12.1 L/100km - 285 g/km

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Themen-Test...lg-_435966.html

The best way to make what we already have more efficient is to streamline cars and give them better aero! Stop driving around a brick with wheels.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that cars aren't the only cause of greenhouse emissions... In fact, they aren't even the largest cause. I think the best way to curb global warming is to start putting solar and wind generators on each new house that is built, as well as updating the old ones. Those electric cars do little good when they're charged up by a coal power plant.
As for the automotive part of it, why does the almighty Prius get all the praise at 40ish miles to the gallon, while diesels in Europe are getting 50-70 MPG? Just a thought.
Of course, that's just the wannabe engineer in me talking. The human side of me says that it's about time for this species to go the way of the dinosaurs anyways, so I'm not too concerned.
Mark D.

We can debate maximum efficiency or best methods, there is a greater need to be less dependent on oil for obvious reasons. There will be more alternatives made available to us but we, the consumer will ultimately decide on the direction.

Everyone should ride motorcycles. Even better, LPG, CNG or Bio Diesel bikes!

I could give a shit about global warming. Don't believe Al Gore anyways. But we do need to come up with something better than petroleum. At least then we can tell the middle east to take a flying leap.

Electric ain't the way to go. Batteries cost too much and are still an evironmental nightmare. Ethanol is a joke. Diesel ain't bad but it ain't the solution.

Firefly Energy recently announced their Oasis line of batteries. Might be easier to convert to a lighter weight battery pack without too much effort in the fairly near future.

Skip

If we could wean people off of gas wasting automatics and big powerful engines, we would save a bunch.

I have a 2005 Toyota Camry with a 156 hp 4 banger and a 5 speed manual. The manual tranny makes it rare and it gives me 30MPG driving to work and 40mpg on trips.

And that's with the largest and tallest Camry body ever made.

Ken

I thought the same thing.
I lived on a boat out on a mooring for 2 years without any electricity unless I made it.
I had 3 2'X4' solar panels (6 later) and the best marine wind generator that I could buy powering 6 golf cart batteries. We used electricity for a fresh water pump, a propane sensor, a charge controller, 2 small fluorescent lights and a small color TV.
Even with 6 solar panels and a week of sunny windy days, I couldn't keep up. By the end of the week my batteries would be down to 25% and I'd have to run the goddamned loud stinky generator.
It takes a lot more to make electricity than we think. Your idea will help a bit, but I was shocked by how much money it cost me to buy all that stuff and how far I was from actually pulling it off.
I dreamed about a refrigerator, but there wasn't enough room on the boat for any more solar panels and the one wind generator didn't do much until it was blowing over 20mph. Electrically, refrigerators are sooo expensive.

Our country is at odds with itself. We don't want to buy oil from the Arabs (at least we say we don't want to be dependent on them), and we prevent drilling in Alaska.

Is it just me, or are these the original "gas burner" wheel design as well?

I am not sure about the rest of the country but in California the gas prices have gone significantly high enough to draw my attention to alternative fuels. So if for no other reason than daily cost I would consider diesel, hybrid, or an electric car.

A plesant side effect of these efficient vehicles is a lower emission of green house gasses.

30 mpg is not so attractive any more. It is really not so hard to hit this mark. My 74 911 with a 3.6 will hit close to 28 if I baby it around (much worse if I am having fun) It is not a daily driver so I suffer my 20 mpg jeep on a daily basis.

At 20 mpg and a 100 mile round trip commute I am still looking at 20 dollars just to go back and forth to work. While this is not a crazy amount it is money I would rather spend elsewhere.

Since I have owned my jeep since 1996 I have put off buying something and just make my car payments at the gas pump.

The thing that drives me insane is the rediculous standards that are placed on diesel cars. The rest of the world has tons of cars that get 60+ mpg. The polo (European golf / rabbit) gets 62 mpg, the diesel mini cooper gets 72! Is the epa protecting the environment or are they in bed with the oil companies. I would buy a 62 mpg polo tomorrow if it was available here. Considering the rabbit is only a 14K car and the bump for diesel would be about 2500 - 3K I could almost make the payment on gas savings alone.

One last point, oil independence would do a lot more than free us from foreign oil it would shrink the trade deficit by billions of dollars(I have not done the math but it could possibly create a trade surplus). If we lower the trade deficit then US dollars become stronger. So not only would americans be saving more on gas the money they earn would be worth more. Since almost every electronic gadget is produced elsewhere people should really be paying attention to the recent downturn of the dollar. On a global scale we are now earning about 30 - 40 percent less than we were 6 or 7 years ago. You may not feel it immediately due to purchase contracts but this could all hit in the 6 month to a year time frame.

.... I will go ahead and wind this down since I can see I am about to go on a really long rant

Yep, it's kinda ironic when you consider that Americans buy all this cheap stuff from China, which required their factories to be built and expanded (with no polution regulations), which made them start buying oil like crazy, which caused our gas prices to rise. Then consider that we the American consumer, not China, are being made to feel guilty about polution!

Enviro regs against diesel cars are only partly to blame. We don't get Polos, MINI Ds, or any of the Japanese Kei cars mainly because the companies that make those cars don't believe they will sell to the typical USA buyer (and I would presume they spend $$$$$$ on their market research to continually justify their beliefs). The mere fact that you are hanging out on 914world with the rest of us makes you a non-typical consumer and there are simply not enough of us. I too would buy a MINI D. Three years ago I almost ended up with a TDI Jetta. I also think that there are problems with passing the crash testing for those little cars. Notice how long it is taking for the SMART cars to arrive? Maybe Detroit is also lobbying the Feds against diesel cars and the like, but I really think it boils down to "A'muricans" not wanting to spend their dollars on a MINI D when instead they can buy an Escalade E85 Hybrid

The crash testing for diesel versions of Jettas and Minis, which are, after all, cars we already have in the US, should not be much of a barrier to importation. They'd probably have to crash a few, but that's small potatoes compared to importing a never-before-seen car.

Skip

I was more specifically referring to the Polo with that statement on crash testing because you are right, the Jetta, MINI, etc are already certified in gasoline trims...

If I could get a Mini D I would SO jump on it.

I'd drop my subaru like a warm brick and bring the Mini D home tonight.

And I love my subaru.

Zach

I was looking at the specs for the new 1 series BMW a few months back. They have a variable twin turbo 2L diesel that gives 200hp and 300ftlbs torque, and still gets ~50mpg. But it won't come to the states.

Instead, we get a gas burning inline six with 300hp and 300ftlbs of torque, but less than half the mileage.

Sorry, but I don't need 300hp in a small sedan. The diesel would provide excellent performance with fantastic fuel mileage. Oh well.

Demick

this is what i'm waiting for....


http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/07/ge...l-boxer-engine/

OK, dumb question. Besides cost is there any reason why you couldn't buy a Mini D or and ship it to the states? I'm guessing a bunch of US BS regs would be the reason.

I have been looking for and at some older VW diesel rabbits to use around town. heck I even looked at a 3 cly Geo Metro coupe

If pollution is the issue, electric cars are NOT the answer. Look what it takes to make the electricity... CO still uses coal to generate power, I mean, c'mon. Until this country rethinks power generation and begins converting all power generation to nuclear, I wouldn't waste a dime on an electric car from a pollution standpoint.

Then, cost-wise, they are not worth it either. Let alone run time/distance between charges and how friggin' small the cars are (smaller is better in that arena).

A turbo, high pressure lean-burn diesel hybrid on the other hand... now we are talking. You could make a huge F250 diesel get close to 30mpg pretty easy with a hybrid option for cruising speed. The 4x4 crew cab long bed monsters get 18-20mpg on the highway as is, so working the technology to a leaner mix, or considering a valved 2-stroke with separately compressed charge (technology that is out there in the works that burns very lean and clean), etc with a hybrid setup could really be amazing. Cars averaging 75mpg pretty easily and don't have to be little shit-boxes like the Prius (my friend has one; couldn't give it to me). I am talking the 40mpg Audis and so forth getting around 75mpg.

Then invade and take over Canada (would be an easier fight than in the mid-East) and drill like crazy (Canada has a lot of untapped oil)

You and me BOTH. When those are available, I will be striving for the turbo-subaru swap. Economy + hp/torque = win on both counts.

Oh, comment on the E85 Escalades... Funny how E85 is being pushed in lieu of CNG and Diesel... Ethanol enriched fuels currently cost more to produce, and cost more on the consumer end. We wanted "environmentally friendly" gas, we got it. It's just not inexpensive environmentally friendly gas.

Maybe in Colorado they use a lot of coal, but it's hardly the only source of energy to create electricity, and in some states, like California, it generates well under half the electricity, according to Tesla's website. In Illinois I think about half the electricity is generated using coal.

While electricity generated from coal isn't the final answer, it's certainly a step in the right direction and you have the option of improving your electricity generation mix as time goes on. That's not likely to happen to a great degree with the internal combustion engine, in diesel or gasoline form.

Skip

Yes, exactly. It is much easier to scrub one large plant of pollutants than millions of auto engines. Electro Auto (where I got my kit) has a FAQ entry on this: http://www.electroauto.com/info/poll.shtml

While that is generally true, the power generation industry will continue along the path of the most economically feasibly way to power their plants. Also, there are many far reaching issues to deal with from power generation to battery manufacturing (which uses many very toxic materials). Many trade-offs to be considered, rather than over-simplified blanket solutions filled with un-informed assumptions (mostly from politicians and greens).

It makes me no expert on the subject by any means; I was involved (Sr. Mgr. of Mech. Design and Manufacturing) for a few years in the PNGV program (Partnership for Next Generation Vehicles), and designed rapid discharge rate Lithium ion cells specifically for that now defunct program. I can assure you that the amount of toxic chemicals used durring manufacture was quite surprising to me, and it's difficult to imagine it on a scale necessary to supply something like the auto industry. Disposal alone would be a huge issue, I would think.

PNGV was a consortium of the big three American auto companies to help develop energy efficient alternatives. Google it for more.

Andys

Skip, look at that chart and look at the percentage in CA alone created by coal and natural gas. That is just absolutely wrong. Look how little nuclear. Nuclear energy is really the safest and cleanest form of power production period. Even hydro tends to introduce pollutants into the water (oils from bearings and so forth end up in the water).

the fact that ANY energy is created in this modern age from coal and natural gas is proof that we are truly idiots on this subject in this country. People freak out when they think of nuclear power and compare it to a bomb, which are only comparable if you have a system of logic similar to Michael Moore.

Did you catch the part that said "Out of the 100% total potential energy in the crude oil, only 11% is left to turn the wheels of the car"?

The electical generation cycle is supposedly in the 55% efficency range - 5 times more efficient than the oil cycle. I agree that todays batteries are not the way to go for large scale relief from oil. But the electric car/hybrid is a great way of easing in electrical technology. Manufacturers can realisticly put technology into the cars without a drastic departure from their existing technology. Do their research - get experience in the field. Then when generation/storage issues have been resolved they will be ready to jump to oilless.

At the risk of being banished to the sandbox... Did you see the report from the Democrats that has their estimates of the true cost of the war in the middle east? Over $1trillion! Imagine if that money had been invested in NASA style research on energy self sufficiency 10 years ago. Americans wouldn't need the middle east - or Canada!

While I agree whole heartedly with you, nuclear is not the long term answer either. The pollutants from uranium mining are a very real problem with no easy solution. Long term storage of spent fuel rods is not easy either but it is at least managable.

The real problem is that there is a very finite amount of uranium around - we can consume that almost as fast as we consume oil.