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Ok- I found someone to work on the 914 racer I bought in Chicagoland this fall - not in Chicago but instead out in Phoenix where the car will be located when our house eventually sells. This is the car that had not been run in over 12 years and was stored without starting or any maintenance in that period. The good news is - It's Alive. We were able to get it running without doing much of anything to it and the compression is reasonable, so probably no rebuild. We are getting PMOs rather than rebuilding the Webers and then I will put the Webers on ebay to recoup some of the cost.
The bad news, the brakes are a bit wonky. They are a collection of obsolete parts that are strangely mated. It has jfz? calipers on the front that were shimmed down inside the caliper from calipers meant to work with 1.25" thick rotors to work instead with .810 X 12.250 rotors on coleman hats. The rears are front S calipers working on smaller rotors. The front calipers are totally obsolete and not rebuildable, while the rears would need new or replated pistins. As long as things are rusty and odd in the brake department, we are looking to upsize to 1.25 thick rotors about the same 12.250 diameter on the front and rear with new calipersfront and rear. We were thinking wilwood forged billet superlight calipers front and rear as they are reasonably priced, but we are having a hard time finding appropriate hats and rotors to fit, or rotors to fit the original coleman hats which have an unusual bolt pattern.
Can anyone recommend a source for hats and rotors, or an alternative setup that will not break the bank like buying Brembos would? I would like to get away spending 2 - 3K for the whole shooting match, and a full brembo setup would run at least 5K from what I can find. I would like to stay with a lightweight hat / seperate rotor setup if possible to avoid adding more weight. Anyone have a ready to go source for AP - Wilwood or similar that they know will work?
Any help would be appreciated - Thanks in advance, Rick
Full Version: Race Level Track Brake Help - What do You use?
how much does the car weight and how much HP does it put down?
i think you could get away with a more standard 911 setup for the rotors (vented and drilled/slotted) and boxster calipers.
that, good aggressive brake pads and adequate cooling should make for very good braking that doesn't break the bank.
just for comparison, Tom van Overbeek's 911 toyo spec car (see pic) runs a similar setup and his 3.0L motor is pushing 2400 lbs of car around the track with ~320 HP ...
Andy
i think you could get away with a more standard 911 setup for the rotors (vented and drilled/slotted) and boxster calipers.
that, good aggressive brake pads and adequate cooling should make for very good braking that doesn't break the bank.
just for comparison, Tom van Overbeek's 911 toyo spec car (see pic) runs a similar setup and his 3.0L motor is pushing 2400 lbs of car around the track with ~320 HP ...
Andy
Andy - car should end up 1600 - 1800 I believe. The engine is 220 - 240 hp, but I want to future proof the car to work with a 3.6 330hp and heavy braking if it comes to that. I really want to stay with a race setup and just do it once. I don't even want to have to think about brakes again once they are done.
I know, which part didn't I think would be expensive, the racing part or the Porsche part.
I know, which part didn't I think would be expensive, the racing part or the Porsche part.
I have a matched set of 944T (Brembo) Calipers that might do well for that application.
Rick,
Why are you apprehensive with the JFZ calipers? JFZ is now basically Sierra, so all parts/pads, etc are all very much available. Shimming-down calipers to fit the rotors is not an uncommon practice, and 12.25 x .810's I would think be quite adequate. Several manufacturers catalog these rotors, and Coleman is still in business (for the hats). Those rotors are used on 3400lb stock cars. Perhaps some freshening-up is all that's needed on the fronts? Would certainly save you some $$. I'll defer the rears to the Porsche caliper experts, but bottom line is braking performance which knows no brand distinction.
Andys
Why are you apprehensive with the JFZ calipers? JFZ is now basically Sierra, so all parts/pads, etc are all very much available. Shimming-down calipers to fit the rotors is not an uncommon practice, and 12.25 x .810's I would think be quite adequate. Several manufacturers catalog these rotors, and Coleman is still in business (for the hats). Those rotors are used on 3400lb stock cars. Perhaps some freshening-up is all that's needed on the fronts? Would certainly save you some $$. I'll defer the rears to the Porsche caliper experts, but bottom line is braking performance which knows no brand distinction.
Andys
QUOTE(andys @ Dec 20 2007, 10:54 AM) 
Rick,
Why are you apprehensive with the JFZ calipers? JFZ is now basically Sierra, so all parts/pads, etc are all very much available. Shimming-down calipers to fit the rotors is not an uncommon practice, and 12.25 x .810's I would think be quite adequate. Several manufacturers catalog these rotors, and Coleman is still in business (for the hats). Those rotors are used on 3400lb stock cars. Perhaps some freshening-up is all that's needed on the fronts? Would certainly save you some $$. I'll defer the rears to the Porsche caliper experts, but bottom line is braking performance which knows no brand distinction.
Andys
Call Race Technologies and pick up a full set ( f&r)of 993 Big Reds. I have that set up and love them
The brakes are easy to do. They are built like Wilwoods. You could probably get a kit from them also. It is just a square O-ring. Just pull the pistons out and measure them. The rotors should be an 8x7.00 bolt pattern. But you can measure that too. Rotors should be available. We need some pics.
Your roll cage is not legal. You will need to update it with forward bars, rear bars, diagonal in main hoop, etc.
Your roll cage is not legal. You will need to update it with forward bars, rear bars, diagonal in main hoop, etc.
Ok thanks for the replys so far!
Eric - I want to go with all new parts, and really the hats are the hardest thing to find in the correct size / pattern.
andys - I really just want to go with new parts as much as possible.
0396 - I looked at the big reds, but I thought you had to go with 17" wheels, and I really would like to use 16s for smaller tire diameters available in that size. I would actually like to keep the 15s that were with the car for even smaller tire diameters, but that seems unlikely from what I am seeing. The current setup had the calipers sanded down to fit the 15s. Also they are pretty pricey - no??
Brett W - we did check with wilwood and they do not have rebuild parts to fit these particular calipers. The rotor hats have a 7.625 x 8 bolt circle with an 8.250 far side inside diameter. the rotors on the car currently are 12.250 diameter. Regarding the roll cage, it does need rear bracing for scca but the front bars are not required, just preferred, unless that rule changed for next year. There is a bigger problem with the cage however in that the main hoop is lower than the stock targa hoop even though the car was built as a roadster. the Mickey Mouse ears welded on are not counted, and some scca techs would not allow the car with them in any case. Its going to be a bear to change the main hoop as the cage is built with nascar side tubes so there are three side bars welded into the main hoop on each side plus the tubes going to the rear that make up the rear frame that would be very time consuming to take apart. I may just put the rear bars in and try to see if I can mount the seat low enough to clear the main hoop as is. If I want to add a diagonal bar that could be done when I change the cross bar behind the seat to snake back along the firewall. I could add a petty bar at the same time if I want some extra security,but as I will be using the car more for time trials and solo events than wheel to wheel, I am really not too worried about my safety vis a vis the cage
All in all, I wish Brembo would sell hats only so I could source other parts in easy to find mounting sizes. The wilwood calipers would be fine for this car as even the forged billet models are not too costly. Really, the biggest problem seems to be primarily the hats in proper spacing and porsche bolt patterns.
Eric - I want to go with all new parts, and really the hats are the hardest thing to find in the correct size / pattern.
andys - I really just want to go with new parts as much as possible.
0396 - I looked at the big reds, but I thought you had to go with 17" wheels, and I really would like to use 16s for smaller tire diameters available in that size. I would actually like to keep the 15s that were with the car for even smaller tire diameters, but that seems unlikely from what I am seeing. The current setup had the calipers sanded down to fit the 15s. Also they are pretty pricey - no??
Brett W - we did check with wilwood and they do not have rebuild parts to fit these particular calipers. The rotor hats have a 7.625 x 8 bolt circle with an 8.250 far side inside diameter. the rotors on the car currently are 12.250 diameter. Regarding the roll cage, it does need rear bracing for scca but the front bars are not required, just preferred, unless that rule changed for next year. There is a bigger problem with the cage however in that the main hoop is lower than the stock targa hoop even though the car was built as a roadster. the Mickey Mouse ears welded on are not counted, and some scca techs would not allow the car with them in any case. Its going to be a bear to change the main hoop as the cage is built with nascar side tubes so there are three side bars welded into the main hoop on each side plus the tubes going to the rear that make up the rear frame that would be very time consuming to take apart. I may just put the rear bars in and try to see if I can mount the seat low enough to clear the main hoop as is. If I want to add a diagonal bar that could be done when I change the cross bar behind the seat to snake back along the firewall. I could add a petty bar at the same time if I want some extra security,but as I will be using the car more for time trials and solo events than wheel to wheel, I am really not too worried about my safety vis a vis the cage
All in all, I wish Brembo would sell hats only so I could source other parts in easy to find mounting sizes. The wilwood calipers would be fine for this car as even the forged billet models are not too costly. Really, the biggest problem seems to be primarily the hats in proper spacing and porsche bolt patterns.
Wilwood has you covered on the rotors. I can get you any OD up to 12.72. What width do you need? 1.25 or .810?
A for the cage, you have to have the proper cage for level three and four time trials with SCCA, but you can run with just a four point roll bar. I would however just rebuild the whole cage and make it right. Run a true low hoop front and standard high main hoop. The SCCA rule book requires a diagonal within the plane of the main hoop. You might as well use the cage to stiffen up the chassis. I am not a big fan of NASCAR door bars, but that is up to you.
Good luck with your setup.
A for the cage, you have to have the proper cage for level three and four time trials with SCCA, but you can run with just a four point roll bar. I would however just rebuild the whole cage and make it right. Run a true low hoop front and standard high main hoop. The SCCA rule book requires a diagonal within the plane of the main hoop. You might as well use the cage to stiffen up the chassis. I am not a big fan of NASCAR door bars, but that is up to you.
Good luck with your setup.
Brett W - Thanks for the help - I bumped the original post on this car so you could see the current cage configuration. The car is really stiff as it is, We jacked it up from the middle of the passenger side frame, and the front wheels both raised off the ground at the same time - no droop at all. If you look at the old post - http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=72014
- It is a really stout cage and frame - just not up to current specs. There is already a front knee tube and a front roll tube just below the windscreen. There may be enough room to add a new main hoop forward of the old one at a slight backward angle that could be welded to the 1.5" tube built into the longs and braced into the old cage where required. Then forward braces and if required rear braces could be tied into the old frame. The top of the old cage could be cut out and connected to the new main hoop with short tubes at various locations. If there is room to do this is there any reason it would not pass inspection? Also, from looking at the pics on the front of the runnoff edition of Sportscar, I am wondering if I misinterpreted what the scca tech we talked to was saying. Its hard to tell, but is the cage ok with only front bracing and no added braces to the rear? On a couple of the cars it's hard to see any rear bracing at all although it is hard to tell with the frontal photo angles on most of the cars except for s2000 & such. Any further input would be welcome.
Thanks in advance, Rick
- It is a really stout cage and frame - just not up to current specs. There is already a front knee tube and a front roll tube just below the windscreen. There may be enough room to add a new main hoop forward of the old one at a slight backward angle that could be welded to the 1.5" tube built into the longs and braced into the old cage where required. Then forward braces and if required rear braces could be tied into the old frame. The top of the old cage could be cut out and connected to the new main hoop with short tubes at various locations. If there is room to do this is there any reason it would not pass inspection? Also, from looking at the pics on the front of the runnoff edition of Sportscar, I am wondering if I misinterpreted what the scca tech we talked to was saying. Its hard to tell, but is the cage ok with only front bracing and no added braces to the rear? On a couple of the cars it's hard to see any rear bracing at all although it is hard to tell with the frontal photo angles on most of the cars except for s2000 & such. Any further input would be welcome.
Thanks in advance, Rick
The car is only legal for GT2 or SPO in its current form. It will be a serious fight in either class. I need some more pictures of the chassis, but by removing all of the rear sheetmetal, you really limit your class.
AS for the cage, you can gain some serious stiffness with proper triangulation. You must have the diagonal and the rear down bars for SCCA and NASA. The rear down bars should connect to the upper shock mounts and you might as well run bars down in the front also as they will tie the chassis together very well. I don't like NASCAR door bars as they are weaker than a set of straight tubes connecting the front and main hoops. But that is another discussions. I am not so sure you can save the door bars with the main hoop replacement. Do you know what material the cage is built from?
Right now you are loosing considerable stiffness in the rear of the car without bracing the rear spring perches. I realize you would like to keep the price down on the mods required to get it legal, but you will be in there fixing the cage anyways, may as well really fix the problems. It won't be that much more.
Could you get me some more pics of the front of the chassis and the knee bar? Why not just send me the car and let me fix it for you. I bet we could work a deal for both of us. PM me.
AS for the cage, you can gain some serious stiffness with proper triangulation. You must have the diagonal and the rear down bars for SCCA and NASA. The rear down bars should connect to the upper shock mounts and you might as well run bars down in the front also as they will tie the chassis together very well. I don't like NASCAR door bars as they are weaker than a set of straight tubes connecting the front and main hoops. But that is another discussions. I am not so sure you can save the door bars with the main hoop replacement. Do you know what material the cage is built from?
Right now you are loosing considerable stiffness in the rear of the car without bracing the rear spring perches. I realize you would like to keep the price down on the mods required to get it legal, but you will be in there fixing the cage anyways, may as well really fix the problems. It won't be that much more.
Could you get me some more pics of the front of the chassis and the knee bar? Why not just send me the car and let me fix it for you. I bet we could work a deal for both of us. PM me.
QUOTE(RickJK @ Dec 21 2007, 12:33 AM)
Ok thanks for the replys so far!
Eric - I want to go with all new parts, and really the hats are the hardest thing to find in the correct size / pattern.
andys - I really just want to go with new parts as much as possible.
0396 - I looked at the big reds, but I thought you had to go with 17" wheels, and I really would like to use 16s for smaller tire diameters available in that size. I would actually like to keep the 15s that were with the car for even smaller tire diameters, but that seems unlikely from what I am seeing. The current setup had the calipers sanded down to fit the 15s. Also they are pretty pricey - no??
Brett W - we did check with wilwood and they do not have rebuild parts to fit these particular calipers. The rotor hats have a 7.625 x 8 bolt circle with an 8.250 far side inside diameter. the rotors on the car currently are 12.250 diameter. Regarding the roll cage, it does need rear bracing for scca but the front bars are not required, just preferred, unless that rule changed for next year. There is a bigger problem with the cage however in that the main hoop is lower than the stock targa hoop even though the car was built as a roadster. the Mickey Mouse ears welded on are not counted, and some scca techs would not allow the car with them in any case. Its going to be a bear to change the main hoop as the cage is built with nascar side tubes so there are three side bars welded into the main hoop on each side plus the tubes going to the rear that make up the rear frame that would be very time consuming to take apart. I may just put the rear bars in and try to see if I can mount the seat low enough to clear the main hoop as is. If I want to add a diagonal bar that could be done when I change the cross bar behind the seat to snake back along the firewall. I could add a petty bar at the same time if I want some extra security,but as I will be using the car more for time trials and solo events than wheel to wheel, I am really not too worried about my safety vis a vis the cage
All in all, I wish Brembo would sell hats only so I could source other parts in easy to find mounting sizes. The wilwood calipers would be fine for this car as even the forged billet models are not too costly. Really, the biggest problem seems to be primarily the hats in proper spacing and porsche bolt patterns.
The 16s will work.. only thing is to 'space' them out . As for cost $3600.00 for the set:)
Brett - thanks for the offer, but I have someone here to do the cage work. The frame as I mentioned is really extremely stiff. The man who is doing the mechanical work has his own turbo track 914 that has won one of the multi-day track challenge events, and he has been extremely impressed by the rigidity of the frame. His comment was that those nascar boys really like to build them strong. I guess I was right in my original interpretation of the scca tech in that just the rear bars are required. When looking at the frame pictures I do think we might be able to add a new main bar into the mix with some creative tube work. THe man who will be doing the tube work builds replica rsr 911s for a living so he is pretty meticulous and talented with his work, and the biggest bonus is that he is here in phoenix. Thanks again with the suggestions. I may message you regarding wilwood parts if you have access to those though. Thanks again.
0396 -If I can't make the wilwoods work I may look into those Brembos if that is the right pricing, rennsport systems also lists some brembos that are for sure sized to work with 16s so I may check them out as well. I did find someone closing out brembo rears that might work so that would help with the cost somewhat.
0396 -If I can't make the wilwoods work I may look into those Brembos if that is the right pricing, rennsport systems also lists some brembos that are for sure sized to work with 16s so I may check them out as well. I did find someone closing out brembo rears that might work so that would help with the cost somewhat.
QUOTE(RickJK @ Dec 21 2007, 09:27 PM)
Brett - thanks for the offer, but I have someone here to do the cage work. The frame as I mentioned is really extremely stiff. The man who is doing the mechanical work has his own turbo track 914 that has won one of the multi-day track challenge events, and he has been extremely impressed by the rigidity of the frame. His comment was that those nascar boys really like to build them strong. I guess I was right in my original interpretation of the scca tech in that just the rear bars are required. When looking at the frame pictures I do think we might be able to add a new main bar into the mix with some creative tube work. THe man who will be doing the tube work builds replica rsr 911s for a living so he is pretty meticulous and talented with his work, and the biggest bonus is that he is here in phoenix. Thanks again with the suggestions. I may message you regarding wilwood parts if you have access to those though. Thanks again.
0396 -If I can't make the wilwoods work I may look into those Brembos if that is the right pricing, rennsport systems also lists some brembos that are for sure sized to work with 16s so I may check them out as well. I did find someone closing out brembo rears that might work so that would help with the cost somewhat.
rennsport .. great place. Here's Steve's link.
mailto:Steve@http://www.rennsportsystems.com
RickJK,
Here's another source for even more brake options
Vehicle Craft
Options are always good!
And since you're in Phoenix, you're close to another 914 race shop... Just in case you aren't already a customer here's the link
Beck's Independent Porsche
I'm anxious to watch the progress on your car.
Here's another source for even more brake options
Vehicle Craft
Options are always good!
And since you're in Phoenix, you're close to another 914 race shop... Just in case you aren't already a customer here's the link
Beck's Independent Porsche
I'm anxious to watch the progress on your car.
Who in Phoenix is working on the car? Beck and Patrick turn out really nice cars. Don Jacksons does too.
As for brakes, Wild6 is running a 3.6L motor and using Boxster brakes on the front and is very happy with them. They can be purchased new from Porsche North Scottsdale.
I believe he is running stock 914-6 rear brakes.
Look forward to seeing you out at the track. Club Race Arizona (NASA) and ProAutoSports are two groups that put on eight to 10 weekend events a year. CRA has Time Attack which is fun and a great group of drivers in the DE4 group. A lot of the PCA guys run there. I tend to run ProAutoSports, usually a smaller turn out making the track a little more open and they have a group for open wheel cars.
As for brakes, Wild6 is running a 3.6L motor and using Boxster brakes on the front and is very happy with them. They can be purchased new from Porsche North Scottsdale.
I believe he is running stock 914-6 rear brakes.
Look forward to seeing you out at the track. Club Race Arizona (NASA) and ProAutoSports are two groups that put on eight to 10 weekend events a year. CRA has Time Attack which is fun and a great group of drivers in the DE4 group. A lot of the PCA guys run there. I tend to run ProAutoSports, usually a smaller turn out making the track a little more open and they have a group for open wheel cars.
QUOTE(race914 @ Dec 22 2007, 11:05 AM)
I (and lots of others) use the Vehicle Craft rotors on my 914/6 track car, and have been very happy. They have lots of options, and have calipers too if you want to go with Porsche/Brembo.
I personally use Wilwood calipers, which are pretty much like the JFZs. Definitely not as fancy as Porsche/Brembo, but they do work well.
Gregrobbins - Drew Salter is doing the mechanical work on the car. I really like Drew quite a lot, and his pace matches mine. I have a chance to examine the options and decide what direction will best turn the car into my idea of fun. I believe that Drews friend
Jimmy will be doing the tube and some of the body work. I will be looking into the various opportunities such as nasa hopefully by spring. I will have to start out in a dangerously low run group however as we want to run the car with its existing suspension before making any changes there. We know its not right as is, but Drew wants to get my input before we decide where exactly to go with springs and shocks. Its way off now with a front rate of 400 lbs/in + a front swaybar, and 250 lbs/in at the rear w/o any additional roll control. I hope to see you out there - I may stop by a few events to get some sense of things before my car is actually done. Nasa time trials and PCA autocrosses are on the list to check out. The local NASA site seemed to be down or something the last time I tried to check things out, I will have to keep on top of it to find the next appropriate event. I would be interested in finding out more about ProAutoSports as well.
Race914 & stownson914 - Thanks for the info on Vehicle Craft - I will look into them and the others mentioned after the holidays.
stownson914 - we were thinking of using the Forged Billet Superlights front and rear as they match my cars existing mounting spread and seem fairly stiff. Is that the model you are using?
As an aside, has anyone seen the new ap racing "radi-calipers"? They were written up in the November Race Tech Magazine. They have a nascar version that was run in a race in prototype form and ran 129 degrees cooler than the usual nascar part. They look very wide however, the calipers look like they would be tough to fit behind a normal wheel without spacing the wheel center way out from the brakes.
Jimmy will be doing the tube and some of the body work. I will be looking into the various opportunities such as nasa hopefully by spring. I will have to start out in a dangerously low run group however as we want to run the car with its existing suspension before making any changes there. We know its not right as is, but Drew wants to get my input before we decide where exactly to go with springs and shocks. Its way off now with a front rate of 400 lbs/in + a front swaybar, and 250 lbs/in at the rear w/o any additional roll control. I hope to see you out there - I may stop by a few events to get some sense of things before my car is actually done. Nasa time trials and PCA autocrosses are on the list to check out. The local NASA site seemed to be down or something the last time I tried to check things out, I will have to keep on top of it to find the next appropriate event. I would be interested in finding out more about ProAutoSports as well.
Race914 & stownson914 - Thanks for the info on Vehicle Craft - I will look into them and the others mentioned after the holidays.
stownson914 - we were thinking of using the Forged Billet Superlights front and rear as they match my cars existing mounting spread and seem fairly stiff. Is that the model you are using?
As an aside, has anyone seen the new ap racing "radi-calipers"? They were written up in the November Race Tech Magazine. They have a nascar version that was run in a race in prototype form and ran 129 degrees cooler than the usual nascar part. They look very wide however, the calipers look like they would be tough to fit behind a normal wheel without spacing the wheel center way out from the brakes.
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