74 car 2.0
bought pair of 140 lbs. progressive rear springs. car is fitted with stock front and rear sway bars. is spring rate so high that rear sway bar is not needed or desirable? running 195/60/15 tires
thanks.
Full Version: springs vs sway bar
The answer to your question is dependent on how you drive your car.
IMHO: I would venture to guess... if you already have sways fore and aft. KEEP THEM.
If you don't.... Get them.
Then again... I know some middle aged and old guys that think the stock 914 with 35 year old springs ride too hard with Koni's on soft.. (I just don't get that at all) (Me thinks they need to buy an old Cadillac or sumpin)
Clayton
IMHO: I would venture to guess... if you already have sways fore and aft. KEEP THEM.
If you don't.... Get them.
Then again... I know some middle aged and old guys that think the stock 914 with 35 year old springs ride too hard with Koni's on soft.. (I just don't get that at all) (Me thinks they need to buy an old Cadillac or sumpin)
Clayton
Really depends on what you want to do. Are you planning on AXing it? If so you need to go up to about 200lb and ditch the rear sway. If not you may like it.
thank you for responses and will provide more detail in hopes that your comments will follow...
bought car to compete in NW Classic MotorCar Rallye this summer. The three day event (TSD style rallye) usually covers some 7 to 800 miles (on secondary raods) mostly in Oregon and Washington. Have done this a number of times in other cars and now want to have a go in my newly purchased 914. Driving will be spirited. Event is limited to 1974 and earlier cars.
experience (and my own natural lack of ability) has taught me handling and go power do help especially when communication has broken down between me and the navigator.
with the above in mind my specific questions would include:
1. would prefer oversteer to understeer and so would the rear bar and progressive springs combo i have mentioned accomplish this;
2. assume i should leave front alone (am installing turbo tie-rods next week) and not upsize the bar;
3. tires may be dated and want to stay somewhat close to stock appearence and so size (195.60.15) any recommendations;
4. car seems to run ok, but hard to start and the complexity surrounding FI and old wiring has me thinking real hard about webers. I run webers on others cars and have good luck with them;
5. to run the car in the hot time of the year at speed, what do i need to watch for;
many thanks for you comments.
bought car to compete in NW Classic MotorCar Rallye this summer. The three day event (TSD style rallye) usually covers some 7 to 800 miles (on secondary raods) mostly in Oregon and Washington. Have done this a number of times in other cars and now want to have a go in my newly purchased 914. Driving will be spirited. Event is limited to 1974 and earlier cars.
experience (and my own natural lack of ability) has taught me handling and go power do help especially when communication has broken down between me and the navigator.
with the above in mind my specific questions would include:
1. would prefer oversteer to understeer and so would the rear bar and progressive springs combo i have mentioned accomplish this;
2. assume i should leave front alone (am installing turbo tie-rods next week) and not upsize the bar;
3. tires may be dated and want to stay somewhat close to stock appearence and so size (195.60.15) any recommendations;
4. car seems to run ok, but hard to start and the complexity surrounding FI and old wiring has me thinking real hard about webers. I run webers on others cars and have good luck with them;
5. to run the car in the hot time of the year at speed, what do i need to watch for;
many thanks for you comments.
with completely stock setup in the front
stock torsion
stock sway (15mm)
stock shocks (unknown)
stock rear shocks (unknown)
stock rear sway
140# springs
this could give you a whole lot of oversteer. More than you may want. Unless you like a REALLY loose car, especially on 195s.
I think you need to check into what you really have before you start changing things.
what kind of shocks front and rear, and in what condition
how old and really what size your front torsion bars are
after you determine that, consider this.
a very widely used setup for stockish 914 2.0L was as follows
front- Koni adjustables, 19mm adjustbel sway bar, stock torsion bars
rear- Koni adjustables, 140# springs, no rear sway bar.
with this setup you can adjust the handling to what you want either push or loose
(understeer/oversteer)
just throwing springs at what you currently have may not do you any good at all.
find out what you really have before you start adding parts.
I have been AXing and time trialing very basically set up 914s for years and this is one of the setups that worked well for me and many other 914 owners in Norcal.
my 2 cents
stock torsion
stock sway (15mm)
stock shocks (unknown)
stock rear shocks (unknown)
stock rear sway
140# springs
this could give you a whole lot of oversteer. More than you may want. Unless you like a REALLY loose car, especially on 195s.
I think you need to check into what you really have before you start changing things.
what kind of shocks front and rear, and in what condition
how old and really what size your front torsion bars are
after you determine that, consider this.
a very widely used setup for stockish 914 2.0L was as follows
front- Koni adjustables, 19mm adjustbel sway bar, stock torsion bars
rear- Koni adjustables, 140# springs, no rear sway bar.
with this setup you can adjust the handling to what you want either push or loose
(understeer/oversteer)
just throwing springs at what you currently have may not do you any good at all.
find out what you really have before you start adding parts.
I have been AXing and time trialing very basically set up 914s for years and this is one of the setups that worked well for me and many other 914 owners in Norcal.
my 2 cents
A well ballanced sway bar to spring weight would vary by application. To say that one way is better than the other is miss leading since both parts act differently on the car. No matter what you do, we will still love you. 
Long story short...
Get the right spring rate for your application and use Anti-roll (also called "sway") bars to tune.
Get the right spring rate for your application and use Anti-roll (also called "sway") bars to tune.
very much appreciate all the responses.
tried to be specific regarding my application (rallye), so if there is something i need to add pls let me know.
dan-special thanks for your detail. shocks are new KYB and i believe the torson (why do you care about age here, is it the bushings?)and sway bars are stock. car has 85K miles on it.
how would i know if the rear springs are stock?
given the above and my application, would i, as a general matter, be better off replacing the rear springs (w/140 lbs)and removing the rear sway bar.
many thanks again.
tried to be specific regarding my application (rallye), so if there is something i need to add pls let me know.
dan-special thanks for your detail. shocks are new KYB and i believe the torson (why do you care about age here, is it the bushings?)and sway bars are stock. car has 85K miles on it.
how would i know if the rear springs are stock?
given the above and my application, would i, as a general matter, be better off replacing the rear springs (w/140 lbs)and removing the rear sway bar.
many thanks again.
My car came with stock front and rear sway bars. I tried the rear bar with several configurations and it always yielded some nasty over steer. I think the rule of thumb, if you stiffen up the rear you need to stiffen up the front for balance.
I currently have 175 lb rear springs with adjustable perches. Front 22mm adjustable Weltmeister sway bar on mid stiffness. I had the car corner balanced and aligned. Bilstein shocks all around. It's a budget setup which works well. I sold my old sway bars and 100 lb Weltmieister springs and made almost enough to pay for the new setup.
I use to spin often at AXs with my old setup when I pushed it to hard. With the current setup, I have not spun out yet, got to learn to drive faster.
I currently have 175 lb rear springs with adjustable perches. Front 22mm adjustable Weltmeister sway bar on mid stiffness. I had the car corner balanced and aligned. Bilstein shocks all around. It's a budget setup which works well. I sold my old sway bars and 100 lb Weltmieister springs and made almost enough to pay for the new setup.
I use to spin often at AXs with my old setup when I pushed it to hard. With the current setup, I have not spun out yet, got to learn to drive faster.
I really think an adjustable front AR bar is an awesome upgrade. 
My KYBs were old and super stiff, felt every crack in the road. New KONI Yellows on STIFF setting were more comfortable and perform better.
If you plan to race with a load, get your 914 dialed in with that in mind...like spare tire(s) installed, full tank of gas, tool box(es).
Also, not sure what you meant about tires being near stock, but going to low profile (50s) tires will really feel great on the corners. 195/50s reduce gearing a bit, I've had these for 2 yrs and like how it helps my 1.7 out of the corners.
Have fun
My KYBs were old and super stiff, felt every crack in the road. New KONI Yellows on STIFF setting were more comfortable and perform better.
If you plan to race with a load, get your 914 dialed in with that in mind...like spare tire(s) installed, full tank of gas, tool box(es).
Also, not sure what you meant about tires being near stock, but going to low profile (50s) tires will really feel great on the corners. 195/50s reduce gearing a bit, I've had these for 2 yrs and like how it helps my 1.7 out of the corners.
Have fun
woobn8r-great redirect many thanks, i think this answers most of my questions.
chris-tires i am referring to are 195/60/15.
chris-tires i am referring to are 195/60/15.
Lonnie, it seems that if you are specific to vintage TSD rallye especially on the forest roads, stock ride height and suspension travel would be a concern. ( I rallied my 65 GT350 in the PACNW) I will never forget a friend in college with a 240Z at a weekend rallye teasing me about my lowered road race setup. He promptly smoked me through the open time trial. Hmmm 914 rallye, Larry
larry-NW Classic Rallye is limited to paved roads and similar to the Mille Miglia, Copper State 1000, etc. It does happen, however that we do occassionally find ourselves on paved forest service and/or private roads and speeds there can be brisk.
On the Rallye some 5 or 6 years ago, navigating an 64 cobra through an uneven paved forest service road, i remember very clearly being passed, with blinding speed, by a mini moke. We were in a very original 64 ac cobra (289 ) which kept bottoming out on the exhaust. The moke, sporting a built 1275, very trick 5-sp and weighing in, at most, 1400 lbs. happily bounced down the road, at speed.
More often that not however it is the driver or rather his skills or sometimes his wallet, which dictates the advantage. three years ago, while on a special stage in the Rallye, i remember very clearly being passed (with some authority) by Monte Shelton, the sponsor of the NW Classic Rallye, who ownes Monte Shelton Motors, and is a very accomplished driver in his own right (i believe it was this same year he competed in the Rose Cup Race in his 935). Monte was drive his slightly modified/uprated Super 90, i was drivng my restored 1966 Corvette big block vintage Race car...to add insult in injury two years ago, i had the corvette at the Forest Grove Concours, competing in the Race Car Class, one of the judges was of course Monte, who reminded of the rallye a year easlier.
sorry, did not mean to go on, but your point is very well take, just becasue you have a big gun does not mean you know how to use it.
On the Rallye some 5 or 6 years ago, navigating an 64 cobra through an uneven paved forest service road, i remember very clearly being passed, with blinding speed, by a mini moke. We were in a very original 64 ac cobra (289 ) which kept bottoming out on the exhaust. The moke, sporting a built 1275, very trick 5-sp and weighing in, at most, 1400 lbs. happily bounced down the road, at speed.
More often that not however it is the driver or rather his skills or sometimes his wallet, which dictates the advantage. three years ago, while on a special stage in the Rallye, i remember very clearly being passed (with some authority) by Monte Shelton, the sponsor of the NW Classic Rallye, who ownes Monte Shelton Motors, and is a very accomplished driver in his own right (i believe it was this same year he competed in the Rose Cup Race in his 935). Monte was drive his slightly modified/uprated Super 90, i was drivng my restored 1966 Corvette big block vintage Race car...to add insult in injury two years ago, i had the corvette at the Forest Grove Concours, competing in the Race Car Class, one of the judges was of course Monte, who reminded of the rallye a year easlier.
sorry, did not mean to go on, but your point is very well take, just becasue you have a big gun does not mean you know how to use it.
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