Hello 914 World Members!

I am starting on restoring a $500 914 that was left in a field for several years with no windshield. The car belonged to the POs older brother and thus has sentimental value. The sold it to me on the condition that I not part it out. I was looking for a project so this was fine with me. This is my first restoration project so I figured I would learn a lot

The car is a mixture of really good sections, appears to have suffered no major accidents, is straight, never been repainted--but it has totally rusted out floors and hell hole. All the suspension mounting points are not rusted. The door gaps are all even and good. If I can replace the floors, I think it will be a good straight car. Many small parts were stolen while it was "stored" and the wiring loom is a complete loss.

Thanks for any comments...John

Some pictures in my restoration "garage".

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Hmmmm that sounds soooo familiar to me !! My 73 was picked up from a guy that drove it for a couple of years without a windshield in it. It sat outside for about 5 years before I got it. Stick with it and it will make a great project if it isn't too badly rusted !!

Start digging into it to see how bad the rust is. Heat the floorboard tar with a hot air gun and scrape it out. Then you can see how much damage has been done. Look at the longs to make sure the rust isn't up into them. Also look at the hell hole area below the battery.

I left my car outside for many years. Unknown to me, the rear window had come unglued and allowed water to enter the car. I ended up replacing the floorboard, and lower portions of the rear firewalls. The Longs were OK. I had taken care of the battery acid many years earlier, so my hell hole was not rusted through. The rear firewall inslulation had accumulated water , and the lower firewall was rusted. i cut it out and replaced it. I replaced the floorpan with one from AA. I wanted mine to be real nice, so I replaced a lot of stuff that would have been OK , just not as nice. Repair is much easier to do on a Rotiserrie. I have been working on it for just over 2 years. Lots of time spent, and a few $'s just to get it back to almost new. Almost everything on it had a little rust somewhere so i ended up cleaning almost everything up and re-painting it all. So far, it looks great. I will post photos soon. If you are prepared to do the work, you should be able to get a good car. Good luck, JoeO

Dig In, and see what you have. The undercoating on my '73 started falling off so I removed it all. Some guys spray with products to protect the insides of the wheels wells from rocks, others prime and paint with the rest of the car.

I noticed you live in Brevard, FL.....those are my old stomping grounds. I lived in Satellite Beach and went to school at BCC. Nice area.

Good luck with the start of your project, you found the right place for help and encouragement along the way.

Jim

As Yogi would say, its deja vu all over again. I picked up a '73 last April. Previous owner had not driven the car in over 15 years and had let it sit. Rear window leaked. Rear floorpan is rusted and a complete floor replacement will occur. Lower inner firewall is also rusted and needs work. Hell hole is pretty bad and will need to do some metal replacement on the inner and outer longs. But . . .

Original paint. No accidents. Door gaps are good. Car is straight. Will be doing a complete restoration and a 6 conversion. PO had undercoated the inner fender wells as well. A lot of the undercoating is now flaking off. I'm stripping the complete car to bare metal as part of the resto.

Welcome to the madness.

Thanks for the encouragement. I can see this is a road many of you have taken already. It looks like the floor pan is a total loss. I pried up a lot of the tar and the floor is basically falling out. The lower, inner edges of the longs are rusted through, the rest is not too bad.

It is finally cool enough down here in FL to work outside and be somewhat comfortable. Brevard county is nice but you get tired of the humidity all the time.

If the inside edge of the longs are rusted out (the part closest to the cabin) and the floor pan needs replacing, should I replace the floor pan first and then patch the longs or the other way around? I assume the floor pan is spot welded to the bottom of the inner long, right?

I think I will take off the undercoating as well. Any tips on how to remove what is left of the edges of the floor pan? Is this a matter of drilling out spot welds and peeling it off with an air chisel?

What size six are you thinking of putting in? I have not decided on a motor yet, but would like lots of torque for AX, maybe a big type 4.

You're correct. The floorpan is spot welded to the longs. You'll need to patch and repair the longs before you weld in the new floorpan.

I hate to be a spoil sport but that interior picture tells me you have more than floor board problems. The longs are badly rusted at the bottom and if the pattern is the same as mine then the rust started inside and there is no steel left down there. It can be repaired - see the thread 'digging into hell'. I think it is now in the classics.

Get out your ice pick and go poking around. Look at the outer longs as well particularly passenger side rear.

Yes, you are right. The inside part of both longs are rusted through. Strangely, the outside longs are in good shape except at the front and back ends. Passenger rear is in bad shape, I guess from hell hole rust through.

I read your "digging into hell" thread, great stuff for someone who has the same problems to solve.

Just for the record that wasn't me on the digging into hell thread. That was michelko from Germany. I just wish I had the skills and patience that he has!

I had to accept that my car was beyond my ability to restore. I went out and bought another project with a strong frame - lot cheaper in the long run. Took a lot of soul searching to make that decision. I had that car since college days.

Without doubt the passenger rear is from the battery acid. You will probably find more of the same behind the passenger seat on the firewall.

.

If you decide to go the big 4 route check out Jake Raby. If you want to autocross your car, the 4 is probably your best choice - others here may disagree. A number of Jake's combos put out as much hp and torque as some sixes and you save weight. Run a search here for Jake's stuff or visit his site at www.aircooledtechnology.com

My car will be just a street car. I was going to go 4 until I located a nice 3.2 six. Now, the 4 will be saved for a future Spyder project.

Yep, if a powerful lightweight, nimble car is to be in the future feel free to yell at me!

We now have 200HP in kit form and 225 in Turnkey form..

On pump gas.

Thanks guys, I am seriously interested in a 2270 4 cylinder or maybe McMark's
$5000 special...

I need to post some progress pictures because I am getting the longs and hell hole into shape. Soon it will be time to get a motor ordered so it will be ready when I am.

I am undecided about 4 lug versus 5 lug. I need to decide so I can get my brakes calipers rebuilt and buy some new rotors.

It would help if it would quit raining here in Florida, this is supposed to be the dry season

John

Cleaned to good metal, primed, patched and added home brewed 16 guage hell hole/long stiffener. I primed it right after this shot but the shiny metal looks nice after all the rust.

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McMark is sending me a new motor mount.

Now I need to determine if I need a new suspension console as well.

Nice work, I think you will do well.
I just did a chassis in worse shape than "diggin into hell". I didn't do it for sentimental reasons, or financial reasons, I only did it so that I could say I did.
Good luck and email me if you need long distance advice on anything.

Indeed that was one awful looking chassis you brought back to life Doug.

You want to do it again - got just the car for you lol

Thanks Doug, I will most likely be asking for advice. "Digging into hell" is one of my favorite threads along with "Bringing out the dead". I have learned so much from this board.

Where is Timmins? I spent a lot of time in Ontario and have relatives in Ottawa. Canada is a great country for a lot of reasons but just too cold for too long.

John

Hell hole finally makes it to primer heaven! I don't like the look of the welds sticking up but I would rather not weaken it with too much grinding.

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Outside of long patched up and new jack hole stuff. Not sure I stuck the jack hole tube out far enough, I don't want to have to weld on an extension. Should I weld the end of the jack hole tube to the jack hole cover?

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Still need to weld on a new motor mount and probably need to replace my suspension console. The bottom of it is pretty much crumbling with rust.

John

nice progress!


did 'ya add the VIN to our database?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=membervins

Andy

Cut rust out of front of passenger long. Notice there are three layers of metal in this area. A flat piece that is the continuation of the passenger inner footwell that curves around the front wheel then goes straight back down the long for 7 inches or so. The wrongly named inner long covers this, followed by a box like section that continues the door jam down to the bottom of the long.

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Could not find the curved inner footwell section anywhere so I hammer formed one on a hardwood mold. I cheated and welded the strip for the bottom pinch weld instead of trying to get the sheet metal to flow in all the directions needed. By carefully tracing the curve of the inner fender well before making my mold it actually fits pretty well. Also made a section to continue the inner most layer of metal down to the bottom of the long.

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Weld this up and keep chugging. My goal is to be driving this sucker by my birthday in August. I'm probably dreaming...

Innermost sheet metal welded in.

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Sleeving the inner long patch. You can see the innermost patch has been ground and primed. The hammer formed footwell patch has been welded in, ground (somewhat) and primed. I hate grinding...I love welding.

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Section of a Restoration Design inner long panel comes next.

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Ready for the hole puncher and some rosette welding.

Welded and cleaned. Nothing better than shiny new welds. You can see the rosette welds for the sleeving I did on the rear section of the inner long patch.

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Last of the three layers is the box at the bottom of the door jam. I hammer formed this, welded, ground, and primed it. Didn't take any intermediate pictures for some reason.

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The work in these last three posts took about all my spare time for the last three weeks. Still some odds and ends to do on this side but I am starting to feel I am getting there. Other side is not nearly as bad at the back, just as bad at the front.

John

VIN number added to 914 World database. I'll add the other numbers next time I work on the car.

Note that I use weldable primer on anything that will get direct welds later on. I use etching primer on stuff that will be painted and not welded on. The weldable primer I am using is mostly zinc and I don't think it is any good under regular primer or paint.

It takes some planning to make sure everything is protected the right way (I hope) before it gets sealed up. I am trying to follow the practices used by some of the rust repair gods on this board.

Now its time for a

Looks pretty good. Keep up the nice work and keep us posted with pictures.

Looking great!

And I couldn't agree more:
grinding = sucks, welding = fun.

John
It looks like its coming good.

Timmins is about 500 miles NE of Ottawa and 500 miles N of Toronto.

My DD is asleep until May but that gives me the winter to work on my project car.
Here are some pictures to give you inspiration. One less than a year ago during the body reconstruction and one current about 3 weeks ago.
As soon as I can figure out how to put a 130 picture PP Presentation on my blog you can see the entire restoration up to today.

Wow Doug, that was some serious rust. Lookin' good!

Man Doug, looks like the heater tube was the only thing keeping that car together... It is looking good now.

I have been grinding using 7 inch 36 grit sanding disks for rough work. The first few minutes of a new disk they really remove metal. I use a 5 inch 36 grit for more careful stuff. Is there any faster/easier way to do it?

It took me a while to figure out the importance of cutting oil when drilling spot welds. Bits sure last a lot longer using the oil.

Soon I will have to rebuild my tunnel. All the tubes that go through it are rusted solid. I have the back half of a tunnel from another board member.

Does anyone know what the tubes in the tunnel are made of and what diameter they are? Where would you get replacements?

John

McMaster Carr should have the right size tubing (since they have everyone one could ever want). www.mcmaster.com

You might want to ask Jeff Hail. In his thread he replaces the tubes inside his longs.

Fixing the driver side footwell and long. It is missing the front of the inner fender
and most of the end of the long.

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Made a hammer form to make a replacement for the curved part at the bottom
of the inner fender. I used the same form on the passenger side by routing a
curve into both sides of the form. The form is made from scrap hardwood that
was cut to match the shape of the curve of the fender. I screwed the metal piece
to the form in three places to hold it while hammering it into shape. I welded a
strip to the bottom to form the pinch weld with the bottom of the floor and with the
end of the long. It got a little toasted during the welding, but it kept the new
piece in the right shape until the welding cooled.

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Hammer formed part welded to the inner fender.

Hammer form held up to the part it was used to make. The new metal piece
was hammered around the bottom lip of the form. The passenger side was
fixed using a piece hammered around the top of the form.

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Peeling the rust bucket onion

The end of the driver long does not look too bad on the outside. Just some rust holes and surface rust???

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Cutting off the outer most layer reveals load of rust.

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Cutting off the next layer reveals yet more rust, mostly at the bottom of the long.

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Clean all the rust, use metal prep and prime all the layers and innards. Also welded on the hammer formed fender patch.

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Rebuilding the first layer of the onion.

Made a patch for the innermost layer.

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Welded the patch.

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Grind down and prime the innermost layer.

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Rebuilding the second layer of the onion.

Made a patch using the end of a restoration design inner long. I used the top
of the end to make a sleeve to make welding the patch on easier. Here you
can see the sleeve which has been rosette welded in place in the top of the hole.
Because the sleeve was made from the top of the patch, it fits perfectly and
takes little time to make.

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Here is the patch itself. I punched holes for rosette welding, which is way
faster and neater than drilling. A $20 hand operated metal hole puncher
is a cheap way to save some time.

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Welded, ground, and primed. I hate to grind too much and weaken the whole
repair just to get a perfectly flat surface. Maybe some all-metal filler to smooth
it out???-

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Not perfect, but better than the rusty, gaping hole.

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Still one layer left to go, the box section at the bottom of the door post, which will have to wait for later...

Now I have this pristine pedal and brake master cylinder area to look forward to fixing.

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But first, some pictures from Roebling Road driver's education last weekend.

There were several very fast race prepped 914s howling around the track.

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The yellow car was fastest everywhere except the main straight, and appeared
to me to be pulling away from the two Carrera GTs that were out. I never saw
any car pass this car all weekend including the 997 turbos, 997 GT3s, 997 RSs.

This 914 was definitely the loudest car there. The owners told me they had
$100,000 into it and were selling it for somewhere around $40,000 after winning
two SARRC championships with it. Too bad I blew all my funds on pork rinds,
beer and 914 parts already...

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Afew more gratuitous Roebling pictures...

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Now it is back to work...

John

Welded on a patch to the lower part of the passenger side firewall.

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Replaced the passenger suspension console. I found it to be a pain to get
the old one off. There was some kind of reinforcing plate welded between the
inner and outer rear suspension consoles, is this normal?

I also welded on the pristine motor mount sent to me by McMark.

Last, I welded on a new engine tray. I should have taken more
intermediate pictures.

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Now my engine bay is starting to look somewhat decent on this side.

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Now it is time to fix the "Heck Hole" which is like the Hell Hole only on
the driver's side. It is not as bad as the Hell Hole, thus the name.

Today I have a work crew to help me out:

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Heck Hole after lots of grinding, cleaning and some metal ready.

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Made a template for a large 16 gauge patch.

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Next I will weld the patch on and fix the firewall.

Fantastic work!

Thanks Van, but I am really just an amateur at this. I could never have done anything without all the information and especially photo sequences on 914 world.

John

Keep it up..

John good work. I have used por 15 for many years and some of it has come back to haunt me. Several years ago I got a 79 jeep J10 in pretty bad shape an redid it for hunting. I sand blasted the entire outside below the windows and under the bottom with all of the front end off. I sprayed por 15 on everything. I then used a light blue primer they also sold to be a coating I could paint over. I didn't use the blue primer under the wheel wells just the por15. Now it appears after about 6 years the undercoat I put over the por 15 has come off and some of the por15 has gotten beat off from rocks or just came off. This has only showed up on the front and rear wheel wells. I used a rubber undercoat. I am going to do it over but I will use PPG black epoxy non sanding primer this time and re apply the rubber under coat. I think it is too hard to get por 15 to take top coats. It is very durable but there might be a better rust sealer and base coat. I may try the eastwood products on the 914.
Just my experience.
Charliew

you guys are true 914 champions.

the POR 15 needs to be primmered while its still tacky. nothing will adhere to it once its cured. POR15 has poor adhesion to smooth metal

John,

Great work. It is nice to see someone save a car that many people would say is not worth the trouble and would just cut up. There is only a finite number of these cars.

I am doing some repair to similar areas on my car, but mine is not in as bad as shape as yours.

Richard

Thanks for all the responses. Its nice to know I am not the only crazy person
out here. I believe the 914 will go the way of the 356 and early 911, i.e. people will realize what a cool car they are and stop cutting up any but badly wrecked ones. With some modern upgrades not available when they were new these cars can whale on nearly anything through the turns...see my Roebling post about 914 versus Carrera GT.

I have heard a lot of mixed reviews about POR 15 as well. I most wire wheel away all the rust, then wash with paint prep solution, then spray on metal ready, then wipe with a moist shop towel, and then finally spray on Eastwood etching primer. I will cover this with a few coats of some compatible sealer before painting. I intend to talk to Eastwood folks about what I should use. If I can't get all the rust off with the wire wheel, I usually use a rust desolving product, clean with water and then metal ready, etc. If I am going to weld a patch or part, I paint the inside with high zinc weldable primer. I sprayed that liberally inside my longs after the metal ready rather than POR 15. I did not open up the longs enough to paint them all so I just blasted the zinc primer (which you are not supposed to paint over) down from each side. It took my car 35 years to get
as rusty as it did, including many years with no windshield sitting a few miles from the ocean.

I think the inside of the longs were originally galvanized, and where there was no water standing, they looked pretty much new. I have seam welded the top edge of any patches I put on and will liberally seam seal them to keep water from getting back inside (which caused the rust problems in the first place). I plan to weld up all the holes in the roll bar, use painted sail panels instead of vinyl and generally get rid of any potential holes in the metal were water can get in and cause further problems. I left the drain holes in the bottom of the longs. I may even weld up the cowl solid to the fenders. Its not like you can unscrew the fenders and remove them like you can on some other cars. That seam appears to be little more than a place for water to get in an rust the front part of your doors and longs.

As an experiment, I painted a piece of new steel with the high zinc primer and left it outside for a month or so. I live about 1000 feet from the ocean so its pretty damn salty here. A brand new (cheap) gas grill is transformed into a pile of rusty metal in about 2 years (no kidding).

So far there is a little surface rust on the metal where I scratched it by accident but other pieces I did not treat have 1 mm of crusty rust on them. If I get ambitious I may do a test with some of the common rust treatments to see what happens.

Sorry for the long winded speach but rust is on my mind every time I work on my car. If I don't go through the rust fighting ritual on any bare metal at the end of each session, the metal has a good coat of surface rust in 2 or 3 days...

John

Fixing the driver's side jacking point. I cut off the lower part of the fender to be able to get to this area. I hated to do it, but it is really the only way to fix this right. I hope I can weld it back on without pretzeling my whole fender. Cut out all the rusted areas, and after much grinding, wire wheeling, and metal ready it looked like this.

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Welded on some 16 gauge patches. I always coat the back of patches with high zinc weldable primer.

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Welded a new jacking tube onto the patch and then welded a new jack plate over it. Welded a patch over the other hole. You can see some seam welded repairs at the top where I fixed some holes in the engine compartment above the long.

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Ground as much as I could stand it and primed.

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I have a new set of door sills to put on. AA is out of sill triangles or I would tackle this now. I could make some but I would rather just get the ones I already ordered than spend time on it.

One more major longitudinal problem to fix. Made a home brewed "lower inner long patch" out of 16 guage steel. I say lower because mine wrap around the lower part of the long, unlike the Engman and other long kits that wrap around the upper part. This works because I have no floors on my car. I realize this will lower my floors by one fourteenth of an inch.

There are some waves in the lower side of the longs that fit the factory floor pan edge. I will have to flatten my floor pans in these areas to fit the now flat bottom of my longs. We'll see if this is a big problem or not pretty soon.

I can also add an upper long kit cut off half way down to meet with my lower kit later if I want to.

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Welded it on. The weird shape allows it to fit around the firewall and the heater tube. I welded it to the heater tube pretty solidly. You can also see some patches I made to my firewall. The entire firewall and engine bay is pretty much done at this point.

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