New AA catalog has a "fuel injection competition kit"

http://autoatlanta.com/model/914-0704/Sec2/914-page034.html


claiming a 35HP increase with no other engine modifications noted....

How can just replacing the injection give this much more power to a otherwise stock type 4?

I just spent lots of time and some $$ to get 15-20 hp out of my 2056 with lots of other associated tweeks.

this is not a flame job, I just don't get it.

Ask yourself: Are they salesmen? Are their lips moving?

The Cap'n

yes,,,,,and no.

Ditto. Not wanting to , or

I just want to hear the facts on this one. Anybody out there who has it?

Ask cb performance it is their kit and their spiel ! Notice that it is not in our new catalog!!!!!!!

Cost is $85 per horsepower per the claimed increase.

If I had a stock motor, I'd make a deal with George: I'll dyno my car before and after, and they pay $85 for each actual increase in hp that I realize. My bet is that I get fewer than 10hp.

Course, I've already documented that I can get 4hp be relocating the stock air intake - so that's $342 worth of horsepower that I got for $4.

edit: typed this before George's comment. Still applies - just to CB Performance I guess.

George,
As long as you brought it up... You do have an efi kit in your new catalog. What is 411 on that? What sensors does it use and just how good is it?

Yes it is. I was just looking at that very page of the printed catalog this morning.

regardless of whether it is in the catalog now, it was at one point....so what is the scoop? or is it all Poop?

Agreed.

I got the catalogue (nice catalogue AGAIN btw), in the mail Nov-ish 2007. George, what are the facts on this upgrage? Still asking, anyone out there who has done it??

I'd be happy to offer the lab to George for some power/efficiency numbers...

And we could do a back to back on his kit Vs my EFI retrofit assembly :-)

I'd be able to do it in April...

I don't know about that kit. I do know that when I had larger injector put in my Mack it took the HP from 350 to 437HP.

I feel sooooo left out as those snazzy new books didn't come to Canada

S.

if i read it right, 48mm venturis? how a stock cam and heads could support them, and produce the hp + claim, within the STOCK rpm range seems...odd.

An FI engine can use a larger TB with only a loss in throttle response off the line..

The TB doesn't meter fuel and air- just fuel and there are no venturis..

That said, I don't use a 48mm TB unless the engine is larger than 2.8L, the CB kit is for a TI engine that loves volume- the TIV loves velocity..

if it's on your website/in your catalog, it's your responsibility. You can't pass the buck to CB Performance.

And, as Gint mentioned, it's on page 31 of the new catalog. Two line post with two lines of BS. Come on. What a f-ing joke.

And as to the original question: I don't believe for a second that you can achieve any significant HP improvement without a cam change. $3000 for junk. That really pisses me off.

and there you go

No update from AA yet???

How do you respond to that as such improvement is seemingly impossible?

Hey, its in his catalogue.... without I want to hear AA back it up or retract it.

The silence so far is making me

Clearly the other part of this 125 HP kit was left out of the catalog by mistake. LOL!

say you built a 2270 and put your stock injection back on it....
still weren't happy..
so you bought his kit.

35 more hp ?

uhm, not to state the obvious or anything ...

george is a *reseller* ... if anybody has any obligation to proof or retract anything, it has to be the manufacturer ...

it can't be the resellers responsibility to invest his own hard earned money to proof or disproof a manufacturers claims ...

demanding that from george is just nuts!


how about you guys direct your anger towards the manufacturer instead?
look, i even provide you with a link to their website:
http://www.cbperformance.com/

now fire away ...
Andy

Well said Andy!

Walk into your local drugstore & go to the fat person section. There are dozens of products that "promise" huge losses (as opposed to gains). The store is a marketer of products that may, or may not, be popular. If they sell, they'll stay on the shelf. If they tank, bye-bye.

It's called marketing and free enterprise. Doubt the product - walk away. It's your dollars and sense (not misspelled)! Let the buyer beware!
Pat

so a reseller doesn't have any obligation to make sure the products it sells meet some minimum standards?
If you are selling an item that is making a claimed performance improvement, shouldn't those claims be vetted some how? Like using common sense.
If he sold any of these upgrades he surely made a profit from it.
And George has been around this game long enough, and should be able smell a rat.

I do see your point though Pat.

truth is relative.

the talk of mfr v. reseller becomes a bunch of finger pointing BS. I managed a performance shop with world-wide sales and we had a catalog as well, that I helped lay out and proof read... and I see a glaring issue with the online ad that burns my ass every time.

1. We were a reseller of numerous parts.
2. I never ONCE put an add out not saying who the mfr was of the resold parts. They just did. I don't see anywhere anything about CB Perf in the ad.
3. What is implied?? I read that ad and I believed it was THEIR kit from their wording. Hey, I was a reseller but we also sold our own "kits" made up of a variety of resold parts that we did in fact piece together ourselves, dyno and could provide numbers.
3a. so when I showed MAC headers in the catalog, I stated clearly they were MAC headers (in fact I always used the Trademarked "label" of the company in the ad to be clear where they came from. Any claims I clearly stated "MAC claims 35-50HP (or whatever the range was) for the headers below". Then a customer new who made it, what they claimed they did, and that I was disassociated from them.
3b. If we actually did happen to dyno test a product with our engine design, then we would also state "on our blah blah (engine descrip) we made xx HP/xx TQ on the dyno with PN#### headers

Fact is, when you don't make it clear where it originates from, then pass the buck, that is even WORSE. Here all that time I thought my job as a reseller was to assure the potential customer to buy shit, not tell them to talk to the mfr. Funny, must be why the sales were up 38% from previous over the 4yrs I was there and managed that place and why they were down and hurting 5yrs after I left with my engineering degree... the catalog especially has gone downhill with BS just like being talked about here.

Purchase, promote and substantiate, resell for more and make money. Pretty simple biz model to me, so hard to find anymore. I gotta say, Patrick Motorsports was a PITA years ago but I have bought from him and Pelican the last 7yrs consistently. Pelican was slow to react and I was hung up on hold the other day, so just called Patrick and wham bam stuff is handled, they WORKED with me on breaking open a "kit" to sell me only what I needed... Jim really figured it out a few years ago and look at his growth and reputation in recent years! Total 180. Funny, I went back to him after issues with AA and Pelican was outta stock. A pinch reintroduced him to me and customer service has been STELLAR. Ask HIM a ? about what he resells and see if you get the same run around.......

I go thru all this just with that glimmer of hope George catches on, cuz I do believe he is into these cars and parts get harder and harder to get. But, everytime it seems it is never to par.

To: George

From: Clayton

RE: Solution


I will re-write your add for the above mentioned kit gratis.

It will be spot on correct, honest and have a solid sales approach.

Several of the folks in this thread will get a copy of the text for proofing.
Then submission directly to you upon completion for further proofing.

Even though your existing catalog has the existing add.
Your sales staff can be given the "NEW" more up to date copy,
to reference customers needing more explanatory (and accurate) data.

Your thoughts?

Clayton

for folks that stuggle with carb linkages, i can ASSURE you their good running fi cars will run WORSE after installing that fi package. still have to have that balanced side to side flow.

k

There's no anger... just the 5th time I've asked for AA to back it up or retract it. Its still a nice catalogue.

To your point, the mfr is responsible for things to work as expected, but a reseller also has a responsibility to protect its customers, especially one that is making a claim of 35 extra HP!

I'm not asking George or AA to spend ANY money, but perhaps they could do what I am doing here... like asking for proof, an example, someone who has done it, a spreadsheet, hello.... like something a customer might ask for....

That's reasonable.

There's no point of bashing anyone, I want the truth -- DOES IT WORK???

i bet you buy more than a handful of products each week that make all kinds of claims and i doubt you ask the reseller each time to provide you with "proof" that their product actually delivers those claims.


did you ask your pastor for proof that god exists last time he claimed that there is a heaven?

did you ask for proof from a real customer last time you asked your doctor for viagra?


come on guys, get real. please. you all sound awfully hypocritical here ...
Andy

ok, how about a more "real world" example ...

according to your logic:

========================
when you go down to your local 7/11 and buy a pack of rogaine, you expect Apu, the owner of the franchise, to provide you with a real world example of someone who actually used this product.
further, you demand Apu to personally get involved in providing you that information.
you tell him that if he can't get you a real customer testimony, you expect him to test it himself (!) or contact "McNEIL-PPC" (the manufacturer of rogaine) and have them provide you with "proof".

and if Apu denies your request or is unable to provide you with that information, you publicly demand for him to remove the product from his store.
========================


i'm sorry, but that just sounds nuts to me ...
Andy

Andy everything you talk about is organic.

They are asking about mechanical things. Which can be proven to a certain degree of accurancy. Organic things vary from person to person.

Not trying to piss anyone off but compare apples to apples.

I think the real world equivalent is more like when Apu takes the penis enlargement pills and repackages it as his own, and then puts up his own sign about what it will do for you (despite being copied directly from the OEM bottle). And then only when questioned directly about the far-fetched benefits, does he claim ignorance and refer you to the original manufacturer.

Huh?

I'm not asking about Viagra, God, or theorizing about a company's responsibility for the products it sells.

I want to know from AA or anyone else -does it work? and YES, AA should know. After all AA sells it in an AA catalogue, AND calls it an AA "Exclusive", and would I'm assuming make a profit in selling it.

Does it work? Yes or No.

But again, to Andy, the manufacturer isn't to blame, its the raw material supplier, or no, maybe its God for making raw materials, or perhaps its the air that doesn't flow in nature fast enough. (I don't mind getting disagreed with at all)

If you don't think it will work, don't buy it.

so, because he didn't mention the manufacturer for the product, would you still publicly ask him to test the penis enlargement pills on himself and show you the results ???
Andy

If his advertisement implies that it is his own product, then yes, he should be able to back up his claims.

please show me where it implies that this is a AA manufactured product ...
http://autoatlanta.com/model/914-0704/Sec2/914-page034.html

are you really that naive to believe that a parts house like AA manufactures *ALL* the products they sell ???
Andy

I like Jakes response. Put it to the test. It would benifit AA in the long run either with sales or as a reputable business trying to provide the BEST products. George could then sell the unit at a lower price as a "used" unit, or write it off as a business expense.

Of course it's not a good idea to put a $3000 part in your 914 catalog, when you KNOW for darn sure it does not come close to delivering what is promised.

George recognizes that, that's why he posted "Notice that it is not in our new catalog!!!!!!!" Implicit in that statement is "we realized it didn't deliver, so we took it out."

This isn't 7-11. When you hold yourself out to be an expert in an area, and you put together a catalog, people are going to rely on your expertise, at least to some extent. George, in is catalog, invites people to rely on his expertise.

Duh.

Except it *is* in the new catalog. Page 31

And to Andy's point in his last post, the web catalog does not explicitly say AA makes the product or anything. But the printed catalog ad does imply that, and doesn't say anything to make the reader think otherwise. Phrases like (direct quotes) "An Auto Atlanta Exclusive!" and "our kit is a direct bolt-on".

I personally am not angry about any of this. But I would like to hear what George has to say about it. So far, given the context of the ad and the comment he did make, I'm not inspired to order from AA. And it's damn shame, because I can appreciate his obvious love for the 914 and his willingness to keep producing or promoting others to produce parts for the it.

Yeah, that makes his post on the first page a bit awkward.

Here's word for word what p.31 of the NEW AA catalogue says:

"An Auto Atlanta Exclusive... This is the system that gives your engine that full on competition look and the performance to go with it. Power gain from stock 90HP to 125 HP. The fuel injectors and custom ribbed fuel rails are highly visible in their outboard location. Extreme Fuel Injection is the perfect upgrade for the meager 914 engine. The biggest performance limiter was the 914's intake plenum. Its small size starved this engine of air and did not allow for aggressive fuel injection or higher compression. Our kit provides plenty of air flow! Each kit is shipped with 48mm throttle bodies, injectors, fuel rails, manifolds, air filters, throttle linkage, computer, wiring harness, fuel pump, pressure regulator, threaded fuel rails, complete wiring, coil pack, instruction booklet and, last but not least, our exclusine AA crank fire distributor. Our kit is direct bolt on done by the home hobbist in about four hours.

Extreme Fuel Injection Kit BMB31431 $2,950.00"

Again, not looking to rip AA or any bother like that. I want to see the facts and understand how this is legit., or not. With thousands of members on this site, someone has to know where this is coming from.....

the only way that I could see it working would be allowing the use of a much more aggressive cam, or working as injection for a 2056.

I could see this kit making a few ponies over stock, but not the 35hp without internal engine changes.

Zach

Lets talk about this from a business perspective.

Who has a catalog dedicated to JUST 914's.
Who has been selling this stuff for JUST 914 for years?

I think you guys need something better to talk about.
George got on here, cleaned up his reputation as a result.
All you are doing is just looking for a reason to give George shit.

If you dont want to do business with a vendor, then dont.
But please, dont start threads just to rag on a vendor.

If that is the common reason for this forum, I have a long list of issues with vendors.
Lets talk about who of all the vendors we know has parts on the shelf.
Real parts, on the shelf.

Who has a person that answers the phone and actually knows what a 914 is?
How about the difference between D-jet and L-jet???

Geez, this is the one single vendor that has stuck with the 914, even though everyone rags on him.

PP makes more money on BMW...think they have employees that love 914 anymore?? doubt it.

The vendor list is not growing guys, its shrinking...the market for these cars is shrinking.

Stop trying to find a reason to beat up George, its childish.

Sir Andy, I asked for proof and got a long lecture that I tuned out after the line "well son...."

Rich

That's one man's opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

But asking a vendor to support his advertising claims is not an outrageous request.

Rich, you make some excellent points about supporting a guy who lives breathes and makes a go of 914s. Well put. Most would agree with your line of reasoning.

The catalogue is great. I very much have enjoyed going through it, and George willing, I'll likely have a need real soon to use it. I am very willing to help George make a living with my hard earned dollars.

We all love 914s.

The ONLY point of this thread, repeated OVER and OVER, is whether the AA exclusive HP gain kit is for real or not.

While implications and imaginations have gone wild here.... all I want to know is The Truth

Why? because if George loves 914s and is dedicated to them like the many many people I've met here through the years, I fully expect him or someone to explain how this thing works.

Agreed.... Let's not beat up George, but I still want an answer.....

Oh... and maybe it is for real.

Rob

It's not for real. We all know it's not for real. And George has already sort-of admitted that and tried to distance himself from it. I expect the reason we haven't heard him reply again is because he has not checked back (he probably has more important things to do than hang out here), and/or the stupid name on this thread doesn't grab his attention as something he ought to read.