OK. I was following this thread in the Garage and there was no definitive answer as to what seats will pass the new rules for the ant-submarine strap. It seems like a lot of people are going to have to replace their existing seats. I thought it might be a good thing to have one place for the "official" list.

Question #1: Do you still need a new seat if you use a six point belt instead of a five point?

Question #2: What seats are both approved and fit the 914?

this won't answer your question, but will probably bring more questions.

this is from the PCA National DE Minimum Standards

it doesn't tell you what fits, or any particular seat that is legal. It just gives you the parameters for choosing a seat (actually both seats) since the passenger and driver must have equivalent seats and harnesses/belts

Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5 or 6 point driving harness ( four point systems are not safe and therefore not allowed) several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include a antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.

I've read that several times as I'm sure many others have. It seems absurd that you can run with a stock seatbelt and shoulder harness arrangement but a 5 point harness without a hole in the seat is unsafe. But that's another topic of discussion.

The question remains, what legal seats will fit in our cars?

I had Corbeau Forzas in my car. they fit, but sit a bit higher if you use the stock sliders. I am sure you can mount it lower if needed. The Forzas have the correct holes for shoulder and sub strap. It is interesting that in the new rules they say nothing about holes for the lap belts...probably so the folks with big $$$ cars can run stock GT3 seats.

I am sure there are other manufacturers seats that are similar to the Corbeaus in size and fit. The only other thing you probably have to do with the Forzas is to remove the back pad if you want the seat to go back further.

As far as the 3 point belts and seats. Here is my thought process. National is trying to hang all the liability of the whole seat/belt thing on the manufacturers. Notice they say the harnesses must be installed per the manufact's instructions. They don't tell you how to do it the original manufact. must.
Also if you use a DOT tested and approved 3point/stock seat you are hanging the liability on the Car manufacturer.

The part I don't like is if you use a 5-6 point system it must be replaced every 5 years. But if you use a stock seat/belt set up there is no replacement time. We all know they are made up of the same materials...
But there are no SFI dates on stock belts.

i just got a set of the Sparco Evo L seats ... i have yet to mount them, but a initial test fit shows that they'll fit just fine.

however, i will remove the stock seat rails and hinges and weld in two steel crossbar reinforcements for the sparco mounting brackets.

that will move the seats closer to the floor, giving me more headroom ...
Andy

Regarding the new rules out there the but best I can determine is:

1) Why would any DE sanctioning body NOT approve of the factory, DOT approved system? They wouldn't. Hence, your 35 year old stock seat and belts are allowed. (They may not be encouraged, or the safest, but they are allowed)

2) Obviously some kind of push by the providers of the insurance that PCA/POC and others use also was a reason to more clearly define, in a broad measure, what is acceptable, rather than a case by case study by those who might not be as well informed.

3) Harnesses (5/6pt) only truly work effectively with a seat designed for them. No factory porsche seat (GT3 seat being the exception) can safely accomodate a harness application. The built in headrests of nearly all porsche seats do not allow for the belts to rest properly on your shoulders. It really wont take much of an impact (frontal lets say) to cause the belts to spread and send you into your steering wheel.

4) Situations/approaches that fall between Stock and Race seat w/harnesses are half assed and subject an occupant (driver, instructor, student) to more hazzards.

That said, there will be few, if any, seats that meet the requirements without SOME fabrication or modification to your car.

- Mounting points for seats will need to be addressed/fabricated, strenghtened
- mounting points for harnesses will need to be addressed/fabricated to work in conjunction with both SEAT and belt Manufacturers guideline.
- Potential removal or modification of the upholstered back pad may be necessary in 914 applications


Now, since you will need to fabricate mounting points, you will learn that nearly any "race"type seats that meets the PCA/POC rules can be made to fit

Corbeau; Recaro; Kirkey; Sparco all come quickly to mind and I am sure there many others.

Perhaps the only "stock" looking seat I can think of that may work comes from GTS seats.


No doubt the reason for frequent re-webbing/replacement has to due with

1) Stretch
2) Mild uses (under heavy braking will slowly stretch the belt for instance)
3) UV degredation is a big reason

I forget what year it was.. 2002 or so, SCCA had a great article about seatbelts. They studied and learned that a belt looses about 50% of its effectiveness (as a restraint - its ability to absorb energy etc) within TWO YEARS!.

I think the real issue is the MENTAL side. If you spend $500-1000-1500 year on tires, is it really that much of a deal to spend comparable money once every 5-10 years on your personal safety?

I denied the need for a correct seat/harness system for years. But when you realize a fatal accident can happen at speeds as low as 30mph, why not protect yourself?


For me? I'm getting some Kirkeys installed to go with new 6pt belts, high density padding for the rollbar too.

Is anyone running an OMP RS seat?



I have an OMP ECO seat now and really like it, but only has 4 seat belt slots so I can't run with PCA...



OMP Seats

Anyone running a Kirkey Intermediate Road Racing seat? If so any likes or dislikes?

nope and nope ...


sorry, not much help here. i'll let you know how the Evo's work out once i get some seattime in them ...
Andy

I had my seat bolted to the floor, discovered the floors were bending.
I just finished adding two 3/4" square tubes from center tunnel to Engman enhanced Long. Now I am bolting slider through floor and tube to make a WAY more secure seat.

Oh I cut out the stock brace infront of the seat LONG ago.
I have Sparco seats.

I'm running the intermediate layback bolted directly to the floor with shoulder and head restraints. Very comfortable. An hour in it is no problem. But if the seat fits right you can't gain weight or get out of shape or you'll never get into it. Mine is very snug.
The only disadvantage is with the helmet restraints its a real pain to get in and out of the car. Makes we want to cut the windshield off
Kart 54
SCCA G production-Cal Club

I am having Kirkeys installed later this month. A friend has them in his 911 and I found them very comfortable and supportive. More comfort to me than, say, Sparco Evo "largeass" models. I am a bit "wide" and will run one sixe for me and a narrower one for the passenger seat.

I am worried that the size of the sidebolster may necessitate a switch to a removeable steering wheel though

I have one in the red car. Love it. The steering wheel clearance is an issue getting in and out, I have to push the seat all the way back. It's mounted to the sliders so my wife can drive it. Solid, good seat, you can spend more and get more, but this one is real good.

I had one in my old GTI track car - very nice well made and safe seat. Some jerk stole it (along with my friends car it was in at the time - he liked it too )

My seat is a 15" Kirkey. I am 5' 10", 170 lbs and have a 34" waist; the seat is very snug, but it is very nice because it holds me very still when driving. I also purchased two Kirkey mounting brackets. I attached the back to the stock floor hinge (there are two holes in them, I only had room for one bolt for each); the front I mounted through the box beam, all the way through the bottom and attached with large washers and a locking nut. I used two bolts for each bracket in the front mount; one of the holes predrilled into the bracket matched up perfectly with two holes that were already in the box beam. I also attached the anti sub belt to that box beam in the same manner.

I did this on advice from the owner of American Racing Suppy here in Las Vegas (www.americanracingsupply.com).

My biggest challenge is getting the correct angle of the shoulder harnesses from my shoulder to the point at which they are secured to the car.

I am also told that I need a seat back brace between the horizontal bar just below the back window and the back of the seat. A couple of drivers from the POC and PCA said a home frabricated piece made from materials available at Home Depot will do just right.

Click to view attachment

That Kirkey there with the red cover looks like the Pro Drag model. Is that right?
It is cheaper than the Road Race seat and is the one currently on my saved JEGS wish list. Have you been road racing or AXing with that seat? I'm wondering if the lack of shoulder supports is noticeable on the track.

Konig makes a great seat just for 914's. I run them in both my club race car, and our Targa Newfoundland/street car (once it gets rebuilt). Very comfortable, lightweight, and pretty easy to install without a lot of modifications...

Now, the bad part. It's my understanding that the Konig sliders are not available, or EXTREMELY expensive. I got a set of generic ones from the supplier and had to redrill a few mounting holes on them to fit the seats, but not a big deal.

I need slider because my wife drives with the seat up somewhere near the hood badge, and I have the seat against the rear firewall....

Anyway, i get them from Stable Energies. Ask Bob about seats and fits, he has been racing a 914 forever, and knows them very well.

Konig makes a great seat just for 914's. I run them in both my club race car, and our Targa Newfoundland/street car (once it gets rebuilt). Very comfortable, lightweight, and pretty easy to install without a lot of modifications...

Now, the bad part. It's my understanding that the Konig sliders are not available, or EXTREMELY expensive. I got a set of generic ones from the supplier and had to redrill a few mounting holes on them to fit the seats, but not a big deal.

I need slider because my wife drives with the seat up somewhere near the hood badge, and I have the seat against the rear firewall....

Anyway, i get them from Stable Energies. Ask Bob about seats and fits, he has been racing a 914 forever, and knows them very well. www.stable-energies.com

Hope that helps...